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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 6:06:50 GMT
That is my point Oldie Remain parties are not representing the will of the people because the Leavers won. People voted in their own interests and the Remain parties, including Labour, it is they who do not have our best interests at heart. I don't disagree that far right don't either, but isn't that the problem? No party does, the chickens have come home to roost for ALL parties and isn't that why the Brexit Party, formed six weeks ago gained so many votes? Adding up several undemocratic parties isn't an argument is it unless democracy is now dead. The Brexit Party was formed to execute the wishes of the people while the rest are doing the opposite. May did try and compromise but as they ALL have their own self interests it couldn't be achieved. Politicians putting their own self interests first will only work until there is a general election, people are not stupid, we know what's happening we just bide our time and put our cross in the appropriate box. I couldn't disagree more. The key point is, inarguably, is that we live in a Representative Democracy. There is not a fixed time for a decision, we change or confirm as facts emerge or situations change. I have no idea how you can conclude that parties voted for are undemocratic? They, we, disagree with you. We make the point under a functioning representative democracy, not one that imposes our view when evidence comes to light or the majority opposes us. It took 41 years before the people were given a voice over the EU. Facts emerged and situations changed over that time. What was the Common Market became the EEC and that then became the EU. Treaties were signed, yet the people had no voice. Was that democracy in action? 41 YEARS!!!!! " There is not a fixed time for a decision, we change or confirm as facts emerge or situations change." Where was your version of democracy in that time? After 41 years, facts emerged and situations changed, and the people made a decision.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 6:25:35 GMT
Anna Soubry, who seems to appear on every political programme on tv spouting her 'cancel Brexit' views.....The EU voting numbers in her Broxtowe seat were interesting:-
Brexit Party - 11,668 Change UK - 1542
First chance they get to vote for her, and she'll be gone. We need a GE to remove the deadwood like her.
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Post by peterparker on May 28, 2019 7:14:09 GMT
Anna Soubry, who seems to appear on every political programme on tv spouting her 'cancel Brexit' views.....The EU voting numbers in her Broxtowe seat were interesting:- Brexit Party - 11,668 Change UK - 1542 First chance they get to vote for her, and she'll be gone. We need a GE to remove the deadwood like her. As opposed to Farage who appears everywhere promoting BREXIT, despite his protestations to the contrary
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 7:37:19 GMT
Anna Soubry, who seems to appear on every political programme on tv spouting her 'cancel Brexit' views.....The EU voting numbers in her Broxtowe seat were interesting:- Brexit Party - 11,668 Change UK - 1542 First chance they get to vote for her, and she'll be gone. We need a GE to remove the deadwood like her. As opposed to Farage who appears everywhere promoting BREXIT, despite his protestations to the contrary Well, Farage does represent millions of people as shown by the voting numbers. Soubry appears to represent just 1542 people, which doesn't justify the amount of times she is on television. Her constituents voted for a Conservative MP who promised to respect the referendum result. Now they have a ChangeUK MP who is doing everything she can to overturn the referendum result.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 9:00:19 GMT
This is interesting. The new PM will not be able to re-open the WA for negotiation as it is a condition of the April 11th Extension.... No WA re-negotiation
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 9:17:55 GMT
I couldn't disagree more. The key point is, inarguably, is that we live in a Representative Democracy. There is not a fixed time for a decision, we change or confirm as facts emerge or situations change. I have no idea how you can conclude that parties voted for are undemocratic? They, we, disagree with you. We make the point under a functioning representative democracy, not one that imposes our view when evidence comes to light or the majority opposes us. It took 41 years before the people were given a voice over the EU. Facts emerged and situations changed over that time. What was the Common Market became the EEC and that then became the EU. Treaties were signed, yet the people had no voice. Was that democracy in action? 41 YEARS!!!!! " There is not a fixed time for a decision, we change or confirm as facts emerge or situations change." Where was your version of democracy in that time? After 41 years, facts emerged and situations changed, and the people made a decision. You are right in principle. But what you fail to do, or dont want to do, is recognise that the complete truth of our trading arrangements and the cost of cancelling those with the EU were not properly disclosed. In addition the false premise of the future world wide trading arrangements under no deal was not exposed. Nobody is arguing that the EU has not evolved into a political entity which was not envisaged in 1975. Nobody. I would also agree that this has led to a democratic deficit for all the member states of the EU. But importantly, do we impoverish ourselves to correct this? Especially when 90% of the population feel no effect of the democratic deficit, and a smaller group blame the EU for their economic circumstances when the actual blame lies in the policies emanating from Westminster.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 9:31:06 GMT
It took 41 years before the people were given a voice over the EU. Facts emerged and situations changed over that time. What was the Common Market became the EEC and that then became the EU. Treaties were signed, yet the people had no voice. Was that democracy in action? 41 YEARS!!!!! " There is not a fixed time for a decision, we change or confirm as facts emerge or situations change." Where was your version of democracy in that time? After 41 years, facts emerged and situations changed, and the people made a decision. You are right in principle. But what you fail to do, or dont want to do, is recognise that the complete truth of our trading arrangements and the cost of cancelling those with the EU were not properly disclosed. In addition the false premise of the future world wide trading arrangements under no deal was not exposed. Nobody is arguing that the EU has not evolved into a political entity which was not envisaged in 1975. Nobody. I would also agree that this has led to a democratic deficit for all the member states of the EU. But importantly, do we impoverish ourselves to correct this? Especially when 90% of the population feel no effect of the democratic deficit, and a smaller group blame the EU for their economic circumstances when the actual blame lies in the policies emanating from Westminster. How do countries like Japan, South Korea, Canada etc etc manage to exist as they are not tied to the EU? We could also throw in India, Brazil, America, China etc etc! America, Russia, China, Brazil, India......none of them have a fixed trading deal with the EU. How do they survive? The point that is being missed by the MSM is the self-destruction of the EU. All across the EU we are seeing a dramatic rise in anti-EU parties. After the last election they hold one third of the seats in the EU Parliament. Because of the inherent structural flaws in the Euro (which I think you also agree exist) the EU MUST move towards greater financial and political integration. There is no other way for them to move. However, this will only fuel the anti-EU movement even further. I don't think the EU are flexible enough to sort that out.
