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Post by baggins on Sept 24, 2020 12:48:17 GMT
Replying to the thread title... If what i understand to be correct that we want to play possession based, high tempo, exciting and entertaining football and you traded me some more poor results while the club and its philosophy transitions to anything like the example Leeds show in this video, i'll take it. Notice that they are behind for most of the match, but the shape and the style and their identity remains their sole purpose and each and every one of them have bought into it knowing they will be ok. Look at the way the midfield drop to get the ball off the defense and if the pass isn't on the player returns to midfield and another midfielder drops... looks so fluid (yes i know its sped up a bit for dramatic effect). Also admire the bite and speed in the pressing when the ball is lost, turn over after turn over. Also watch the deepest defender get the ball and then drive forward with it into the opposition half. If it takes time, and I'm sure it does to get the mindsets and belief in the system, just imagine the entertainment it could produce. I strongly believe this is the project, the longer term project for Bristol Rovers football club Be interested in your thoughts (also interesting to note that Leeds (on paper) play 4-3-3 formation although its always so fluid with rotations and player role switches at high speeds) Jeez, look how many players they get ahead of the ball. Most moves end with 5 or 6 in the penalty area! Our midfield would be gently trotting to the half way line just about then.
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Post by goodnightirene1883 on Sept 24, 2020 13:48:06 GMT
Replying to the thread title... If what i understand to be correct that we want to play possession based, high tempo, exciting and entertaining football and you traded me some more poor results while the club and its philosophy transitions to anything like the example Leeds show in this video, i'll take it. Notice that they are behind for most of the match, but the shape and the style and their identity remains their sole purpose and each and every one of them have bought into it knowing they will be ok. Look at the way the midfield drop to get the ball off the defense and if the pass isn't on the player returns to midfield and another midfielder drops... looks so fluid (yes i know its sped up a bit for dramatic effect). Also admire the bite and speed in the pressing when the ball is lost, turn over after turn over. Also watch the deepest defender get the ball and then drive forward with it into the opposition half. If it takes time, and I'm sure it does to get the mindsets and belief in the system, just imagine the entertainment it could produce. I strongly believe this is the project, the longer term project for Bristol Rovers football club Be interested in your thoughts (also interesting to note that Leeds (on paper) play 4-3-3 formation although its always so fluid with rotations and player role switches at high speeds) Jeez, look how many players they get ahead of the ball. Most moves end with 5 or 6 in the penalty area! It's quite amazing isnt it. I found another example... look how high the wingback are ALL the time I guess the play here is imposing your game on the opponent. There are some real big challenges going in tho, so thats part of our game what we need to up 1000% to get us playing anyway near this in my opinion
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Post by lpgas1 on Sept 24, 2020 15:44:13 GMT
I would actually say that not reinvesting all of JCH’s money on a replacement is a sensible thing to do this summer. Right now, especially with the news that the return of spectators is going to be put on hold, surviving will be a success for the football club and the JCH money will give Rovers an advantage over other teams in that regard. They could have re invested some of it though
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Post by lpgas1 on Sept 24, 2020 15:46:40 GMT
Replying to the thread title... If what i understand to be correct that we want to play possession based, high tempo, exciting and entertaining football and you traded me some more poor results while the club and its philosophy transitions to anything like the example Leeds show in this video, i'll take it. Notice that they are behind for most of the match, but the shape and the style and their identity remains their sole purpose and each and every one of them have bought into it knowing they will be ok. Look at the way the midfield drop to get the ball off the defense and if the pass isn't on the player returns to midfield and another midfielder drops... looks so fluid (yes i know its sped up a bit for dramatic effect). Also admire the bite and speed in the pressing when the ball is lost, turn over after turn over. Also watch the deepest defender get the ball and then drive forward with it into the opposition half. If it takes time, and I'm sure it does to get the mindsets and belief in the system, just imagine the entertainment it could produce. I strongly believe this is the project, the longer term project for Bristol Rovers football club Be interested in your thoughts (also interesting to note that Leeds (on paper) play 4-3-3 formation although its always so fluid with rotations and player role switches at high speeds) Millwall playing too deep. However with Leeds going forward, one long ball from Millwall could catch them all out. By the way it is the championship. We are in Div 1 Jeez, look how many players they get ahead of the ball. Most moves end with 5 or 6 in the penalty area!
