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Post by poorblue on Dec 5, 2020 12:43:39 GMT
Well if the mods won't protect threads from being highjacked (Director of Football as an example where this is cut and pasted from) I will try.
Just wondering if this will be deleted.
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holmes Avatar
20 hours ago holmes said:
poor blue Avatar
yesterday at 12:23am poorblue said:
Still can't believe the mods have let this thread to be highjacked from the title but here goes, I'll join in.
I'm not ITK or qualified in finance but as I understand it Wael owns BRFC, Dwyanne Sports, The Quarters and The Mem.
As I understand it all the debts (well mostly I suspect) are trading debts such as rent between these companies. Therefore he is/was in debt to himself. Therefore technically, even practically, he did not "pay" any debt off. I believe the legal term is "written off". That is he has foregone a claim for the debt from his other company. How was the debt accrued? Possibly by taking a loan at say 2% from a bank (family bank?) then charging his other company say 10% never fully expecting it to be paid thus no tax payable as there is no profit. It's my understanding this is how most clubs and perhaps many of non football companies are run. BRFC pays rent to The Mem Co just as it did when previous Directors ran the club.
Lansdown I understand has twice "written off " £50m in exactly the same way. I cannot see an experienced billionaire would lose £100m just for the fun
********************
No rent was paid to Mem Co after Bristol Rovers became 100% owners and Mem co is now a dormant company.
(But rent was still paid as BRFC do not own the stadium)
The debt has been incurred from trading losses, spending more than we earn, ( trading losses are debts obviously probably including rent and or or loans, we being who BRFC or Dwane Sports?) ) and Dwayne Sports has loaned that money to Bristol Rovers 1883 ltd hence the charge on the stadium which that company owns. Ignoring who owns what and owes what to who, the overspent cash has left both the club and the owners pockets.
Steve Lansdown has explained several times that the billions he made before retirement is safe and secure with his family. What he spends each year is new cash earned from his vast shareholding in Hargrave Lansdown and other investments since he accrued his vast wealth. In other words, new money.
It's my understanding he sold his shares hence his huge wealth, but either way his new wealth and investments suffered a £100m loss suffered by those companies associated with BCFC putting the club and stadium at risk.
Both clubs are fortunate to have owners who are able to convert large loans into equity knowing that they will probably never see it back again.
It’s also worth noting that some of the debt was the inherited debt accrued by the last board (£8m I think).
The bottom line is, the usual posters that like to throw stones are continuing to do so without any hard evidence to back up their theorise only than what might not be in the public domain just yet for a plethora of good reasons.
Either way, the debt accrued is internally owned by the owner of the club so there is no great drama unless he calls that debt in with no alternative ownership or plan in the pipeline. ( seems to me this is true of every club in the country especially in these pandemic times.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Dec 5, 2020 13:34:24 GMT
Sorry, the formatting means I'm struggling to follow this, perhaps you might want to repost your key points?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2020 13:46:47 GMT
“ Either way, the debt accrued is internally owned by the owner of the club so there is no great drama unless he calls that debt in with no alternative ownership or plan in the pipeline. ( seems to me this is true of every club in the country especially in these pandemic times.”
Well yes, exactly and that’s why everyone shouldn’t bury their heads in the sand until there is something official that confirms the debt has been expunged. There is nowt wrong with keeping an open mind in my view, especially considering the size of our debt which would totally ruin the club if it turned out it wasn’t paid off and then was called in. Given the training ground situation I doubt any nefarious intention on Wael’s part but even so I’m still keen to see it officially written off as you never know what can happen in life and this year should be a case in point of that.
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Post by LJG on Dec 5, 2020 13:59:36 GMT
Why do you idiots keep giving oxygen to Swiss and Gasincider's conspiracy ramblings when literally every single time they are proven to be made up pot-stirring bull-sh**?
I mean literally every time.
The consortium.
The £24m debt.
The Mem being sold to developers.
Every time.
They're like Fairies. Ignore them and they'll fade away.
