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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 10, 2020 14:07:52 GMT
Quick question, who said this?
"Most people when they talk of sovereignty mean the effective control over the destiny of the nation by Parliament. But today we have entered into many Treaties and military alliances which limit our freedom of individual action. More and more we are becoming dependent for our future, on action in concert with other nations. To enter into commercial obligations and treaties is an exercise of sovereignty, not a derogation from it.
Under treaties we accept obligations which we ourselves help to formulate. Sovereignty and independence are not ends in themselves. It is no good being independent in isolation if it involves running down our economy and watching other nations outstrip us in both trade and influence"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 15:18:09 GMT
I was optimistic that pragmatism might prevail but it appears not.
Now we are likely to witness the affect.
No real point in debating why people voted for this act of economic self harm for no societal gain, because it defies any logic at all.
So here we have it, we will all pay the price for the stupidity of a narrow majority.
As bad, we will have to endure years of the incompetence of the current government because leave voters put them in power be as well.
It would be quite funny if the Monty Python Team had written this script, but sadly it's real.
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Post by yattongas on Dec 10, 2020 15:34:27 GMT
maybe not worse, but it's not exactly Boris riding in to save the day. As Stuart says, where is the compromise going to come from, from either side, if there is to be one We are a few weeks away and it all boils down essentially to the same arguments from years ago and what people warned about. The integrity of the single market, whatever Vote Leave, Gove, Davis, IDS etc, tried to sell as being easy, better etc, etc Genuine question do you think folk believed it would be an easy deal,I always thought that it would very difficult as both sides red lines are diametrically opposed to any sort of compromise. Yes , because they were told it would be the easiest deal in history. They bought the lies written on the side of a bus along with a multitude of falsehoods/ outright lies. |
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Post by yattongas on Dec 10, 2020 15:38:40 GMT
Quick question, who said this? "Most people when they talk of sovereignty mean the effective control over the destiny of the nation by Parliament. But today we have entered into many Treaties and military alliances which limit our freedom of individual action. More and more we are becoming dependent for our future, on action in concert with other nations. To enter into commercial obligations and treaties is an exercise of sovereignty, not a derogation from it. Under treaties we accept obligations which we ourselves help to formulate. Sovereignty and independence are not ends in themselves. It is no good being independent in isolation if it involves running down our economy and watching other nations outstrip us in both trade and influence" The milk snatcher ? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 10, 2020 16:00:43 GMT
Quick question, who said this? "Most people when they talk of sovereignty mean the effective control over the destiny of the nation by Parliament. But today we have entered into many Treaties and military alliances which limit our freedom of individual action. More and more we are becoming dependent for our future, on action in concert with other nations. To enter into commercial obligations and treaties is an exercise of sovereignty, not a derogation from it. Under treaties we accept obligations which we ourselves help to formulate. Sovereignty and independence are not ends in themselves. It is no good being independent in isolation if it involves running down our economy and watching other nations outstrip us in both trade and influence" The milk snatcher ? Give that man a gold top. The midwife of the Single Market herself. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 10, 2020 16:04:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 17:21:01 GMT
I did laugh at that. I guess that might mean the end of airbus manufacturing in the UK. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 10, 2020 18:05:39 GMT
I did laugh at that. I guess that might mean the end of airbus manufacturing in the UK. We go from no tariffs on Airbus and tariffs on Boeing protecting jobs, to the opposite overnight. I wonder what my Brexit supporting MP, Jack Lopresti, thinks about that. He loves a photo opportunity with Airbus. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 18:53:30 GMT
I did laugh at that. I guess that might mean the end of airbus manufacturing in the UK. We go from no tariffs on Airbus and tariffs on Boeing protecting jobs, to the opposite overnight. I wonder what my Brexit supporting MP, Jack Lopresti, thinks about that. He loves a photo opportunity with Airbus. See the Canadian roll over treaty is held up as well |
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Post by trevorgas on Dec 11, 2020 9:17:02 GMT
I did laugh at that. I guess that might mean the end of airbus manufacturing in the UK. Unless there is going to be a "Paul on the road to Damascus" moment we are out with no deal. Stand by for a bumpy ride in the first half of next year. Will be interesting to see if Tariffs are introduced immediately and how quickly Border checks will commence. As always I expect Business to adjust over time to the Import/Export delays as they will make the appropriate allowances in their process to maintain the flow of goods. The issue will be the scale of tariffs and whether that makes goods prohibitive on both sides of the channel. There will be pain for UK and the EU and I expect that to force them back to the negotiating table early next year. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 11, 2020 9:41:33 GMT