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Post by althepirate on May 28, 2019 10:15:37 GMT
As opposed to Farage who appears everywhere promoting BREXIT, despite his protestations to the contrary Well, Farage does represent millions of people as shown by the voting numbers. Soubry appears to represent just 1542 people, which doesn't justify the amount of times she is on television. Her constituents voted for a Conservative MP who promised to respect the referendum result. Now they have a ChangeUK MP who is doing everything she can to overturn the referendum result. This is just one disgusting example of a narcissistic politician giving two fingers to her local constituents as she bathes in her ideology. The far right want to make money and sod the workers whilst the ideologicalists just want to impose their own thoughts on everyone just because they think they know best and to hell with everyone else who has a mind of their own and thinks differently.
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Post by peterparker on May 28, 2019 10:25:48 GMT
You are right in principle. But what you fail to do, or dont want to do, is recognise that the complete truth of our trading arrangements and the cost of cancelling those with the EU were not properly disclosed. In addition the false premise of the future world wide trading arrangements under no deal was not exposed. Nobody is arguing that the EU has not evolved into a political entity which was not envisaged in 1975. Nobody. I would also agree that this has led to a democratic deficit for all the member states of the EU. But importantly, do we impoverish ourselves to correct this? Especially when 90% of the population feel no effect of the democratic deficit, and a smaller group blame the EU for their economic circumstances when the actual blame lies in the policies emanating from Westminster. How do countries like Japan, South Korea, Canada etc etc manage to exist as they are not tied to the EU? We could also throw in India, Brazil, America, China etc etc! America, Russia, China, Brazil, India......none of them have a fixed trading deal with the EU. How do they survive? The point that is being missed by the MSM is the self-destruction of the EU. All across the EU we are seeing a dramatic rise in anti-EU parties. After the last election they hold one third of the seats in the EU Parliament. Because of the inherent structural flaws in the Euro (which I think you also agree exist) the EU MUST move towards greater financial and political integration. There is no other way for them to move. However, this will only fuel the anti-EU movement even further. I don't think the EU are flexible enough to sort that out. What one person has said Britain wouldn't survive outside the EU? No one! only that we will be worse off and it will take anywhere from 10-50 years to get square or prosper (and that timescale is from leavers)
And it's not just about the economy as you yourself have said in the past on here.