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Post by gashead1981 on Dec 5, 2020 15:46:55 GMT
Well if the mods won't protect threads from being highjacked (Director of Football as an example where this is cut and pasted from) I will try. Just wondering if this will be deleted. gashead1981 Moderator ***** gashead1981 Avatar Posts: 3,499Male Posting Level Next Level in 1501 posts 18 hours ago via mobile Quote Post OptionsP ost by gashead1981 on 18 hours ago holmes Avatar 20 hours ago holmes said: poor blue Avatar yesterday at 12:23am poorblue said: Still can't believe the mods have let this thread to be highjacked from the title but here goes, I'll join in. I'm not ITK or qualified in finance but as I understand it Wael owns BRFC, Dwyanne Sports, The Quarters and The Mem. As I understand it all the debts (well mostly I suspect) are trading debts such as rent between these companies. Therefore he is/was in debt to himself. Therefore technically, even practically, he did not "pay" any debt off. I believe the legal term is "written off". That is he has foregone a claim for the debt from his other company. How was the debt accrued? Possibly by taking a loan at say 2% from a bank (family bank?) then charging his other company say 10% never fully expecting it to be paid thus no tax payable as there is no profit. It's my understanding this is how most clubs and perhaps many of non football companies are run. BRFC pays rent to The Mem Co just as it did when previous Directors ran the club. Lansdown I understand has twice "written off " £50m in exactly the same way. I cannot see an experienced billionaire would lose £100m just for the fun ******************** No rent was paid to Mem Co after Bristol Rovers became 100% owners and Mem co is now a dormant company. ( But rent was still paid as BRFC do not own the stadium) The debt has been incurred from trading losses, spending more than we earn, ( trading losses are debts obviously probably including rent and or or loans, we being who BRFC or Dwane Sports?) ) and Dwayne Sports has loaned that money to Bristol Rovers 1883 ltd hence the charge on the stadium which that company owns. Ignoring who owns what and owes what to who, the overspent cash has left both the club and the owners pockets. Steve Lansdown has explained several times that the billions he made before retirement is safe and secure with his family. What he spends each year is new cash earned from his vast shareholding in Hargrave Lansdown and other investments since he accrued his vast wealth. In other words, new money.
It's my understanding he sold his shares hence his huge wealth, but either way his new wealth and investments suffered a £100m loss suffered by those companies associated with BCFC putting the club and stadium at risk.Both clubs are fortunate to have owners who are able to convert large loans into equity knowing that they will probably never see it back again. It’s also worth noting that some of the debt was the inherited debt accrued by the last board (£8m I think). The bottom line is, the usual posters that like to throw stones are continuing to do so without any hard evidence to back up their theorise only than what might not be in the public domain just yet for a plethora of good reasons. Either way, the debt accrued is internally owned by the owner of the club so there is no great drama unless he calls that debt in with no alternative ownership or plan in the pipeline. ( seems to me this is true of every club in the country especially in these pandemic times.Give it a rest poor blue. Sometimes us mods haven’t got the time to read through every post to see if it is on track or not. We’re only really here to make sure everyone is playing nicely. Please use the report button to flag anything to the mods attention but quit whinging in posts and on ops. Thanks. G81. |
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Post by swissgas on Dec 5, 2020 17:52:56 GMT
Why do you idiots keep giving oxygen to Swiss and Gasincider's conspiracy ramblings when literally every single time they are proven to be made up pot-stirring bull-sh**? I mean literally every time. The consortium. The £24m debt. The Mem being sold to developers. Every time. They're like Fairies. Ignore them and they'll fade away. Who you calling a fairy ? I’ll see you in the car park pal  The director of football thread was hijacked on page 1 when walthamstow gas had the audacity to criticise Wael and was immediately mugged. The over defensiveness of some posters tells its own story but the facts are clear. On July 8th the club stated that the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan from Dwane Sports had been capitalised which was untrue. On September 15th the club stated the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan from Dwane Sports would be capitalised immediately after the AGM on September 28th but it has not been. I can understand that some Gasheads are completely captivated by Wael and will believe literally anything he says. But trying to defend statements which are patently untrue is surely a sign of desperation. And for the club to remain silent and not offer any explanation is, IMO, sending completely the wrong signal to outsiders who’s help Rovers are going to need sooner or later. |
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Post by LJG on Dec 5, 2020 18:38:48 GMT
