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Post by 68 on Mar 3, 2021 9:09:15 GMT
I can't believe that matchday officials conspired to cheat us out of the game. Are officials inconsistent? Yes. Are some poor? Yes. Do they cheat teams? Not in my opinion. LM accumulated two yellow cards and was correctly sent off. If we are looking for scapegoats the fault is with the player not the referee. Neither can I but Barton needs to give officials a little more respect. His reputation goes before him.
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Post by Antonio Fargas on Mar 3, 2021 9:11:35 GMT
I can't believe that matchday officials conspired to cheat us out of the game. Are officials inconsistent? Yes. Are some poor? Yes. Do they cheat teams? Not in my opinion. LM accumulated two yellow cards and was correctly sent off. If we are looking for scapegoats the fault is with the player not the referee. Neither can I but Barton needs to give officials a little more respect. His reputation goes before him. Been looking at JB's Fleetwood's disciplinary record and it is pretty average for the division. No evidence there that he is costing his team decisions.
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Post by SleepyGas on Mar 3, 2021 9:34:16 GMT
I don't believe we can. I think you can only appeal straight reds and not yellows. We wouldn't really have any grounds to anyway - he did deliberately kick the ball away and his first challenge could be interpreted as a yellow. The whole incident that led to his 2nd yellow was awful. We had been in control for most of the game and then (I think it was a) bad back pass to JvS which led to his poor sliced clearance which meant he had to come further out of position and tap it out for a throw (when really, in retrospect, he should have hoofed it some distance - although there are still balls nearby that can be used instead, but still would have given him a bit more time to get back in his box). Luke McCormick deliberately followed the ball to touch and kicked it away from the Burton player - you see this happen all the time without the ref taking any action (apart from sometimes talking to the player - which is very frustrating when it keeps happening against us), but he can't really argue with the ref deciding to punish him as that is the letter of the law. I have seen a few people say he was only carded for it because the ref knew he was on a yellow, but I can't see it. It's more likely the ref didn't even remember LM was already booked until after he had pulled his card out? Not that it should matter.. I don't get all this "well that was a yellow on its own, but not worthy of a 2nd yellow".. I doubt there is anywhere in the laws of the game saying that a 2nd yellow card has to be a worse offence than something worthy of a 1st yellow (despite that being the way some referees seem to interpret it)
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Post by Antonio Fargas on Mar 3, 2021 9:42:02 GMT
I don't believe we can. I think you can only appeal straight reds and not yellows. We wouldn't really have any grounds to anyway - he did deliberately kick the ball away and his first challenge could be interpreted as a yellow. The whole incident that led to his 2nd yellow was awful. We had been in control for most of the game and then (I think it was a) bad back pass to JvS which led to his poor sliced clearance which meant he had to come further out of position and tap it out for a throw (when really, in retrospect, he should have hoofed it some distance - although there are still balls nearby that can be used instead, but still would have given him a bit more time to get back in his box). Luke McCormick deliberately followed the ball to touch and kicked it away from the Burton player - you see this happen all the time without the ref taking any action (apart from sometimes talking to the player - which is very frustrating when it keeps happening against us), but he can't really argue with the ref deciding to punish him as that is the letter of the law. I have seen a few people say he was only carded for it because the ref knew he was on a yellow, but I can't see it. It's more likely the ref didn't even remember LM was already booked until after he had pulled his card out? Not that it should matter.. I don't get all this "well that was a yellow on its own, but not worthy of a 2nd yellow".. I doubt there is anywhere in the laws of the game saying that a 2nd yellow card has to be a worse offence than something worthy of a 1st yellow (despite that being the way some referees seem to interpret it) My recollection is that he got both cards out as he was walking over, before showing either of them, so it was pretty clear he knew it was going to be a red. It definitely wasn't one of those cases where the ref is surprised to find he's already booked someone.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2021 9:42:16 GMT
My take on this was that LM did kick the ball away and that was naive, especially when already on yellow. The thing for me is that he shouldn’t have already been on a yellow as his first one was for an innocuous foul early in the game and was his first indiscretion.... that warranted a talking to not a yellow. The second, most refs wouldn’t have given a yellow to - just a firm warning but I could accept it more if the ref was consistent as there were multiple times when Burton players kicked the ball away or committed fouls similar or far worse than the LM one, yet the ref gave nothing - sometimes not even a free kick.
