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Post by baggins on Mar 28, 2018 11:13:32 GMT
Has it actually been proved yet that it was the Russians?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 11:19:04 GMT
Has it actually been proved yet that it was the Russians? It is not something that you will ever be able to prove in a Court of Law. The Russians are well aware of that. Did the Russians shoot down the Malaysian Airliner over the Ukraine? Nothing can be proven about that, but all the evidence points in their direction. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Mar 28, 2018 12:02:00 GMT
Has it actually been proved yet that it was the Russians? It hasn't, but it's pretty unusual for other nations to pull ambassadors based on us just saying "look what they did". There must be some evidence behind the scenes that we don't know about. |
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Post by baggins on Mar 28, 2018 12:54:38 GMT
Has it actually been proved yet that it was the Russians? It hasn't, but it's pretty unusual for other nations to pull ambassadors based on us just saying "look what they did". There must be some evidence behind the scenes that we don't know about. Bit like our new ground. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 28, 2018 22:30:39 GMT
Has it actually been proved yet that it was the Russians? Think of it this way, who has the motive, means and track record? Putin is on record about retribution against double agents, the nerve agent is pretty specialist (it is not something that can be knocked up by someone without specialist facilities) and they have history. Rather than trying to help, the Russian Embassy in London tweeted a picture of Hercule Poirot. Today they are saying we have to prove it wasn't us. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 28, 2018 22:58:59 GMT
Funny Nobby should mention MH17 over Ukraine a few years ago. At the time Russia denied involvement, suggesting all sorts of alternative scenarios in order to muddy the water.
They suggested it was a radar guided missile fired from a radar-less plane. Then a heat seaking missile that hit not the hot engines but the cockpit. Then it was a Ukrainian ground to air missile, whose trajectory needed to be over a rebel held area and whose missile body was recovered by inspectors which showed that it had to be the latest version that only Russia owned at the time. So it was either Russia or it was acquired by the separatists from Russia and who had Russian training. I also recall that the black box ended up in Moscow first.
Then there is Syria. The suggestion was that it was rebels who released chemical weapons, first deliberately then 'maybe' by accident when they attacked a facility. Yet when the UN wanted to send in specialist investigation team, it was vetoed not once but three times by ...... Russia.
And now suggestions that this could have been from Sweden, Porton Down, the US or the Czech Republic. That it is a false flag exercise to blame Russia, to deflect from Brexit, to try and take the World Cup from them out of spite. Or a suicide act, a drug deal that went wrong.
It's called Maskirovka in Russian. The art of suggesting so many alternative scenarios despite how far fetched in order to confuse and sow division by making the reader doubt everything including the most likely cause.
Then of course there is the Litvinenko case and maybe a dozen other suspicious deaths in the UK alone. Putin's last serious election rival was killed on a bridge in Moscow, this time his biggest rival was barred on legal grounds. Who knows how many more. And before that the previous Ukrainian president had 'something' happen to him which has altered his looks forever. Add to that the excursions into Georgia and the genuine threats to other former Soviet states.
I've been concerned about Putin for some years now and see him as a real threat. One poster tried to defend him a couple of years ago, I wish I made more of an effort to reply to thst particular post.
Russia can be a truely great country with vast natural resources, but it is run by a small group whose paranoid, Muscovy mindset is blinding it to genuine friendship and resorting to becoming introverted and scared (for example, recalling the Kursk sinking where we could have helped but they denied it happened until it was too late). Not a good mix when they are a nuclear power.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2018 6:23:48 GMT
Reckon it's time the MOD started buying up some horses so we can reform the Light Brigade !
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Post by gasstrictband on Mar 29, 2018 6:38:00 GMT
Into the Valley of death rode the six hundred.