Why do you idiots keep giving oxygen to Swiss and Gasincider's conspiracy ramblings when literally every single time they are proven to be made up pot-stirring bull-sh**? I mean literally every time. The consortium. The £24m debt. The Mem being sold to developers. Every time. They're like Fairies. Ignore them and they'll fade away. Who you calling a fairy ? I’ll see you in the car park pal The director of football thread was hijacked on page 1 when walthamstow gas had the audacity to criticise Wael and was immediately mugged. The over defensiveness of some posters tells its own story but the facts are clear. On July 8th the club stated that the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan from Dwane Sports had been capitalised which was untrue. On September 15th the club stated the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan from Dwane Sports would be capitalised immediately after the AGM on September 28th but it has not been. I can understand that some Gasheads are completely captivated by Wael and will believe literally anything he says. But trying to defend statements which are patently untrue is surely a sign of desperation. And for the club to remain silent and not offer any explanation is, IMO, sending completely the wrong signal to outsiders who’s help Rovers are going to need sooner or later. You don't know what's true and what isn't. You haven't got a clue. Tell me again how much debt is being capitalised? Tell me again how you've checked the records of a Jersey registered company on Companies House in the UK? You think people are stupid, honestly. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2020 19:07:33 GMT
Why do you idiots keep giving oxygen to Swiss and Gasincider's conspiracy ramblings when literally every single time they are proven to be made up pot-stirring bull-sh**? I mean literally every time. The consortium. The £24m debt. The Mem being sold to developers. Every time. They're like Fairies. Ignore them and they'll fade away. Who you calling a fairy ? I’ll see you in the car park pal The director of football thread was hijacked on page 1 when walthamstow gas had the audacity to criticise Wael and was immediately mugged. The over defensiveness of some posters tells its own story but the facts are clear. On July 8th the club stated that the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan from Dwane Sports had been capitalised which was untrue. On September 15th the club stated the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan from Dwane Sports would be capitalised immediately after the AGM on September 28th but it has not been. I can understand that some Gasheads are completely captivated by Wael and will believe literally anything he says. But trying to defend statements which are patently untrue is surely a sign of desperation. And for the club to remain silent and not offer any explanation is, IMO, sending completely the wrong signal to outsiders who’s help Rovers are going to need sooner or later. Swiss I don’t think it’s about being captivated by Wael, just more that some like me are willing to trust him and his word based upon what he has done so far rather than not when personally I can’t see anything factual that says he hasn’t or won’t (companies house doesn’t and won’t show he hasn’t as other posters have pointed out). Please let us know what it is that makes you not trust him ? |
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Post by peterparker on Dec 5, 2020 19:11:34 GMT
Even if he capitalised the debt, he could f**k us over tomorrow if he wanted.
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Post by Charlton Hayes Gas on Dec 5, 2020 19:16:45 GMT
Well if the mods won't protect threads from being highjacked (Director of Football as an example where this is cut and pasted from) I will try. Just wondering if this will be deleted. gashead1981 Moderator ***** gashead1981 Avatar Posts: 3,499Male Posting Level Next Level in 1501 posts 18 hours ago via mobile Quote Post OptionsP ost by gashead1981 on 18 hours ago holmes Avatar 20 hours ago holmes said: poor blue Avatar yesterday at 12:23am poorblue said: Still can't believe the mods have let this thread to be highjacked from the title but here goes, I'll join in. I'm not ITK or qualified in finance but as I understand it Wael owns BRFC, Dwyanne Sports, The Quarters and The Mem. As I understand it all the debts (well mostly I suspect) are trading debts such as rent between these companies. Therefore he is/was in debt to himself. Therefore technically, even practically, he did not "pay" any debt off. I believe the legal term is "written off". That is he has foregone a claim for the debt from his other company. How was the debt accrued? Possibly by taking a loan at say 2% from a bank (family bank?) then charging his other company say 10% never fully expecting it to be paid thus no tax payable as there is no profit. It's my understanding this is how most clubs and perhaps many of non football companies are run. BRFC pays rent to The Mem Co just as it did when previous Directors ran the club. Lansdown I understand has twice "written off " £50m in exactly the same way. I cannot see an experienced billionaire would lose £100m just for the fun ******************** No rent was paid to Mem Co after Bristol Rovers became 100% owners and Mem co is now a dormant company. ( But rent was still paid as BRFC do not own the stadium) The debt has been incurred from trading losses, spending more than we earn, ( trading losses are debts obviously probably including rent and or or loans, we being who BRFC or Dwane Sports?) ) and Dwayne Sports has loaned that money to Bristol Rovers 1883 ltd hence the charge on the stadium which that company owns. Ignoring who owns what and owes what to who, the overspent cash has left both the club and the owners pockets. Steve Lansdown has explained several times that the billions he made before retirement is safe and secure with his family. What he spends each year is new cash earned from his vast shareholding in Hargrave Lansdown and other investments since he accrued his vast wealth. In other words, new money.
