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Post by althepirate on May 28, 2019 11:45:29 GMT
Well if you then used a false leg you would be two legged again, so therefore your prediction would be wrong 😊 A nice spin. To clear up any ambiguity what if it was my head I cut off. Would I be fair to predict I'd vote for a no deal Brexit? I applaud you. If you had cut off your head and were still able to vote you must be an absolute genius 😂 respect 🤘
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Post by peterparker on May 28, 2019 12:00:35 GMT
I refer to my previous post. As you keep reminding us Nobby, it isn't just about the Economy. It's how worse off we will be in losing the protection of social rights. The things that actually enrich lives
remmeber Farage's jibe at the EU on Maternity leave for instance
What Social Rights will we be losing? well there is one big one I shouldn't even have to say it
A lot of things we won't 'lose' overnight, but will we keep up with. Wasn't Theresa May and one of her appeasement policies to the HoC was to debate workers rights as and when the EU adjust them?
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 12:09:18 GMT
What Social Rights will we be losing? well there is one big one I shouldn't even have to say it
A lot of things we won't 'lose' overnight, but will we keep up with. Wasn't Theresa May and one of her appeasement policies to the HoC was to debate workers rights as and when the EU adjust them?
Who is to say in the future that the UK will fall behind the EU on these matters? Is the UK some kind of Third World backwater? Historically, the UK has been a leader in the fields of Workers Rights, Human Rights, Employment Rights etc. Why do you assume that the EU is in some way ahead of the UK in this?
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 12:13:24 GMT
You are right in principle. But what you fail to do, or dont want to do, is recognise that the complete truth of our trading arrangements and the cost of cancelling those with the EU were not properly disclosed. In addition the false premise of the future world wide trading arrangements under no deal was not exposed. Nobody is arguing that the EU has not evolved into a political entity which was not envisaged in 1975. Nobody. I would also agree that this has led to a democratic deficit for all the member states of the EU. But importantly, do we impoverish ourselves to correct this? Especially when 90% of the population feel no effect of the democratic deficit, and a smaller group blame the EU for their economic circumstances when the actual blame lies in the policies emanating from Westminster. How do countries like Japan, South Korea, Canada etc etc manage to exist as they are not tied to the EU? We could also throw in India, Brazil, America, China etc etc! America, Russia, China, Brazil, India......none of them have a fixed trading deal with the EU. How do they survive? The point that is being missed by the MSM is the self-destruction of the EU. All across the EU we are seeing a dramatic rise in anti-EU parties. After the last election they hold one third of the seats in the EU Parliament. Because of the inherent structural flaws in the Euro (which I think you also agree exist) the EU MUST move towards greater financial and political integration. There is no other way for them to move. However, this will only fuel the anti-EU movement even further. I don't think the EU are flexible enough to sort that out. Interesting. It appears that the only major difference between us is on the economics. Economics based upon trading arrangements between countries, or groups of countries. To answer your question on the other countries, Canada is part of NAFTA, has an arrangement in place with the EU. Japan and South Korea have trade agreements with the EU. America bullies everyone based upon its economic strength, Russia is reliant on oil, Brazil is barely getting by and inherently corrupt, China is a fascist, corrupt State, India protects its merchant classes with restrictive trade policies. Not much to be confident about there is there, if we just walk away from the current treaty with the 27 EU countries and the 60 preferential trade agreements in place which we are currently beneficiaries of.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 12:17:26 GMT
well there is one big one I shouldn't even have to say it
A lot of things we won't 'lose' overnight, but will we keep up with. Wasn't Theresa May and one of her appeasement policies to the HoC was to debate workers rights as and when the EU adjust them?
Who is to say in the future that the UK will fall behind the EU on these matters? Is the UK some kind of Third World backwater? Historically, the UK has been a leader in the fields of Workers Rights, Human Rights, Employment Rights etc. Why do you assume that the EU is in some way ahead of the UK in this? They are not. The threat to our hard won rights is not from leaving the EU per se, its from removing the constraints on the economic libertarians like Farage and the ERG who regard and constraint on their version of the free market as communism. Friedrich Hayek refers. (The Road to Serfdom)
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 12:21:28 GMT
How do countries like Japan, South Korea, Canada etc etc manage to exist as they are not tied to the EU? We could also throw in India, Brazil, America, China etc etc! America, Russia, China, Brazil, India......none of them have a fixed trading deal with the EU. How do they survive? The point that is being missed by the MSM is the self-destruction of the EU. All across the EU we are seeing a dramatic rise in anti-EU parties. After the last election they hold one third of the seats in the EU Parliament. Because of the inherent structural flaws in the Euro (which I think you also agree exist) the EU MUST move towards greater financial and political integration. There is no other way for them to move. However, this will only fuel the anti-EU movement even further. I don't think the EU are flexible enough to sort that out. Interesting. It appears that the only major difference between us is on the economics. Economics based upon trading arrangements between countries, or groups of countries. To answer your question on the other countries, Canada is part of NAFTA, has an arrangement in place with the EU. Japan and South Korea have trade agreements with the EU. America bullies everyone based upon its economic strength, Russia is reliant on oil, Brazil is barely getting by and inherently corrupt, China is a fascist, corrupt State, India protects its merchant classes with restrictive trade policies. Not much to be confident about there is there, if we just walk away from the current treaty with the 27 EU countries and the 60 preferential trade agreements in place which we are currently beneficiaries of. "Not much to be confident about there is there, if we just walk away from the current treaty with the 27 EU countries and the 60 preferential trade agreements in place which we are currently beneficiaries of." - The point you are missing is that the UK was one of the Crown Jewels for the EU in negotiating these deals. As an example, look at the Canadian Deal. By far, Canada's biggest export market in the EU is with the UK. Once the UK leave the EU, then it is not that attractive to Canada anymore, and they would seek an FTA with the UK. With the UK Market on the list, the EU looked more attractive to others.