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Post by inee on Mar 29, 2018 10:27:51 GMT
Reckon it's time the MOD started buying up some horses so we can reform the Light Brigade ! Don't be so dimp, will only cost a few thousand to stick a lamp socket on every squadies tin hat screw in a bulb and they will glow in radiation simple really  |
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Post by inee on Mar 29, 2018 11:38:01 GMT
Funny Nobby should mention MH17 over Ukraine a few years ago. At the time Russia denied involvement, suggesting all sorts of alternative scenarios in order to muddy the water. They suggested it was a radar guided missile fired from a radar-less plane. Then a heat seaking missile that hit not the hot engines but the cockpit. Then it was a Ukrainian ground to air missile, whose trajectory needed to be over a rebel held area and whose missile body was recovered by inspectors which showed that it had to be the latest version that only Russia owned at the time. So it was either Russia or it was acquired by the separatists from Russia and who had Russian training. I also recall that the black box ended up in Moscow first. Then there is Syria. The suggestion was that it was rebels who released chemical weapons, first deliberately then 'maybe' by accident when they attacked a facility. Yet when the UN wanted to send in specialist investigation team, it was vetoed not once but three times by ...... Russia. And now suggestions that this could have been from Sweden, Porton Down, the US or the Czech Republic. That it is a false flag exercise to blame Russia, to deflect from Brexit, to try and take the World Cup from them out of spite. Or a suicide act, a drug deal that went wrong. It's called Maskirovka in Russian. The art of suggesting so many alternative scenarios despite how far fetched in order to confuse and sow division by making the reader doubt everything including the most likely cause. Then of course there is the Litvinenko case and maybe a dozen other suspicious deaths in the UK alone. Putin's last serious election rival was killed on a bridge in Moscow, this time his biggest rival was barred on legal grounds. Who knows how many more. And before that the previous Ukrainian president had 'something' happen to him which has altered his looks forever. Add to that the excursions into Georgia and the genuine threats to other former Soviet states. I've been concerned about Putin for some years now and see him as a real threat. One poster tried to defend him a couple of years ago, I wish I made more of an effort to reply to thst particular post. Russia can be a truely great country with vast natural resources, but it is run by a small group whose paranoid, Muscovy mindset is blinding it to genuine friendship and resorting to becoming introverted and scared (for example, recalling the Kursk sinking where we could have helped but they denied it happened until it was too late). Not a good mix when they are a nuclear power. To answer who has the means ,well us nato members, don't forget israel , all we seem to know about the nerve agent used is from the word of someone who defected and initially said it was designed to be knocked up easily from common chemicals so it could be made and hidden from inspectors ,so how does one defector know the formula when they also said no one person knew how to make it solo . My question is how can we reliably say that a particular nerve agent was used even though there is no real evidence of it's existence ,Lets face it the authorities still cant make up their minds over where it was deployed first there was some on the park bench,then their food, now their front door , it seems to shabby to be an intelligence service hit(from what ever country) also strange that no one else has landed up in hospital or dead as a result of the nerve agent they so happily scattered everywhere long shot but it could of been his daughter lots of agents would kill family at the drop of a hat from any side ,again would someone like russia carry out such a sloppy attack. It's almost as if the so called hit was carried out by feckin Mary ,Mungo and Midge, yeah lets sprinkle this powder around and it will only affect those two ,lets also face the fact that arms are easily obtainable in the old eastern bloc ,abandoned storage ,military barracks ,weapon caches ,so it's not inconceivable that anything is available on the russian black market. I said earlier that a man like putin ex special forces proud russian ,( i can only imagine the hell in his own eyes when the eastern bloc came crashing down) is wanting to rebuild the former soviet union the way it was (din't someone else try this in the 30's and failed ) , the other thing not mentioned in all this is the clamour to the east by the eu(Fourth Reich) ,putin would want to put a stop to that, in my opinion we only have our allies to blame as Churchill wanted to continue east from Germany to push the russians back but others prevented it ,it's well known that towards the end of ww2 the western allies were in a race to get as far east in germany as it could to hold back the russians ,german units surrendered then asked if they could fight with us against the russians, Churchill had also been thinking along those lines ,hell russia is technically still at war with japan over a group of island (funnily enough that we and the yanks gave to the russians) during the war. Maskirovka we call it conspiracy theories of which many have been true, lets face it if a punk band like crass could almost start ww3 with a prank then it's possible that this is another carried out by a country who have much to gain from unrest it's entirely possible that some organisation like mossad could be behind it as they are very good at these kinds of attack, the only truth is that we will never know who did it. As for the sub do you really think if the boot was on the other foot that we or any of our allies would allow russia to try and rescue any of our submariners if it meant getting on board one of our subs ,in military terms one crew is disposable if it protects classified info. If you think i'm pro russian you have it very wrong it wouldn't matter to me one jot if the whole area was turned to glass |
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 29, 2018 22:09:58 GMT
Ex special forces? I thought he was KGB through and through rather than Spetnaz, spending a lot of the 80s in Dresden.