It's my understanding he sold his shares hence his huge wealth, but either way his new wealth and investments suffered a £100m loss suffered by those companies associated with BCFC putting the club and stadium at risk.Both clubs are fortunate to have owners who are able to convert large loans into equity knowing that they will probably never see it back again. It’s also worth noting that some of the debt was the inherited debt accrued by the last board (£8m I think). The bottom line is, the usual posters that like to throw stones are continuing to do so without any hard evidence to back up their theorise only than what might not be in the public domain just yet for a plethora of good reasons. Either way, the debt accrued is internally owned by the owner of the club so there is no great drama unless he calls that debt in with no alternative ownership or plan in the pipeline. ( seems to me this is true of every club in the country especially in these pandemic times. Too long to read and too difficult to understand, so congratulations, unless it’s sad, then my condolences. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2020 19:21:35 GMT
Why do you idiots keep giving oxygen to Swiss and Gasincider's conspiracy ramblings when literally every single time they are proven to be made up pot-stirring bull-sh**? I mean literally every time. The consortium. The £24m debt. The Mem being sold to developers. Every time. They're like Fairies. Ignore them and they'll fade away. Who you calling a fairy ? I’ll see you in the car park pal The director of football thread was hijacked on page 1 when walthamstow gas had the audacity to criticise Wael and was immediately mugged. The over defensiveness of some posters tells its own story but the facts are clear. On July 8th the club stated that the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan from Dwane Sports had been capitalised which was untrue. On September 15th the club stated the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan from Dwane Sports would be capitalised immediately after the AGM on September 28th but it has not been. I can understand that some Gasheads are completely captivated by Wael and will believe literally anything he says. But trying to defend statements which are patently untrue is surely a sign of desperation. And for the club to remain silent and not offer any explanation is, IMO, sending completely the wrong signal to outsiders who’s help Rovers are going to need sooner or later. Any comments about todays game, performance, Managers interview etc? Or is your only interest in finding fault with our owner and you have no interest in what the club actually does, ie. Play football. |
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Post by swissgas on Dec 5, 2020 19:31:41 GMT
Who you calling a fairy ? I’ll see you in the car park pal The director of football thread was hijacked on page 1 when walthamstow gas had the audacity to criticise Wael and was immediately mugged. The over defensiveness of some posters tells its own story but the facts are clear. On July 8th the club stated that the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan from Dwane Sports had been capitalised which was untrue. On September 15th the club stated the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan from Dwane Sports would be capitalised immediately after the AGM on September 28th but it has not been. I can understand that some Gasheads are completely captivated by Wael and will believe literally anything he says. But trying to defend statements which are patently untrue is surely a sign of desperation. And for the club to remain silent and not offer any explanation is, IMO, sending completely the wrong signal to outsiders who’s help Rovers are going to need sooner or later. You don't know what's true and what isn't. You haven't got a clue. Tell me again how much debt is being capitalised? Tell me again how you've checked the records of a Jersey registered company on Companies House in the UK? You think people are stupid, honestly. Calm down and think about it logically. BRFC 1883 Ltd owed Dwane Sports £18.4 million and we were told that to repay this loan they had issued shares to Dwane Sports Ltd. The outcome of that would have been Dwane Sports owning more shares in BRFC 1883 Ltd and BRFC 1883 Ltd no longer owing Dwane Sports the £18.4 million. But it didn’t happen because if it had done it would show on the Companies House registry. Bringing up the subject of Dwane Sports shares and the Jersey companies registry isn’t going to please those who would rather these matters were kept under wraps. My last search showed that Dwane Sports was owned by two nominee companies so it is impossible to tell who the beneficial owners are. However in June there was much jubilation when we were told that Dwane Sports was now 90% owned by Wael and 10% owned by Samer with Hani completely out of the picture. We have to assume this is actually the case but, as I said before, when some statements which have been made are proven to be false it is bound to sow doubt in the mind about others. |