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Post by landrover on Sept 24, 2020 16:44:12 GMT
I’m sorry to rain on your parade but why are you showing a (now) premiership team whose individual abilities are far and away superior to our players. I know they’re all called professional footballers but you’re dreaming if you think third division wages gets you players with a brilliant football brain and a touch to match. This is madness and could well end up with relegation. I’ve been saying this from the outset and absolutely nothing has changed my view. Why would it?
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Post by LJG on Sept 25, 2020 9:05:23 GMT
I would actually say that not reinvesting all of JCH’s money on a replacement is a sensible thing to do this summer. Right now, especially with the news that the return of spectators is going to be put on hold, surviving will be a success for the football club and the JCH money will give Rovers an advantage over other teams in that regard. They could have re invested some of it though Haven't we made 7 new signings this summer? Or did I dream that?
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Post by socrates on Sept 25, 2020 9:25:38 GMT
Jeez, look how many players they get ahead of the ball. Most moves end with 5 or 6 in the penalty area! It's quite amazing isnt it. I found another example... look how high the wingback are ALL the time I guess the play here is imposing your game on the opponent. There are some real big challenges going in tho, so thats part of our game what we need to up 1000% to get us playing anyway near this in my opinion Leeds had probably the best squad in the championship last season thst helps too. Garner is maybe trying to get us to dominate sides like Leeds do in that video but for that you need mobile players that can play thst way. Our midfield including new signings Grant and Westbrooke are slow and that isn’t go to change this season. I honestly think we don’t have the kind of players to play a high fluid pressing game. Also when you play that way you play with a high defensive line and for that to be successful you need at least one agile very quick central defender which we haven’t got from what I’ve seen so far. Our squad is all wrong for a high press.
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Post by WeAreTheGas on Sept 25, 2020 9:31:44 GMT
It's quite amazing isnt it. I found another example... look how high the wingback are ALL the time I guess the play here is imposing your game on the opponent. There are some real big challenges going in tho, so thats part of our game what we need to up 1000% to get us playing anyway near this in my opinion Leeds had probably the best squad in the championship last season thst helps too. Garner is maybe trying to get us to dominate sides like Leeds do in that video but for that you need mobile players that can play thst way. Our midfield including new signings Grant and Westbrooke are slow and that isn’t go to change this season. I honestly think we don’t have the kind of players to play a high fluid pressing game. Also when you play that way you play with a high defensive line and for that to be successful you need at least one agile very quick central defender which we haven’t got from what I’ve seen so far. Our squad is all wrong for a high press. Agree with all of that. I’m very surprised we didn’t bring in at least one CB with a good turn of pace, and also signed two slow CMs to often battle against three opposition CMs in the middle of the park. As you say, Leeds can press so ferociously for 90 minutes because they have pace, energy & dynamism all over the pitch. We don’t in two of the most key areas. I’m no more confident in us being able to successfully play a high defensive line than I was when Craig & Menayese were here, and Grant & Westbrooke both need legs around them.