LM shouldn’t have done it when he knew he was on a yellow (although he was only doing what 90% of players do most games in stopping a quick throw or free kick being taken) but he should never have been in that position in the first place.
He’ll learn from it. The biggest challenge for me is that he’s been one of our strongest players lately and that Red now means he’ll miss at least one match. Who will step in to replace him? Hargreaves (for his energy?) or Upson (experience and quality but less mobile?)
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Post by SleepyGas on Mar 3, 2021 9:53:38 GMT
My recollection is that he got both cards out as he was walking over, before showing either of them, so it was pretty clear he knew it was going to be a red. It definitely wasn't one of those cases where the ref is surprised to find he's already booked someone. Very possibly. I would have to watch it back. I was certainly very aware that McCormick was on a yellow when he kicked the ball away (evidently more than Luke was...) and winced as the ref ran on over with the yellow. Can't remember him getting the red out of his back pocket at the same time, but thinking about it, it wasn't like he had to check his notebook.... Either way; this will be a very important lesson for young Luke. He will get to think about it Saturday as he watches us get pumped by Hull from the sidelines..
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Post by SleepyGas on Mar 3, 2021 9:57:15 GMT
My take on this was that LM did kick the ball away and that was naive, especially when already on yellow. The thing for me is that he shouldn’t have already been on a yellow as his first one was for an innocuous foul early in the game and was his first indiscretion.... that warranted a talking to not a yellow. By the letter of the law I think it was a fair yellow, it's just that most refs would have settled with given him a talking to that early in the game. The more frustrating thing was that Burton players were breaking up play with deliberate fouls constantly in the first half and it took a long time for the ref to start cautioning them.
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Post by daniel300380 on Mar 3, 2021 10:00:20 GMT
I can't believe that matchday officials conspired to cheat us out of the game. Are officials inconsistent? Yes. Are some poor? Yes. Do they cheat teams? Not in my opinion. LM accumulated two yellow cards and was correctly sent off. If we are looking for scapegoats the fault is with the player not the referee. He shouldn’t have kicked the ball away, but you don’t get booked 9 times out of 10 for that. The same ref didn’t book their player’s due the same offence. He didn’t book their player’s for blocking quick free kicks etc. Also their player’s did worse trips than his first half booking and got away with it. So yes the player has to take blame, he gave him a decision to make. But I have not seen such a one sided ref for ages. We get rubbish inconsistent refs all the time, that make mistakes for both teams. This refs decisions were just biased though. You can book one teams player for an offence, if you are letting the other team get away with identical offences.
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Post by Dirt Dogg on Mar 3, 2021 10:08:47 GMT
It was not as if the ball fell to McCormick’s toe and he flicked it away trying to be subtle. He has turned around, gone after the ball & kicked it well away from the Burton player. Moronic stupidity from the boy, he’ll know he’s let the gaffer and his team mates down. Unfortunately this incident has cost us points in a huge basement game, after so much positivity post match Saturday we are well and truly back in an enormous fight for survival. Trying to make a scapegoat out of probably our most consistent player this season, nice one!
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Post by woolavingtonpirate on Mar 3, 2021 10:14:41 GMT
Very poor refereeing for me, mcormick first tackle required nothing more than a talking too or if he was already booked a stern warning for his second offence. If the referee was consistent, then is should of booked at least 4 more Burton players for fouls , plus 4 or 5 others for kicking the ball away. Burton were a dirty, niggly team, you can see how they wind the opposition up to the extent they have players sent off. For me last night was a taste of what to expect every week if we went down.
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Post by Gaswood on Mar 3, 2021 10:15:02 GMT
It’s the inconsistency that’s not acceptable. Kane Hemings did it later and wasn’t even spoken to. I also agree about the blocking of free kicks. I have no issue with Luke being booked and sent off for a “letter of the law” offence, but the inconsistency is shocking really. Hey ho, on to the next.
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Post by chewbacca on Mar 3, 2021 10:17:36 GMT
It's pretty simple really, don't put the referee in a position to make the decision.
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Post by Antonio Fargas on Mar 3, 2021 10:20:36 GMT
It’s the inconsistency that’s not acceptable. Kane Hemings did it later and wasn’t even spoken to. I also agree about the blocking of free kicks. I have no issue with Luke being booked and sent off for a “letter of the law” offence, but the inconsistency is shocking really. Hey ho, on to the next. Yep. With all the people saying he should learn his lesson, it makes me wonder what lesson precisely he should be learning. Don't kick the ball away, except do, but you can't, unless you can, but you shouldn't, but you should, but you'll get booked, except when you don't, coz you're not allowed, except you are.