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Post by swissgas on Dec 5, 2020 20:03:11 GMT
Who you calling a fairy ? I’ll see you in the car park pal The director of football thread was hijacked on page 1 when walthamstow gas had the audacity to criticise Wael and was immediately mugged. The over defensiveness of some posters tells its own story but the facts are clear. On July 8th the club stated that the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan from Dwane Sports had been capitalised which was untrue. On September 15th the club stated the BRFC 1883 Ltd loan from Dwane Sports would be capitalised immediately after the AGM on September 28th but it has not been. I can understand that some Gasheads are completely captivated by Wael and will believe literally anything he says. But trying to defend statements which are patently untrue is surely a sign of desperation. And for the club to remain silent and not offer any explanation is, IMO, sending completely the wrong signal to outsiders who’s help Rovers are going to need sooner or later. Swiss I don’t think it’s about being captivated by Wael, just more that some like me are willing to trust him and his word based upon what he has done so far rather than not when personally I can’t see anything factual that says he hasn’t or won’t (companies house doesn’t and won’t show he hasn’t as other posters have pointed out). Please let us know what it is that makes you not trust him ? If I gave you a full answer to that question blue stick I would upset even more posters. Basically I disagree completely with the statement “Wael has done what he said he would do”. From the young Jordanian player he brought over through evolution not revolution, ten stadium experts, Fruit Market in two years and financial sustainability right up to the state of the art training ground where the whole club could be based, he has failed to do what he indicated he would. It is not a lack of trust in his sincerity or any feeling that Wael is putting his own financial interest first (quite the opposite) it is his lack of competence which is the problem for me. And, as walthamstowgas posted on the other thread, he has surrounded himself with “people I can trust” rather than people who would have the experience and ability to move Rovers forward because those kind of people would undoubtedly challenge him. |
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Post by swissgas on Dec 5, 2020 20:09:22 GMT
Even if he capitalised the debt, he could f**k us over tomorrow if he wanted. I don’t think for one moment that Wael would deliberately, as you put it, f**k us over. But, and I hope knowing me as a long time poster PP you will understand what I mean, the worry is that Wael will unintentionally allow Rovers to be f**ked over because of his lack of worldliness. |
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Post by phillistine on Dec 5, 2020 20:16:24 GMT
The original post was mine and nothing to do with the clubs finances.
However i would like to post what i put this afternoon:
i was answering the query as to why there is nothing on the Companies House website to suggest that the debt has been paid off:
" If the debt has been written off then that will show on the balance sheet which is published with the annual accounts - nowhere else. They have not been published since Wael made his comments nor should they be. The next accounts will be posted in March 2021.
What is more - if Wael did it after 30th June 2020 then it will be on the balance sheet published in March 2022 - so expect more scaremongering if it does not appear in the next set of accounts.
Many assumptions are being made just because Rovers have a continuing facility to draw down £10 million from Dwane Sports. They may not even be using it although i suspect that they are otherwise Wael will need to be continuing to pump money in as they go along - that is not the way to run a business. I cannot think of any valid reason why they should opt to close the facility.
Dont get me wrong, Wael may not have cleared the debt, but then equally he may have done so. It is down to whether you trust him. You simply cannot tell from the information lodged with Companies House.
i am not sure whether the comments being made are by people who just havent really thought what they are saying , whether they know something that is not in the public arena or
whether they are deliberately stirring up ill feeling and panic within true supporters.
If someone would like to tell me why my comments are invalid then please do so!!