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Post by althepirate on May 28, 2019 10:37:24 GMT
Human beings cannot predict the future, predictions are only opinions.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 28, 2019 10:43:46 GMT
Human beings cannot predict the future, predictions are only opinions. Al, if I cut my left leg off is it an opinion that I will be one-legged afterwards? Nice quote but not applicable in this context I suggest.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 10:51:26 GMT
Human beings cannot predict the future, predictions are only opinions. As has been said before, just look at the official predictions before the referendum. 850,000 job losses, property prices collapsing by 20%, Stock Market crash, Emergency Budget to fill a 20 billion pound 'Black Hole', GDP down by 8% in the first year, the UK going into Recession, and this was all going to happen straight after a Leave vote! The Bank of England, the CBI, the IMF, the EU, even the official government position via the Treasury forecast doom and gloom. This was the prediction of the experts, and yet, not a single one of those things happened, zilch! Why should we now listen to those same 'experts' regarding the effect of a No Deal exit? Those same 'experts' also forecast doom and gloom if the UK didn't adopt the Euro. They've been wrong twice on two massive issues.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 10:52:24 GMT
Human beings cannot predict the future, predictions are only opinions. Al, if I cut my left leg off is it an opinion that I will be one-legged afterwards? Nice quote but not applicable in this context I suggest. You'd be a one-legged twat for cutting off your own leg
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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 28, 2019 10:59:20 GMT
Al, if I cut my left leg off is it an opinion that I will be one-legged afterwards? Nice quote but not applicable in this context I suggest. You'd be a one-legged twat for cutting off your own leg well that's your opinion
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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 28, 2019 11:00:40 GMT
Human beings cannot predict the future, predictions are only opinions. As has been said before, just look at the official predictions before the referendum. 850,000 job losses, property prices collapsing by 20%, Stock Market crash, Emergency Budget to fill a 20 billion pound 'Black Hole', GDP down by 8% in the first year, the UK going into Recession, and this was all going to happen straight after a Leave vote! The Bank of England, the CBI, the IMF, the EU, even the official government position via the Treasury forecast doom and gloom. This was the prediction of the experts, and yet, not a single one of those things happened, zilch! Why should we now listen to those same 'experts' regarding the effect of a No Deal exit? Those same 'experts' also forecast doom and gloom if the UK didn't adopt the Euro. They've been wrong twice on two massive issues. fair enough. Why dont you take the experts out of it and just listen to the leave politicians who are saying the same thing...
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Post by peterparker on May 28, 2019 11:12:10 GMT
Human beings cannot predict the future, predictions are only opinions. As has been said before, just look at the official predictions before the referendum. 850,000 job losses, property prices collapsing by 20%, Stock Market crash, Emergency Budget to fill a 20 billion pound 'Black Hole', GDP down by 8% in the first year, the UK going into Recession, and this was all going to happen straight after a Leave vote! The Bank of England, the CBI, the IMF, the EU, even the official government position via the Treasury forecast doom and gloom. This was the prediction of the experts, and yet, not a single one of those things happened, zilch! Why should we now listen to those same 'experts' regarding the effect of a No Deal exit? Those same 'experts' also forecast doom and gloom if the UK didn't adopt the Euro. They've been wrong twice on two massive issues. I refer to my previous post. As you keep reminding us Nobby, it isn't just about the Economy. It's how worse off we will be in losing the protection of social rights. The things that actually enrich lives
remmeber Farage's jibe at the EU on Maternity leave for instance
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Post by althepirate on May 28, 2019 11:24:04 GMT
Human beings cannot predict the future, predictions are only opinions. Al, if I cut my left leg off is it an opinion that I will be one-legged afterwards? Nice quote but not applicable in this context I suggest. Well if you then used a false leg you would be two legged again, so therefore your prediction would be wrong 😊
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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 28, 2019 11:26:37 GMT
Al, if I cut my left leg off is it an opinion that I will be one-legged afterwards? Nice quote but not applicable in this context I suggest. Well if you then used a false leg you would be two legged again, so therefore your prediction would be wrong 😊 A nice spin. To clear up any ambiguity what if it was my head I cut off. Would I be fair to predict I'd vote for a no deal Brexit?
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 11:33:39 GMT
As has been said before, just look at the official predictions before the referendum. 850,000 job losses, property prices collapsing by 20%, Stock Market crash, Emergency Budget to fill a 20 billion pound 'Black Hole', GDP down by 8% in the first year, the UK going into Recession, and this was all going to happen straight after a Leave vote! The Bank of England, the CBI, the IMF, the EU, even the official government position via the Treasury forecast doom and gloom. This was the prediction of the experts, and yet, not a single one of those things happened, zilch! Why should we now listen to those same 'experts' regarding the effect of a No Deal exit? Those same 'experts' also forecast doom and gloom if the UK didn't adopt the Euro. They've been wrong twice on two massive issues. fair enough. Why dont you take the experts out of it and just listen to the leave politicians who are saying the same thing... Ha, ha, ha, ha....listen to politicians? Stop it please, I'll pee myself !
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 11:34:30 GMT
As has been said before, just look at the official predictions before the referendum. 850,000 job losses, property prices collapsing by 20%, Stock Market crash, Emergency Budget to fill a 20 billion pound 'Black Hole', GDP down by 8% in the first year, the UK going into Recession, and this was all going to happen straight after a Leave vote! The Bank of England, the CBI, the IMF, the EU, even the official government position via the Treasury forecast doom and gloom. This was the prediction of the experts, and yet, not a single one of those things happened, zilch! Why should we now listen to those same 'experts' regarding the effect of a No Deal exit? Those same 'experts' also forecast doom and gloom if the UK didn't adopt the Euro. They've been wrong twice on two massive issues. I refer to my previous post. As you keep reminding us Nobby, it isn't just about the Economy. It's how worse off we will be in losing the protection of social rights. The things that actually enrich lives
remmeber Farage's jibe at the EU on Maternity leave for instance
What Social Rights will we be losing?
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