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Post by socrates on Sept 25, 2020 9:39:00 GMT
Leeds had probably the best squad in the championship last season thst helps too. Garner is maybe trying to get us to dominate sides like Leeds do in that video but for that you need mobile players that can play thst way. Our midfield including new signings Grant and Westbrooke are slow and that isn’t go to change this season. I honestly think we don’t have the kind of players to play a high fluid pressing game. Also when you play that way you play with a high defensive line and for that to be successful you need at least one agile very quick central defender which we haven’t got from what I’ve seen so far. Our squad is all wrong for a high press. Agree with all of that. I’m very surprised we didn’t bring in at least one CB with a good turn of pace, and also signed two slow CMs to often battle against three opposition CMs in the middle of the park. As you say, Leeds can press so ferociously for 90 minutes because they have pace, energy & dynamism all over the pitch. We don’t in two of the most key areas. I’m no more confident in us being able to successfully play a high defensive line than I was when Craig & Menayese were here, and Grant & Westbrooke both need legs around them. I think Hargreaves could play that way as a number 10 in a 4-2-3-1 Where the 4 attacking players press and attack whilst the 2 holding midfielders sit deeper and cover the defence and any fullbacks that get caught out up the pitch when we lose possession. If we’re going to press high up then that would probably be the formation to go with. Hargreaves looks the only midfielder with the pace and energy at the club capable of playing this way perhaps Mehew too I’ve only seen him once and his energy and mobility was very good. We would still need a ball winner to play in the defensive midfield position though and with Ogogo out of favour and Grant seemingly so far not a ballwinner that the one type of player we need IMO. Alongside that ballwinner could be either Westbrooke or Upson playing as a deep laying playmaker. It would give us more balance in midfield than just sticking 2 or 3 very similar players in centre midfield as we’ve done so far.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 9:51:15 GMT
It's quite amazing isnt it. I found another example... look how high the wingback are ALL the time I guess the play here is imposing your game on the opponent. There are some real big challenges going in tho, so thats part of our game what we need to up 1000% to get us playing anyway near this in my opinion Leeds had probably the best squad in the championship last season thst helps too. Garner is maybe trying to get us to dominate sides like Leeds do in that video but for that you need mobile players that can play thst way. Our midfield including new signings Grant and Westbrooke are slow and that isn’t go to change this season. I honestly think we don’t have the kind of players to play a high fluid pressing game. Also when you play that way you play with a high defensive line and for that to be successful you need at least one agile very quick central defender which we haven’t got from what I’ve seen so far. Our squad is all wrong for a high press. My big concern with Garner is similar in that Garner is a PlayStation coach who has watched a video like this and thought “yeah that’s my philosophy!” without giving much thought to what the specific components are that you need to make it work. I feel he has also under-estimated league one and that to him coming from Premiership academies he sees the lower leagues as a bunch of uncultured neophytes who he is going to educate in the way Bielsa did with his approach at Leeds when actually the lower leagues are the way they are because canny operators have learned to adapt to the technical deficiencies of the players and turn them into strengths rather than try and turn league one into a diet version of the premiership. Teams have had success playing progressive football down here but it isn’t a regular occurrence for a reason- it takes both coaching nous and a scouting network that can identify such players at low cost. It’s almost a perfect storm of elements- even the bigger clubs in our league aren’t known for playing the best football despite their budget.
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Post by socrates on Sept 25, 2020 10:01:36 GMT
Leeds had probably the best squad in the championship last season thst helps too. Garner is maybe trying to get us to dominate sides like Leeds do in that video but for that you need mobile players that can play thst way. Our midfield including new signings Grant and Westbrooke are slow and that isn’t go to change this season. I honestly think we don’t have the kind of players to play a high fluid pressing game. Also when you play that way you play with a high defensive line and for that to be successful you need at least one agile very quick central defender which we haven’t got from what I’ve seen so far. Our squad is all wrong for a high press. My big concern with Garner is similar in that Garner is a PlayStation coach who has watched a video like this and thought “yeah that’s my philosophy!” without giving much thought to what the specific components are that you need to make it work. I feel he has also under-estimated league one and that to him coming from Premiership academies he sees the lower leagues as a bunch of uncultured neophytes who he is going to educate in the way Bielsa did with his approach at Leeds when actually the lower leagues are the way they are because canny operators have learned to adapt to the technical deficiencies of the players and turn them into strengths rather than try and turn league one into a diet version of the premiership. Teams have had success playing progressive football down here but it isn’t a regular occurrence for a reason- it takes both coaching nous and a scouting network that can identify such players at low cost. It’s almost a perfect storm of elements- even the bigger clubs in our league aren’t known for playing the best football despite their budget. Agree with all of this. Most promotion winning league 1 sides are strong and quick horrible teams to play against with plenty in there who can get stuck in and whilst some are good on the eye they still tend to be quite direct in the sense of how many passes from back to front to create goal scoring opportunities. The 1-2 defeat v league winners Coventry being a good example of this , both of their goals were very direct quick passing play with high tempo. They didn’t try to pass us to death they went for the jugular and that’s typical of a league 1 promotion side.