But that is besides the point and while I don't agree with all you have written I don't think you are pro-Russian 😗
My grandfather served in the war and family folklore (possibly embellished over time) had him predicting that we would join with Germany against Russia once the war was over.
On a happier note, I see that the daughter is starting to make good progress.
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Post by inee on Apr 2, 2018 17:34:15 GMT
difficult to find out , however the special forces were intertwined with the kgb(i think from memory the nkvd first established the spetnaz groups), and i believe even today that integration still exists. Thing with the kgb and it earlier incarnations was they were always military units rather than police units like the gestapo(who incidentally had many conferences together during the german occupation of poland) so chances are putin like many others would have received some form of training in the spetnaz units. Time to open a book me feels on who done it, current thinking is the daughters friend, think this one will rumble on for a while yet. Off topic Stu some good books to read which for some is a real eyeopener for others just confirms that the rich's involvement in a global elite ibm and the holocaust(feckin hate that word) coke machine the dirty truth , touches on ww2 and other evil deeds a look into henry ford and his help before and during the war Vatican Assassins: “Wounded In The House Of My Friends” dont take this one literally but some parts are familiar,its a slog of a read another good book to read is ss1 a book about himmler which focuses later on cooperation from the west to supply steel and other goods through Switzerland |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 12:06:13 GMT
Funny Nobby should mention MH17 over Ukraine a few years ago. At the time Russia denied involvement, suggesting all sorts of alternative scenarios in order to muddy the water. They suggested it was a radar guided missile fired from a radar-less plane. Then a heat seaking missile that hit not the hot engines but the cockpit. Then it was a Ukrainian ground to air missile, whose trajectory needed to be over a rebel held area and whose missile body was recovered by inspectors which showed that it had to be the latest version that only Russia owned at the time. So it was either Russia or it was acquired by the separatists from Russia and who had Russian training. I also recall that the black box ended up in Moscow first. Then there is Syria. The suggestion was that it was rebels who released chemical weapons, first deliberately then 'maybe' by accident when they attacked a facility. Yet when the UN wanted to send in specialist investigation team, it was vetoed not once but three times by ...... Russia. And now suggestions that this could have been from Sweden, Porton Down, the US or the Czech Republic. That it is a false flag exercise to blame Russia, to deflect from Brexit, to try and take the World Cup from them out of spite. Or a suicide act, a drug deal that went wrong. It's called Maskirovka in Russian. The art of suggesting so many alternative scenarios despite how far fetched in order to confuse and sow division by making the reader doubt everything including the most likely cause. Then of course there is the Litvinenko case and maybe a dozen other suspicious deaths in the UK alone. Putin's last serious election rival was killed on a bridge in Moscow, this time his biggest rival was barred on legal grounds. Who knows how many more. And before that the previous Ukrainian president had 'something' happen to him which has altered his looks forever. Add to that the excursions into Georgia and the genuine threats to other former Soviet states. I've been concerned about Putin for some years now and see him as a real threat. One poster tried to defend him a couple of years ago, I wish I made more of an effort to reply to thst particular post. Russia can be a truely great country with vast natural resources, but it is run by a small group whose paranoid, Muscovy mindset is blinding it to genuine friendship and resorting to becoming introverted and scared (for example, recalling the Kursk sinking where we could have helped but they denied it happened until it was too late). Not a good mix when they are a nuclear power. Thank god putins the only world leader with nuclear weapons that anyone would worry about. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 12:10:45 GMT
