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Post by Topper Gas on Mar 31, 2021 20:50:38 GMT
If something saved him his job it was the fantastic win and performance v Sunderland. I still think there’s no way we were going to sack the man bought in to oversee a complete transformation before we’d even started it. We'll have to agree to disagree then. But considering Wael pulled the trigger after 11 games with his own squad and backing, suggests he was probably considering it last season. Ironically we had 11 games left of last season so there's no way he'd have survived IMO. I wonder if BG was set a performance target over X games in his contract, and we then had to wait for those extra 11 games before we could dismiss him after he failed to meet the pts target? If so, then no wonder Wael was so keen to continue playing last season, as he knew if we didn't play he have to let BG loose with this season's transfer budget.
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Post by Gassy on Mar 31, 2021 20:53:33 GMT
We'll have to agree to disagree then. But considering Wael pulled the trigger after 11 games with his own squad and backing, suggests he was probably considering it last season. Ironically we had 11 games left of last season so there's no way he'd have survived IMO. I wonder if BG was set a performance target over X games in his contract, and we then had to wait for those extra 11 games before we could dismiss him after he failed to meet the pts target? If so, then no wonder Wael was so keen to continue playing last season, as he knew if we didn't play he have to let BG loose with this season's transfer budget. I'd struggle to believe it tbh. I know we're pretty awful at contracts, but I very much doubt that even we would give a minimum amount of games guaranteed to a manager
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Post by 4d on Mar 31, 2021 21:00:30 GMT
I wonder if BG was set a performance target over X games in his contract, and we then had to wait for those extra 11 games before we could dismiss him after he failed to meet the pts target? If so, then no wonder Wael was so keen to continue playing last season, as he knew if we didn't play he have to let BG loose with this season's transfer budget. I'd struggle to believe it tbh. I know we're pretty awful at contracts, but I very much doubt that even we would give a minimum amount of games guaranteed to a manager If you think recruitment would have been much different without Garner then you’re still not understanding how things work. These were all players Geordie Tommy had been tracking for ages - well before BG came in. Agreed most other managers would have wanted a 4th striker and that’s down to Garner but I think you’ll find a lot of these players would have arrived anyway.
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Post by Gassy on Mar 31, 2021 21:15:44 GMT
I'd struggle to believe it tbh. I know we're pretty awful at contracts, but I very much doubt that even we would give a minimum amount of games guaranteed to a manager If you think recruitment would have been much different without Garner then you’re still not understanding how things work. These were all players Geordie Tommy had been tracking for ages - well before BG came in. Agreed most other managers would have wanted a 4th striker and that’s down to Garner but I think you’ll find a lot of these players would have arrived anyway. Maybe, we’ll never know. But TW’s recruitment was pretty faultless until Garner came in.
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Post by orgasmic on Mar 31, 2021 21:17:44 GMT
If the new builder came in knowing the foundations were faulty he should have worked on those first rather than build on top. Which is why Tisdale is getting some blame but why Barton? Because he came in saying he could fix the foundations but hasn’t. In fact he is currently doing more damage to them.
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Post by 4d on Mar 31, 2021 21:44:44 GMT
If you think recruitment would have been much different without Garner then you’re still not understanding how things work. These were all players Geordie Tommy had been tracking for ages - well before BG came in. Agreed most other managers would have wanted a 4th striker and that’s down to Garner but I think you’ll find a lot of these players would have arrived anyway. Maybe, we’ll never know. But TW’s recruitment was pretty faultless until Garner came in. Not sure about that, and I say that as someone who still thinks a number of those signed last summer will go in to have good careers, hopefully with us. He pulled off a master piece with JCH but how many other signings are an undoubted success? Jaakkola for sure but for every JCH and Jaakkola there’s a Stefan Payne and JVS. Personally think his success with JCH convinced the board to give him a lot more control hence the change of direction with more of a head coach appointed who was prepared to work within that structure.
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Post by Gassy on Mar 31, 2021 21:50:47 GMT
Maybe, we’ll never know. But TW’s recruitment was pretty faultless until Garner came in. Not sure about that, and I say that as someone who still thinks a number of those signed last summer will go in to have good careers, hopefully with us. He pulled off a master piece with JCH but how many other signings are an undoubted success? Jaakkola for sure but for every JCH and Jaakkola there’s a Stefan Payne and JVS. Personally think his success with JCH convinced the board to give him a lot more control hence the change of direction with more of a head coach appointed who was prepared to work within that structure. Faultless was a bit of an exaggeration - Payne I’ll agree with but I think JVS gets a lot in unfair criticism (now though, before he was awful). Either way he was an improvement on Smith and potentially Slocombe. The rest of his signings in Coughlans summer window were also pretty good. But either way, that’s 2 players in comparison to pretty much all of them since Garner came in. The only way we’ll know is if TW is here next season, but considering Garner took personal responsibility in his letter to the squad, then I’d suggest he had a huge part to play.