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Post by reason on Sept 25, 2020 11:10:59 GMT
My big concern with Garner is similar in that Garner is a PlayStation coach who has watched a video like this and thought “yeah that’s my philosophy!” without giving much thought to what the specific components are that you need to make it work. I feel he has also under-estimated league one and that to him coming from Premiership academies he sees the lower leagues as a bunch of uncultured neophytes who he is going to educate in the way Bielsa did with his approach at Leeds when actually the lower leagues are the way they are because canny operators have learned to adapt to the technical deficiencies of the players and turn them into strengths rather than try and turn league one into a diet version of the premiership. Teams have had success playing progressive football down here but it isn’t a regular occurrence for a reason- it takes both coaching nous and a scouting network that can identify such players at low cost. It’s almost a perfect storm of elements- even the bigger clubs in our league aren’t known for playing the best football despite their budget. Agree with all of this. Most promotion winning league 1 sides are strong and quick horrible teams to play against with plenty in there who can get stuck in and whilst some are good on the eye they still tend to be quite direct in the sense of how many passes from back to front to create goal scoring opportunities. The 1-2 defeat v league winners Coventry being a good example of this , both of their goals were very direct quick passing play with high tempo. They didn’t try to pass us to death they went for the jugular and that’s typical of a league 1 promotion side. I think you are completely wrong in that assessment. Our recruitment has shown that Ben has been quite specific in both the type of player and in the role they are to fulfil in the team. This has been borne out by the players themselves in giving their reasons for signing for us and in our training sessions. Josh Grant and Westbrooke; EHmer, Baldwin and Harries; Nicholson, Daly and JML; Jonah. I think it is quite clear the roles they are to play. The accusation that he considers our players 'uncultured' is unfounded, and I do not believe he is as disrespectful of his players as you are towards our manager. I might be wrong but I would be interested to know your basis for this strange comment. Obviously, our younger signings might be considered 'novices' and may well be signed as, as such, they can be more readily moulded into the type of player Ben wants - if so, that would suggest considerable thought of the 'specific components' required to make his philosophy work. And of course, there is experience in the core of the side - Anssi, Ehmer, Baldwin, Upson, Rodman, Leahy, Little, Nicholson, etc. ;JCH would also have been integral to the team. What is more important than any system we are trying to play, is the individual players understanding their role within the team, to play with confidence, and to have belief in the system and not panic when under pressure. That is not happening at the moment, but when it does, we will benefit from the results. Coventry has been mentioned, and I remember watching them continuosly play out from the back and nearly being caught out by our players pressing them. I commented that they were a little bit too cocky and we would make them pay. But they had the belief and confidence in the way they played and ultimately their perseverance paid off. Individual mistakes, often from our most experienced and reliable players are not helping, and these are accentuated with results going against us. UTG!
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Post by lpgas1 on Sept 25, 2020 11:37:39 GMT
If you have been coaching Premier ship and Championship players it must need some adjutment to coach league One players, and that is simply they are not so good all round players. Some cant pass very well, some cant tackle, some cant score often. So for Garner it must be frustrating that League one players make more mistakes than perhaps he is used to seeing.