difficult to find out , however the special forces were intertwined with the kgb(i think from memory the nkvd first established the spetnaz groups), and i believe even today that integration still exists. Thing with the kgb and it earlier incarnations was they were always military units rather than police units like the gestapo(who incidentally had many conferences together during the german occupation of poland) so chances are putin like many others would have received some form of training in the spetnaz units. Time to open a book me feels on who done it, current thinking is the daughters friend, think this one will rumble on for a while yet. Off topic Stu some good books to read which for some is a real eyeopener for others just confirms that the rich's involvement in a global elite ibm and the holocaust(feckin hate that word) coke machine the dirty truth , touches on ww2 and other evil deeds a look into henry ford and his help before and during the war Vatican Assassins: “Wounded In The House Of My Friends” dont take this one literally but some parts are familiar,its a slog of a read another good book to read is ss1 a book about himmler which focuses later on cooperation from the west to supply steel and other goods through Switzerland Im reading "ratburger" at the moment by david walliams,its funny. What word would you prefer for "the holocaust"? Why do you hate that word? |
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Post by William Wilson on Apr 4, 2018 15:51:52 GMT
difficult to find out , however the special forces were intertwined with the kgb(i think from memory the nkvd first established the spetnaz groups), and i believe even today that integration still exists. Thing with the kgb and it earlier incarnations was they were always military units rather than police units like the gestapo(who incidentally had many conferences together during the german occupation of poland) so chances are putin like many others would have received some form of training in the spetnaz units. Time to open a book me feels on who done it, current thinking is the daughters friend, think this one will rumble on for a while yet. Off topic Stu some good books to read which for some is a real eyeopener for others just confirms that the rich's involvement in a global elite ibm and the holocaust(feckin hate that word) coke machine the dirty truth , touches on ww2 and other evil deeds a look into henry ford and his help before and during the war Vatican Assassins: “Wounded In The House Of My Friends” dont take this one literally but some parts are familiar,its a slog of a read another good book to read is ss1 a book about himmler which focuses later on cooperation from the west to supply steel and other goods through Switzerland Im reading "ratburger" at the moment by david walliams,its funny. What word would you prefer for "the holocaust"? Why do you hate that word? Seems a strange word to hate. How about Hypocaust? The means by which Romans heated their homes. Do you hate that too, inee? |
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Post by William Wilson on Apr 4, 2018 15:55:03 GMT
Has it actually been proved yet that it was the Russians? Three reasons that prove that it has to have been the Russians. 1. Putin`s barmy, and he`s capable of anything. 2. Er 3. That`s it. |
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Post by inee on Apr 4, 2018 16:15:08 GMT
difficult to find out , however the special forces were intertwined with the kgb(i think from memory the nkvd first established the spetnaz groups), and i believe even today that integration still exists. Thing with the kgb and it earlier incarnations was they were always military units rather than police units like the gestapo(who incidentally had many conferences together during the german occupation of poland) so chances are putin like many others would have received some form of training in the spetnaz units. Time to open a book me feels on who done it, current thinking is the daughters friend, think this one will rumble on for a while yet. Off topic Stu some good books to read which for some is a real eyeopener for others just confirms that the rich's involvement in a global elite ibm and the holocaust(feckin hate that word) coke machine the dirty truth , touches on ww2 and other evil deeds a look into henry ford and his help before and during the war Vatican Assassins: “Wounded In The House Of My Friends” dont take this one literally but some parts are familiar,its a slog of a read another good book to read is ss1 a book about himmler which focuses later on cooperation from the west to supply steel and other goods through Switzerland Im reading "ratburger" at the moment by david walliams,its funny. What word would you prefer for "the holocaust"? Why do you hate that word? Because holocaust is a word that only existed in one religion, it's a word that is based on outright lies and when bandied about everyone is supposed to shut up and believe or risk a trip to court for denial , i also hate the word as it gives one religion the power to lord it up over others, is there any other religion that has such a word that can be used whenever they are losing an argument, indeed is there any other religion that continually bleats on about and starts name calling when ever some one says anything they don't like( i don't like your god(corbyn) bb but the amount of stick he is getting from jews and others is ridiculous because of something he did or didn't do etc). Can you imagine how people would laugh if he offended