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Post by peterparker on May 28, 2019 12:32:12 GMT
LAbour just don't want to get elected do they.
Alastair Campbell expelled from Labour for voting Lib Dem
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Post by stuart1974 on May 28, 2019 12:33:03 GMT
Been busy banging my head against the wall, less painful than reading this 😁
It's half term so can't join in at the moment, but I did read this earlier. Thought it may be of interest. Lord Ashcroft has done polling since Thursday the summary is:
Two thirds (67 per cent) of Brexit Party voters said the best outcome from the Brexit process would be for the UK to leave the EU without a deal. A further 23 per cent wanted to leave with a deal different from the one negotiated by Theresa May. These proportions were almost identical among Brexit Party voters who had switched from the Conservatives. Among those who stayed with the Tories, 36 per cent backed May’s deal, while 17 per cent wanted a different deal and 14 per cent wanted no deal; 28 per cent said they wanted the UK to remain in the EU. Nine in ten of those who voted Lib Dem wanted to remain, while three in ten Labour voters want to leave – most of those (18 per cent) with a deal different from May’s.
So while Leavers and Remainers have gravitated to parties who are unambiguous about Brexit, those who have stuck with the main parties are also polarised: two thirds (67 per cent) of Tory Euro-voters want to leave the EU, while nearly two thirds (63 per cent) of Labour Euro-voters want to remain.
Overall, 89 per cent of Euro-election voters who voted Leave still want Brexit to happen – 55 per cent of them with no deal – and seven per cent now say they want to remain. Meanwhile, 81 per cent of Remainers who voted last week say they still want to remain, with 15 per cent now saying the best outcome would be to leave.
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Post by stuart1974 on May 28, 2019 12:41:15 GMT
Possible solution?
Let Farage renegotiate then put it (or WTO if no alternative agreed) to the public vote v remain.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 12:54:59 GMT
Possible solution? Let Farage renegotiate then put it (or WTO if no alternative agreed) to the public vote v remain. I don't think there can be a re-negotiation. As I posted earlier, it is one of the specific conditions in the 'Extension' document'. There just isn't time to do it anyway before Oct 30th. I think any incoming PM is hamstrung. They cannot ask for another extension, or they'd be out. They cannot push through May's WA, nobody wants it. They cannot revoke, or their party will cease to exist, and a Tory PM could not ask for a second referendum, or they and their party will be out. The ONLY option for the incoming PM is Leave with No Deal. If they can't produce that, then it has to be a General Election, where both the Tories and Labour will be wiped out.
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Post by althepirate on May 28, 2019 13:12:31 GMT
I cannot see where workers rights are better now supposedly being influenced by the EU. Zero hours, no extra pay for weekend/evening work, being sent home without pay or expenses if the business is quiet, eg restaurants.Unions smashed. For me people these days work in better quality conditions but less financially rewarding and a lot more insecure conditions than when I started work in the 60's. Nowadays people are backed up by wives working and the ability to borrow money which can both cause a lot more stress to family life.