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Post by 4d on Mar 31, 2021 22:03:21 GMT
Not sure about that, and I say that as someone who still thinks a number of those signed last summer will go in to have good careers, hopefully with us. He pulled off a master piece with JCH but how many other signings are an undoubted success? Jaakkola for sure but for every JCH and Jaakkola there’s a Stefan Payne and JVS. Personally think his success with JCH convinced the board to give him a lot more control hence the change of direction with more of a head coach appointed who was prepared to work within that structure. Faultless was a bit of an exaggeration - Payne I’ll agree with but I think JVS gets a lot in unfair criticism (now though, before he was awful). Either way he was an improvement on Smith and potentially Slocombe. The rest of his signings in Coughlans summer window were also pretty good. But either way, that’s 2 players in comparison to pretty much all of them since Garner came in. The only way we’ll know is if TW is here next season, but considering Garner took personal responsibility in his letter to the squad, then I’d suggest he had a huge part to play. Guess it’s all about different opinions but I think JVS is probably the worse professional gk I’ve seen. I don’t like criticising players, especially those that give their all, but he doesnt even look like a goaly to me, just a bloke put there because he’s tall.
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Post by socrates on Mar 31, 2021 22:15:29 GMT
Barton’s bang on but the timing is atrocious. It’s something that he should write in a book once he’s left. To Gasheads we know he’s telling it like it is but to everyone else he’s probably coming across as a dick. Also with a court case coming up having a new possible court action against you isn’t ideal. as I’ve said all along if he keeps his nose clean I think he can do good things for our club going in to next season. But this probably isn’t helping his cause or our clubs chances of staying up or even his chances of still being our manager next season. The short of it is Barton could be very good for Rovers but he’s likely to bugger things up before he gets that far and I’ve thought that all along and said it on here. It’s a shame because the potential is there but then that’s what we’ve been saying about our club for how long ? Something always gets in the way.
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Post by aghast on Mar 31, 2021 22:26:22 GMT
I wonder if JB is being as outspoken as he is because he knows he has nothing to lose, unlike PT and BG?
Even if (when) we're relegated, there's surely no way Wael is going to sack yet another manager this season, especially one who has had to hit the ground running with a bunch of demotivated players who are surely convinced they are losers.
Of course forthcoming court cases might decide things for Wael without him having to take difficult decisons, but that's another reason Joey doesn't care about the consequences of his football-related utterings.
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Post by CrispPusher on Apr 1, 2021 0:56:42 GMT
I wonder if JB is being as outspoken as he is because he knows he has nothing to lose, unlike PT and BG? Even if (when) we're relegated, there's surely no way Wael is going to sack yet another manager this season, especially one who has had to hit the ground running with a bunch of demotivated players who are surely convinced they are losers. Of course forthcoming court cases might decide things for Wael without him having to take difficult decisons, but that's another reason Joey doesn't care about the consequences of his football-related utterings. Doubtful Barton needs the money either. Tisdale's made astute investments outside of football and isn't short of money, I could understand if Garner was looking to seek some financial retribution but personally I think it is pure conjecture and bullshit from the Mail. We shall see.
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Post by peterparker on Apr 1, 2021 6:50:15 GMT
I wonder if JB is being as outspoken as he is because he knows he has nothing to lose, unlike PT and BG? Even if (when) we're relegated, there's surely no way Wael is going to sack yet another manager this season, especially one who has had to hit the ground running with a bunch of demotivated players who are surely convinced they are losers. Of course forthcoming court cases might decide things for Wael without him having to take difficult decisons, but that's another reason Joey doesn't care about the consequences of his football-related utterings. Doubtful Barton needs the money either. Tisdale's made astute investments outside of football and isn't short of money, I could understand if Garner was looking to seek some financial retribution but personally I think it is pure conjecture and bullshit from the Mail. We shall see. It probably is a whole lot of nothing from The Mail and won't come too much, but a reminder that you can't just say anything without potential consequences. In my job, If someone says I am crap, fine., If they say I am negligent, then it suggests I could be facilitating financial misconduct and I wouldn't he happy with that
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Post by Jomo on Apr 1, 2021 7:02:18 GMT
Doubtful Barton needs the money either. Tisdale's made astute investments outside of football and isn't short of money, I could understand if Garner was looking to seek some financial retribution but personally I think it is pure conjecture and bullshit from the Mail. We shall see. It probably is a whole lot of nothing from The Mail and won't come too much, but a reminder that you can't just say anything without potential consequences. In my job, If someone says I am crap, fine., If they say I am negligent, then it suggests I could be facilitating financial misconduct and I wouldn't he happy with that Exactly, it seems that some people are underestimating the severity of the word "negligent" in a professional environment. I mean, even if you're talking it in general terms, for example there's a lot of bad parents out there, but negligent parents are a whole different thing. In work, if you're labelled as negligent, that is a pretty serious accusation. To have it topped off with "if they were doctors, they'd be struck off", if I was them I'd be furious. Hopefully it does come to nothing, but JB has to get it through to his head (he's in his late thirties now after all) that your actions and your words have consequences. Just get on with the coaching, motivate the players, be as positive as you can (like at the start of your tenure) and leave the rest out of it.