say the catholic church and they said he was anti catholic no one would give it a second thought. One thing that really grates on my nerves is the 6 million figure, 6 million jews did not die at the hands of the germans, i know some will say but millions did, yes millions did die, but not 6 million and it really disturbs me that even today people are taught and still believe that figure, wasn't it bad enough so we made up a number ,only problem is if you use large numbers like that most can't imagine something that big, did you also know that Auschwitz constantly amends the number of people killed at the camp on a regular basis, one of the only places that does as new evidence comes to light. Something else that winds me up is the amount of doctored or staged photo's put out by the allies at the end of the war ,wasn't the truth bad enough ,why the need to embellish something of that magnitude. Something i also find interesting is even today people are silenced over some of those pictures, an american came forward and said he set up one of the famous photos of belsen the one with several corpses on an oven slide he stated that he was told to bulldoze those bodies into position at the request of an officer to show the horror etc and was told several times to keep it quite during his lifetime ,now to me when that was done in the name of propaganda ,the yanks were just as guilty if not more so than the bastards who did the original killing ,using corpses as props shows a level of disrespect of the dead unparalleled . Did millions die in camps through slave labour ,starvation ,abuse and murder yes they did and to deny that is a special kind of stupid ,it's just that i have a problem with the made up figures, ffs let the truth out ie real figures also it's time to get the truth out about just who did the killing and abuse in the camps ,it wasn't just the germans ,but for some reason the roles the jewish camp police played in it all is very well hidden. Other stuff well hidden is the fact that not many countries would take on the jews who managed to get out, i forget the name of a ship laden with escaped jews that was turned back by us and the us ,which was then torpedoes, so are these numbers and propaganda pics an attempt by the allies to kinda shed some of the blame from themselves in turning a blind eye, especially driving some from their land and giving it over to others, who in reality you would think had learned enough to be acceptable and peaceable towards others instead of being constantly at war with those who were displaced. One thing i do know is that during our lifetime the truth will never be known, it's one of the reasons i always say read from both side when looking for answers as the truth is somewhere in between it also shows how enemies will supply raw materials to others for money. To bring it back on topic no-one seems to mention putins close links with senior jews in russia and israel (even though more jews were killed by the russians during ww2 than the germans ,and even more seem to deny that the EU is just the 4th Reich by another name which is advancing east. Hope this answers your question, i'm not a nazi and i dont deny what happened i'm just fed up with how lies have become so believeable to the majority |
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Post by inee on Apr 4, 2018 16:17:20 GMT
Im reading "ratburger" at the moment by david walliams,its funny. What word would you prefer for "the holocaust"? Why do you hate that word? Seems a strange word to hate. How about Hypocaust? The means by which Romans heated their homes. Do you hate that too, inee? Explained in my last post. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 16:45:08 GMT
Im reading "ratburger" at the moment by david walliams,its funny. What word would you prefer for "the holocaust"? Why do you hate that word? Because holocaust is a word that only existed in one religion, it's a word that is based on outright lies and when bandied about everyone is supposed to shut up and believe or risk a trip to court for denial , i also hate the word as it gives one religion the power to lord it up over others, is there any other religion that has such a word that can be used whenever they are losing an argument, indeed is there any other religion that continually bleats on about and starts name calling when ever some one says anything they don't like( i don't like your god(corbyn) bb but the amount of stick he is getting from jews and others is ridiculous because of something he did or didn't do etc). Can you imagine how people would laugh if he offended say the catholic church and they said he was anti catholic no one would give it a second thought. One thing that really grates on my nerves is the 6 million figure, 6 million jews did not die at the hands of the germans, i know some will say but millions did, yes millions did die, but not 6 million and it really disturbs me that even today people are taught and still believe that figure, wasn't it bad enough