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Post by Antonio Fargas on Mar 3, 2021 10:24:51 GMT
It's pretty simple really, don't put the referee in a position to make the decision. And yet, 21 other players put themselves in that position with impunity. So it's not that simple. On the one hand we get told incessantly that the players need to show more guile and game management and do the dark arts, and then as soon as we get an inconsistent decision, it's 'never do nothing not ever!' Had Burton taken a quick throw-in and scored past JVS as he was making his way back into goal, everyone would be saying LM needs to show more nous. Everything is simple with the benefit of hindsight.
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Post by SleepyGas on Mar 3, 2021 10:36:51 GMT
My recollection is that he got both cards out as he was walking over, before showing either of them, so it was pretty clear he knew it was going to be a red. It definitely wasn't one of those cases where the ref is surprised to find he's already booked someone. Very possibly. I would have to watch it back. I was certainly very aware that McCormick was on a yellow when he kicked the ball away (evidently more than Luke was...) and winced as the ref ran on over with the yellow. Can't remember him getting the red out of his back pocket at the same time, but thinking about it, it wasn't like he had to check his notebook.... Either way; this will be a very important lesson for young Luke. He will get to think about it Saturday as he watches us get pumped by Hull from the sidelines.. OK.. I have watched it back. The ref definitely knew he was sending him off. He pulled out the yellow and was already reaching for the red.
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Post by chewbacca on Mar 3, 2021 10:46:33 GMT
It's pretty simple really, don't put the referee in a position to make the decision. And yet, 21 other players put themselves in that position with impunity. So it's not that simple. On the one hand we get told incessantly that the players need to show more guile and game management and do the dark arts, and then as soon as we get an inconsistent decision, it's 'never do nothing not ever!' Had Burton taken a quick throw-in and scored past JVS as he was making his way back into goal, everyone would be saying LM needs to show more nous. Everything is simple with the benefit of hindsight. There's a way of doing it. That's the main issue, McCormick could have picked up the ball, jogged back three for steps and then thrown it to the thrower. He'd have taken 3/4 seconds out of the game and not got booked. Instead he kicked the ball away 10+ yards.
Don't get me started on game management btw.
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Post by gashead99 on Mar 3, 2021 10:48:54 GMT
Football's supposed to be an entertaining affair, that's why we pay to watch. The best entertainment is when it's 11 v 11 in a free flowing game with an abundance of chances at either end (a somewhat distant memory for us, I know). Part of the role of the referee is to manage that. There are rules to be enforced and, in this instance, we can have no gripe that the letter of the law wasn't applied. Our gripe us simply that the referee got his game management wrong to the extent that he is the main topic of conversation, which should never be the case. 2 yellows do make a red but, from my historic refereeing days, a second yellow dismissal would be for 2 substantial offences or persistently infringing. I don't think either applies in this case. Nothing we can do about it. Hopefully the referee reflects accordingly in discussion with the assessor.
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Post by playtowin on Mar 3, 2021 11:20:45 GMT
The ref may have viewed it as stopping a clear goal scoring opportunity. Seeing as the burton player was ready to take a throw and jvs was still running back to goal.
It was definately a yellow card offence.
Was the ref inconsistent ,of course ,they are every game.
Was the red card completely of our own doing ? Yes. Could it have been avoided ? Yes. Luke McCormick should have picked the ball up pretending he thought it was a rovers throw . Then apologetically threw the ball to the burton player. That would have created enough time for jvs to get back in position. And made it difficult for the ref to give a yellow card.
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Post by purdownpoacher1 on Mar 3, 2021 11:38:36 GMT
It's pretty simple really, don't put the referee in a position to make the decision. If only it were that simple ! Utg 💙
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Post by 1986gashead on Mar 3, 2021 11:40:07 GMT
It was very harsh but at the end of the day LM’s actions are what gave the ref a decision to make in the first place, as JB says tho he’s young and he’ll learn from it, you could say he cost us a point or maybe even 3 but over the rest of the season I’m sure he’ll make up for it. And I personally saw more than enough in that game to convince me we’ll pick up enough points to stay up
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