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Post by Antonio Fargas on Apr 1, 2021 7:51:49 GMT
Barton’s bang on but the timing is atrocious. It’s something that he should write in a book once he’s left. To Gasheads we know he’s telling it like it is but to everyone else he’s probably coming across as a dick. Also with a court case coming up having a new possible court action against you isn’t ideal. as I’ve said all along if he keeps his nose clean I think he can do good things for our club going in to next season. But this probably isn’t helping his cause or our clubs chances of staying up or even his chances of still being our manager next season. The short of it is Barton could be very good for Rovers but he’s likely to bugger things up before he gets that far and I’ve thought that all along and said it on here. It’s a shame because the potential is there but then that’s what we’ve been saying about our club for how long ? Something always gets in the way. Yeah, when something always gets in the way (see our search for a new stadium) sooner or later you have to realise it's not the things it's you.
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Post by gregsy on Apr 1, 2021 8:37:32 GMT
Barton’s bang on but the timing is atrocious. It’s something that he should write in a book once he’s left. To Gasheads we know he’s telling it like it is but to everyone else he’s probably coming across as a dick. Also with a court case coming up having a new possible court action against you isn’t ideal. as I’ve said all along if he keeps his nose clean I think he can do good things for our club going in to next season. But this probably isn’t helping his cause or our clubs chances of staying up or even his chances of still being our manager next season. The short of it is Barton could be very good for Rovers but he’s likely to bugger things up before he gets that far and I’ve thought that all along and said it on here. It’s a shame because the potential is there but then that’s what we’ve been saying about our club for how long ? Something always gets in the way. Yeah, when something always gets in the way (see our search for a new stadium) sooner or later you have to realise it's not the things it's you. AF is out philosophising Socrates.... Blimey....
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Post by gashead1981 on Apr 1, 2021 8:52:10 GMT
We'll have to agree to disagree then. But considering Wael pulled the trigger after 11 games with his own squad and backing, suggests he was probably considering it last season. Ironically we had 11 games left of last season so there's no way he'd have survived IMO. I wonder if BG was set a performance target over X games in his contract, and we then had to wait for those extra 11 games before we could dismiss him after he failed to meet the pts target? If so, then no wonder Wael was so keen to continue playing last season, as he knew if we didn't play he have to let BG loose with this season's transfer budget. There is no way the LMA or PFA would allow a performance clause in a managers contract. That’s why you have to pay the managers contract up or off if you want to get rid of them and why they are offered deals for a set amount of time.
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Post by gregsy on Apr 1, 2021 8:55:05 GMT
I wonder if BG was set a performance target over X games in his contract, and we then had to wait for those extra 11 games before we could dismiss him after he failed to meet the pts target? If so, then no wonder Wael was so keen to continue playing last season, as he knew if we didn't play he have to let BG loose with this season's transfer budget. There is no way the LMA or PFA would allow a performance clause in a managers contract. That’s why you have to pay the managers contract up or off if you want to get rid of them and why they are offered deals for a set amount of time. As you know about these things is there such a thing as (players have written in to contracts) relegation release clauses that, can work either way?
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Post by gashead1981 on Apr 1, 2021 9:34:02 GMT
There is no way the LMA or PFA would allow a performance clause in a managers contract. That’s why you have to pay the managers contract up or off if you want to get rid of them and why they are offered deals for a set amount of time. As you know about these things is there such a thing as (players have written in to contracts) relegation release clauses that, can work either way? Players contracts can have relegation clauses which will weight in the clubs favour mainly because of the financial penalites involved. Release clauses, options for further contract extentions will usually weight in the players favour as we saw with Matty Taylor and Ed Upson who have been transferred or had an extention based on appearances. Managers have a different type of contract to players but you cant enforce a clause where you can say to them that you'll be sacked without penalty if you dont achieve X, Y or Z performance targets.
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Post by lastminutewinner on Apr 1, 2021 11:06:23 GMT
Which is why Tisdale is getting some blame but why Barton? Because he came in saying he could fix the foundations but hasn’t. In fact he is currently doing more damage to them. Well he wouldnt have got very far if he said "sorry lads you are as good as down, im gonna try and get rid of most of you in the summer, so do as you please" is he? Truth is the players arent good enough and there is very little that can be done about that other than replace them, which he cant do..
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Post by Kingswood Polak on Apr 1, 2021 11:40:16 GMT
An honest question with no agenda, but what do people think Weal's thoughts will be about all this from his place in Amman? Probably loving the fact that he's somehow been devoid of any responsibility. I like the bloke and I'm very thankful for the fund's he's put in. BUT it's his club, he owns the whole thing, he's the one who recruited the CEO(s), Head of Recruitment(then promoted him to DOF), and the managers. As I've said before, if he keeps employing the wrong people in the first place, then surely he must shoulder responsibility as well? Been thinking about this and how reluctant/worried people have become to even come close to questioning Wael’s decisions in this. Were this NH then this place would be in meltdown. I understand he is sole owner and I am grateful but it shouldn’t deflect from his role in this
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