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Post by stuart1974 on May 28, 2019 13:21:39 GMT
Possible solution? Let Farage renegotiate then put it (or WTO if no alternative agreed) to the public vote v remain. I don't think there can be a re-negotiation. As I posted earlier, it is one of the specific conditions in the 'Extension' document'. There just isn't time to do it anyway before Oct 30th. I think any incoming PM is hamstrung. They cannot ask for another extension, or they'd be out. They cannot push through May's WA, nobody wants it. They cannot revoke, or their party will cease to exist, and a Tory PM could not ask for a second referendum, or they and their party will be out. The ONLY option for the incoming PM is Leave with No Deal. If they can't produce that, then it has to be a General Election, where both the Tories and Labour will be wiped out. The WA is not up for reopening, never has been and anyone saying different either doesn't understand or is being disingenuous. Doesn't stop plenty saying otherwise, including many of the potential new PMs.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 13:29:46 GMT
I don't think there can be a re-negotiation. As I posted earlier, it is one of the specific conditions in the 'Extension' document'. There just isn't time to do it anyway before Oct 30th. I think any incoming PM is hamstrung. They cannot ask for another extension, or they'd be out. They cannot push through May's WA, nobody wants it. They cannot revoke, or their party will cease to exist, and a Tory PM could not ask for a second referendum, or they and their party will be out. The ONLY option for the incoming PM is Leave with No Deal. If they can't produce that, then it has to be a General Election, where both the Tories and Labour will be wiped out. The WA is not up for reopening, never has been and anyone saying different either doesn't understand or is being disingenuous. Doesn't stop plenty saying otherwise, including many of the potential new PMs. I know, so why do they still talk about it? I like the Esther McVey interview on Ridge (Sunday). Her opinion is that the new PM should just tell the EU we are leaving in Oct under WTO. Then use the time left to prepare as much as possible. IF the EU then want to come back to talk, then we will talk to them of course. It's in both of our interests, but so far nobody in the UK negotiating team has applied any pressure to the EU.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 14:17:44 GMT
LAbour just don't want to get elected do they. Alastair Campbell expelled from Labour for voting Lib Dem It is an interesting one. Didn't Corbyn vote against his own Labour Government something like 480 times?
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Post by peterparker on May 28, 2019 15:16:37 GMT
LAbour just don't want to get elected do they. Alastair Campbell expelled from Labour for voting Lib Dem It is an interesting one. Didn't Corbyn vote against his own Labour Government something like 480 times? Kate Hoey has literally been on stage with Farage and she is still in Labour
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 15:55:56 GMT
Interesting. It appears that the only major difference between us is on the economics. Economics based upon trading arrangements between countries, or groups of countries. To answer your question on the other countries, Canada is part of NAFTA, has an arrangement in place with the EU. Japan and South Korea have trade agreements with the EU. America bullies everyone based upon its economic strength, Russia is reliant on oil, Brazil is barely getting by and inherently corrupt, China is a fascist, corrupt State, India protects its merchant classes with restrictive trade policies. Not much to be confident about there is there, if we just walk away from the current treaty with the 27 EU countries and the 60 preferential trade agreements in place which we are currently beneficiaries of. "Not much to be confident about there is there, if we just walk away from the current treaty with the 27 EU countries and the 60 preferential trade agreements in place which we are currently beneficiaries of." - The point you are missing is that the UK was one of the Crown Jewels for the EU in negotiating these deals. As an example, look at the Canadian Deal. By far, Canada's biggest export market in the EU is with the UK. Once the UK leave the EU, then it is not that attractive to Canada anymore, and they would seek an FTA with the UK. With the UK Market on the list, the EU looked more attractive to others. That's a perhaps. But in the meantime we leave in October where if there is no deal 87 deals evaporate, if we leave with a deal, we have a diluted version with 27 countries and naff all with 60.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 15:59:22 GMT
I cannot see where workers rights are better now supposedly being influenced by the EU. Zero hours, no extra pay for weekend/evening work, being sent home without pay or expenses if the business is quiet, eg restaurants.Unions smashed. For me people these days work in better quality conditions but less financially rewarding and a lot more insecure conditions than when I started work in the 60's. Nowadays people are backed up by wives working and the ability to borrow money which can both cause a lot more stress to family life. None of which is the result of EU regulation, but specific policy coming out of Westminster.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 16:03:38 GMT
It is an interesting one. Didn't Corbyn vote against his own Labour Government something like 480 times? Kate Hoey has literally been on stage with Farage and she is still in Labour Maybe they kicked him out because he's a twat?
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 16:05:49 GMT
"Not much to be confident about there is there, if we just walk away from the current treaty with the 27 EU countries and the 60 preferential trade agreements in place which we are currently beneficiaries of." - The point you are missing is that the UK was one of the Crown Jewels for the EU in negotiating these deals. As an example, look at the Canadian Deal. By far, Canada's biggest export market in the EU is with the UK. Once the UK leave the EU, then it is not that attractive to Canada anymore, and they would seek an FTA with the UK. With the UK Market on the list, the EU looked more attractive to others. That's a perhaps. But in the meantime we leave in October where if there is no deal 87 deals evaporate, if we leave with a deal, we have a diluted version with 27 countries and naff all with 60. The other countries will be just as keen to strike a trade deal. It's not just UK exports, but also their exports that will be affected. It really shouldn't be a problem.
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Post by peterparker on May 28, 2019 16:10:39 GMT
That's a perhaps. But in the meantime we leave in October where if there is no deal 87 deals evaporate, if we leave with a deal, we have a diluted version with 27 countries and naff all with 60. The other countries will be just as keen to strike a trade deal. It's not just UK exports, but also their exports that will be affected. It really shouldn't be a problem. Even in that scenario, we are still burning 60 deals pointlessly and will have to renegotiate new deals most likely from a weaker position
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