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Post by lpgas1 on Sept 25, 2020 11:42:29 GMT
Speculate to accumulate. See stadium etc . We can’t get the players because we can’t get the crowds ( sh**e stadiums) , so we don’t get the results that get you the crowds that pay for better players that get you results . And on we go...... Easy clichés when it's not your money. I would say that now is probably the time to do it with most of the world in recession. Cheaper materials, cheaper labour
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Post by reason on Sept 25, 2020 11:49:10 GMT
If you have been coaching Premier ship and Championship players it must need some adjutment to coach league One players, and that is simply they are not so good all round players. Some cant pass very well, some cant tackle, some cant score often. So for Garner it must be frustrating that League one players make more mistakes than perhaps he is used to seeing. Absolutely agree with this. I remember an inteview about a manager, who had been a very good player in his time (I think Hoddle), who said one of the hardest things for him to adapt to was not appreciating the limitations of his players and his expectations of what they could achieve; not realising that what was so easy and natural to him, was not the case with his lower league players. I can well imagine that being the biggest frustration for any manager. So I would agree that should be borne in mind, in say instructing a defender when under pressure to just hoof it clear! But seeing an experienced defender head into his own goal without an opposition player anywhere near him, would no doubt be most disappointing! UTG!
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Post by socrates on Sept 25, 2020 12:11:00 GMT
Agree with all of this. Most promotion winning league 1 sides are strong and quick horrible teams to play against with plenty in there who can get stuck in and whilst some are good on the eye they still tend to be quite direct in the sense of how many passes from back to front to create goal scoring opportunities. The 1-2 defeat v league winners Coventry being a good example of this , both of their goals were very direct quick passing play with high tempo. They didn’t try to pass us to death they went for the jugular and that’s typical of a league 1 promotion side. I think you are completely wrong in that assessment. Our recruitment has shown that Ben has been quite specific in both the type of player and in the role they are to fulfil in the team. This has been borne out by the players themselves in giving their reasons for signing for us and in our training sessions. Josh Grant and Westbrooke; EHmer, Baldwin and Harries; Nicholson, Daly and JML; Jonah. I think it is quite clear the roles they are to play. The accusation that he considers our players 'uncultured' is unfounded, and I do not believe he is as disrespectful of his players as you are towards our manager. I might be wrong but I would be interested to know your basis for this strange comment. Obviously, our younger signings might be considered 'novices' and may well be signed as, as such, they can be more readily moulded into the type of player Ben wants - if so, that would suggest considerable thought of the 'specific components' required to make his philosophy work. And of course, there is experience in the core of the side - Anssi, Ehmer, Baldwin, Upson, Rodman, Leahy, Little, Nicholson, etc. ;JCH would also have been integral to the team. What is more important than any system we are trying to play, is the individual players understanding their role within the team, to play with confidence, and to have belief in the system and not panic when under pressure. That is not happening at the moment, but when it does, we will benefit from the results. Coventry has been mentioned, and I remember watching them continuosly play out from the back and nearly being caught out by our players pressing them. I commented that they were a little bit too cocky and we would make them pay. But they had the belief and confidence in the way they played and ultimately their perseverance paid off. Individual mistakes, often from our most experienced and reliable players are not helping, and these are accentuated with results going against us. UTG! If you think Garner has bought players mobile enough to play a high pressing game in league 1 successfully then fair enough that’s your opinion I don’t think I’m being disrespectful , just giving my opinion of league 1 , Garner and our squad. Managers gain respect by winning football matches.
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Post by horfield on Sept 25, 2020 12:25:42 GMT
If you have been coaching Premier ship and Championship players it must need some adjutment to coach league One players, and that is simply they are not so good all round players. Some cant pass very well, some cant tackle, some cant score often. So for Garner it must be frustrating that League one players make more mistakes than perhaps he is used to seeing. Absolutely agree with this. I remember an inteview about a manager, who had been a very good player in his time (I think Hoddle), who said one of the hardest things for him to adapt to was not appreciating the limitations of his players and his expectations of what they could achieve; not realising that what was so easy and natural to him, was not the case with his lower league players. I can well imagine that being the biggest frustration for any manager. So I would agree that should be borne in mind, in say instructing a defender when under pressure to just hoof it clear! But seeing an experienced defender head into his own goal without an opposition player anywhere near him, would no doubt be most disappointing! UTG!