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Post by phillistine on Dec 5, 2020 20:23:01 GMT
Even if he capitalised the debt, he could f**k us over tomorrow if he wanted. I don’t think for one moment that Wael would deliberately, as you put it, f**k us over. But, and I hope knowing me as a long time poster PP you will understand what I mean, the worry is that Wael will unintentionally allow Rovers to be f**ked over because of his lack of worldliness. This is quite clearly a silly comment. The guy may not have a great understanding of football tactics but he is heading a bank for heaven's sake and he is taking advice from one of the top accountancy firms in the UK. I repeat i wonder if people on this forum have inside knowledge- which i doubt - or if they are just being deliberately mischevious for reasons only they can explain. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Dec 5, 2020 20:24:16 GMT
Why do you idiots keep giving oxygen to Swiss and Gasincider's conspiracy ramblings when literally every single time they are proven to be made up pot-stirring bull-sh**? I mean literally every time. The consortium. The £24m debt. The Mem being sold to developers. Every time. They're like Fairies. Ignore them and they'll fade away. You forgot shipping out JCH last January, not paying for the fence, having no money and Wael being a Walter Mitty character among many other stories peddled by a handful of posters on here. All total bollocks. And some of them even pretend they have backed Wael all along! Wael said he would bring evolution and make us self sustaining. Its painful at the moment, but he is doing just that. He said he would sort out our training facilities. Hes done that. He said he would drag us into the 21st century. He has done that. He has said he will deliver a ground..... Meanwhile the same handful of people continue to try to undermine him and as usual no proof is ever forthcoming. |
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Post by swissgas on Dec 5, 2020 20:41:02 GMT
I don’t think for one moment that Wael would deliberately, as you put it, f**k us over. But, and I hope knowing me as a long time poster PP you will understand what I mean, the worry is that Wael will unintentionally allow Rovers to be f**ked over because of his lack of worldliness. This is quite clearly a silly comment. The guy may not have a great understanding of football tactics but he is heading a bank for heaven's sake and he is taking advice from one of the top accountancy firms in the UK. I repeat i wonder if people on this forum have inside knowledge- which i doubt - or if they are just being deliberately mischevious for reasons only they can explain. Hani is CEO and director of the bank but Wael is not a member of the board. The company auditors used to be the leading accountancy firm Grant Thornton but they were replaced in 2019 by a small firm based in Yeovil. A partner in the company’s legal advisers, Mike Turner, was on the board but he left last year. |
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Post by justin blue on Dec 5, 2020 20:44:34 GMT
How sad it is that we have won a vital match lifted ourselves out of the relegation places and posters want to discuss this.
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Post by gashead1981 on Dec 5, 2020 20:49:10 GMT
Why do you idiots keep giving oxygen to Swiss and Gasincider's conspiracy ramblings when literally every single time they are proven to be made up pot-stirring bull-sh**? I mean literally every time. The consortium. The £24m debt. The Mem being sold to developers. Every time. They're like Fairies. Ignore them and they'll fade away. You forgot shipping out JCH last January, not paying for the fence, having no money and Wael being a Walter Mitty character among many other stories peddled by a handful of posters on here. All total bollocks. And some of them even pretend they have backed Wael all along! Wael said he would bring evolution and make us self sustaining. Its painful at the moment, but he is doing just that. He said he would sort out our training facilities. Hes done that. He said he would drag us into the 21st century. He has done that. He has said he will deliver a ground..... Meanwhile the same handful of people continue to try to undermine him and as usual no proof is ever forthcoming. Add that GI latest conspiracy that the Wael wanted the SC to pay for a training ground for the youth team... Swiss, you have been banging this drum since August on the other forum and you haven’t bothered to contact Wael or Martyn to raise your concerns. You say you asked Taylor Wessing but they didn’t come back to you. That doesn’t really surprise me. If I was a fairly big company, I wouldn’t waste my time with a supporter of a football club that lives in America and never goes anyway. So until you actually have any credible evidence that Wael isn’t going to do what he says he is going to do, then I’m afraid there isn’t much mileage in continuing to pedal it on either forums. What exactly are you hoping to gain from it? That people suddenly pick up their pitchforks and burning effigies of our owner? |
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