so we made up a number ,only problem is if you use large numbers like that most can't imagine something that big, did you also know that Auschwitz constantly amends the number of people killed at the camp on a regular basis, one of the only places that does as new evidence comes to light. Something else that winds me up is the amount of doctored or staged photo's put out by the allies at the end of the war ,wasn't the truth bad enough ,why the need to embellish something of that magnitude. Something i also find interesting is even today people are silenced over some of those pictures, an american came forward and said he set up one of the famous photos of belsen the one with several corpses on an oven slide he stated that he was told to bulldoze those bodies into position at the request of an officer to show the horror etc and was told several times to keep it quite during his lifetime ,now to me when that was done in the name of propaganda ,the yanks were just as guilty if not more so than the bastards who did the original killing ,using corpses as props shows a level of disrespect of the dead unparalleled . Did millions die in camps through slave labour ,starvation ,abuse and murder yes they did and to deny that is a special kind of stupid ,it's just that i have a problem with the made up figures, ffs let the truth out ie real figures also it's time to get the truth out about just who did the killing and abuse in the camps ,it wasn't just the germans ,but for some reason the roles the jewish camp police played in it all is very well hidden. Other stuff well hidden is the fact that not many countries would take on the jews who managed to get out, i forget the name of a ship laden with escaped jews that was turned back by us and the us ,which was then torpedoes, so are these numbers and propaganda pics an attempt by the allies to kinda shed some of the blame from themselves in turning a blind eye, especially driving some from their land and giving it over to others, who in reality you would think had learned enough to be acceptable and peaceable towards others instead of being constantly at war with those who were displaced. One thing i do know is that during our lifetime the truth will never be known, it's one of the reasons i always say read from both side when looking for answers as the truth is somewhere in between it also shows how enemies will supply raw materials to others for money. To bring it back on topic no-one seems to mention putins close links with senior jews in russia and israel (even though more jews were killed by the russians during ww2 than the germans ,and even more seem to deny that the EU is just the 4th Reich by another name which is advancing east. Hope this answers your question, i'm not a nazi and i dont deny what happened i'm just fed up with how lies have become so believeable to the majority Thing is though Inee, and I don't say this glibly, is that the actual number is not important. Was it 6 miilion, 5 million 4 or 3 million? The final number doesn't really matter. What we do know is that it was the murder of a people, based on their religion, that was carried out on an industrial scale. I see the effects nearly every day here in Frankfurt. In the pavements around the older streets are brass plaques known as 'Stolpersteine'. They carry the name and details of the people who were removed (and killed) from that house by the Nazis. Believe you me, there are loads of them. Even today, outside every Synagogue in Germany there is a Police van with two Police Officers sat there to protect the Synagogue. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The threat now is not from Nazis, but the religion of peace. There are no Police Officers sat guarding any Mosques in Germany. |
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Post by inee on Apr 4, 2018 19:08:13 GMT
I can see where your coming from nobbs ,but tis just the way i'm wired i can't get past the lie on the numbers game especially knowing the majority of people world wide just accept it as the truth. you touched on something i included in my reply but at a slightly different tangent, and that is the synagogue protection , is it any wonder that those measures are necessary ,given the way they are treated by the israelis as i said before you would expect the jews to be peaceable towards others, the reality is unfortunately the opposite (before you start i detest all organised religions, just some more than others). 2 officers guarding synagogues to me is a show as lets face it if someone wanted to attack 2 officers would not make a blind bit of difference ,the synagogue guards is probably more to do with the past than any real threat ,germany is an odd place with people still expected to be sorry for something that happened in the past ,one thing i heard a while back but never realised was taking in refugees part of the german constitution which would explain why more refugees are settling in germany |
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