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Post by horfield on Sept 25, 2020 12:27:44 GMT
Doesn't appear to be a problem adapting to Div 1 players lack of ability for Darren Moore, Phil Parkinson or Paul Lambert
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Post by warehamgas on Sept 25, 2020 12:31:27 GMT
RProbably not so knowledgable as many on here about formations. My children played Championship manager I haven’t so I haven’t been brought up with all the different formations. So feel free to criticise but fwiw: I’d play 442 in League1. But in practice when you have the ball it should become 424 or 433 and when you haven’t got the ball with the right players it can become 451 or 541. What you need then is mobile, energetic players to be able to move up together or defend together when you’ve not got the ball. With a few very good players 442 can easily change into another formation, DC did that all the time. I know the expectations on players to be intelligent and formation-aware is far greater than before but the essence of the game has never changed, you need to score goals and stop the opposition from scoring more than you. It is a simple message.
My biggest fear is that our manager, with his experience sees performances as being as important as results. With PL academies it may be more about performance than it is about results. But his time at WBA and Palace should have taught him that the result is the main objective. And in League 1 it is about results and scoring more and conceding less than the opposition, as it is in any football game. I’m not sure he sees it like that. Keep it simple both tactically and formation-wise. His tactics may well make the players “better” but performances are not the main concern it should be the result. And a good one tomorrow might help.😉 UTG!
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Post by reason on Sept 25, 2020 12:44:24 GMT
I think you are completely wrong in that assessment. Our recruitment has shown that Ben has been quite specific in both the type of player and in the role they are to fulfil in the team. This has been borne out by the players themselves in giving their reasons for signing for us and in our training sessions. Josh Grant and Westbrooke; EHmer, Baldwin and Harries; Nicholson, Daly and JML; Jonah. I think it is quite clear the roles they are to play. The accusation that he considers our players 'uncultured' is unfounded, and I do not believe he is as disrespectful of his players as you are towards our manager. I might be wrong but I would be interested to know your basis for this strange comment. Obviously, our younger signings might be considered 'novices' and may well be signed as, as such, they can be more readily moulded into the type of player Ben wants - if so, that would suggest considerable thought of the 'specific components' required to make his philosophy work. And of course, there is experience in the core of the side - Anssi, Ehmer, Baldwin, Upson, Rodman, Leahy, Little, Nicholson, etc. ;JCH would also have been integral to the team. What is more important than any system we are trying to play, is the individual players understanding their role within the team, to play with confidence, and to have belief in the system and not panic when under pressure. That is not happening at the moment, but when it does, we will benefit from the results. Coventry has been mentioned, and I remember watching them continuosly play out from the back and nearly being caught out by our players pressing them. I commented that they were a little bit too cocky and we would make them pay. But they had the belief and confidence in the way they played and ultimately their perseverance paid off. Individual mistakes, often from our most experienced and reliable players are not helping, and these are accentuated with results going against us. UTG! If you think Garner has bought players mobile enough to play a high pressing game in league 1 successfully then fair enough that’s your opinion I don’t think I’m being disrespectful , just giving my opinion of league 1 , Garner and our squad. Managers gain respect by winning football matches. Yes, i do respect your opinion. I was not commenting on the players ability to play a high pressing game. This would have a lot to do with individual fitness and organisation as a team. Cam Hargreaves has done so already and does have that ability. Any well organised team can be drilled to do so, but I am not sure that is what we are trying to do. Whether we play a system based on high pressing, or on individuals pressing higher up the field, or a style based on maintaining possession, is Ben's call. What I am suggesting id that Ben has indeed given much thought on how he wants us to play and sought out those players suitable to execute that. Also, as I have said before, I do acknowlwedge that managers gain respect by winning matches. But being 'respectful' should be the default position, and I would suggest calling any manager a 'Playstation coach' is highly disrespectful. UTG!
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