I did laugh at that. I guess that might mean the end of airbus manufacturing in the UK. Unless there is going to be a "Paul on the road to Damascus" moment we are out with no deal. Stand by for a bumpy ride in the first half of next year. Will be interesting to see if Tariffs are introduced immediately and how quickly Border checks will commence. As always I expect Business to adjust over time to the Import/Export delays as they will make the appropriate allowances in their process to maintain the flow of goods. The issue will be the scale of tariffs and whether that makes goods prohibitive on both sides of the channel. There will be pain for UK and the EU and I expect that to force them back to the negotiating table early next year. At least 6 months, depending on how bad and whether we can mitigate the issues. It may even force the parties to think again, although that is more likely to be weighted against us. Tariffs have to be implemented from day one don't they? In terms of costs, (figures from the Washington Post) "the EU’s average most-favored nation tariff rates are 11.1% for agricultural goods, 15.7% for animal products and 35.4% for dairy. British carmakers would face a 10% tariff on all auto exports to the EU. Those levies could exceed 5.7 billion euros ($6.3 billion) per year and increase the average price of a British car sold in the EU by 3,000 euros." Seafood and textiles are 12%. Plus the OBR predicts inflation and unemployment will rise. That's just goods, services seem to have been overlooked. We could reduce tariffs unilaterally but that applies to all countries which would undermine our domestic companies and mean we have very little to offer others in future trade deals. Interesting times, now wasn't there a Chinese proverb about that?? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2020 9:44:38 GMT
I did laugh at that. I guess that might mean the end of airbus manufacturing in the UK. Unless there is going to be a "Paul on the road to Damascus" moment we are out with no deal. Stand by for a bumpy ride in the first half of next year. Will be interesting to see if Tariffs are introduced immediately and how quickly Border checks will commence. As always I expect Business to adjust over time to the Import/Export delays as they will make the appropriate allowances in their process to maintain the flow of goods. The issue will be the scale of tariffs and whether that makes goods prohibitive on both sides of the channel. There will be pain for UK and the EU and I expect that to force them back to the negotiating table early next year. In the meantime Clive the poorest Will be hit the hardest. Businesses will adjust, either by relocating outside of the UK if they are multinational in nature, by taking on board the increase costs due to tariffs and incremental logistical costs then passing on those costs to the end consumer. Which will suppress demand leading to more unemployment. Leading to the poorest being hit even harder. In the meantime the Government has maxed out it's credit card dealing with the Covid impact and will be unable to apply the proper Keynesian response. (Not without great risk) So yeah, let's leave with no deal and pour more misery on the poorest. Anybody else see how much this lot have cut health spending per head in the north east? Or the Joseph Rowntree Report on destitution in the UK? www.jrf.org.uk/report/destitution-uk-2020After ten years of this lot and now they impose more poverty on the back of their ideology. |
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Post by peterparker on Dec 11, 2020 9:44:47 GMT
Unless there is going to be a "Paul on the road to Damascus" moment we are out with no deal. Stand by for a bumpy ride in the first half of next year. Will be interesting to see if Tariffs are introduced immediately and how quickly Border checks will commence. As always I expect Business to adjust over time to the Import/Export delays as they will make the appropriate allowances in their process to maintain the flow of goods. The issue will be the scale of tariffs and whether that makes goods prohibitive on both sides of the channel. There will be pain for UK and the EU and I expect that to force them back to the negotiating table early next year. At least 6 months, depending on how bad and whether we can mitigate the issues. It may even force the parties to think again, although that is more likely to be weighted against us. Tariffs have to be implemented from day one don't they? In terms of costs, (figures from the Washington Post) "the EU’s average most-favored nation tariff rates are 11.1% for agricultural goods, 15.7% for animal products and 35.4% for dairy. British carmakers would face a 10% tariff on all auto exports to the EU. Those levies could exceed 5.7 billion euros ($6.3 billion) per year and increase the average price of a British car sold in the EU by 3,000 euros." Seafood and textiles are 12%. Plus the OBR predicts inflation and unemployment will rise. That's just goods, services seem to have been overlooked. We could reduce tariffs unilaterally but that applies to all countries which would undermine our domestic companies and mean we have very little to offer others in future trade deals. Interesting times, now wasn't there a Chinese proverb about that?? Actually that raise a goo point. What is our tariff schedule. Is it the one they published months ago? |
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Post by trevorgas on Dec 11, 2020 10:14:53 GMT
Unless there is going to be a "Paul on the road to Damascus" moment we are out with no deal.[b8r]Stand by for a bumpy ride in the first half of next year. Will be interesting to see if Tariffs are introduced immediately and how quickly Border checks will commence. As always I expect Business to adjust over time to the Import/Export delays as they will make the appropriate allowances in their process to maintain the flow of goods. The issue will be the scale of tariffs and whether that makes goods prohibitive on both sides of the channel. There will be pain for UK and the EU and I expect that to force them back to the negotiating table early next year. At least 6 months, depending on how bad and whether we can mitigate the issues. It may even force the parties to think again, although that is more likely to be weighted against us. Tariffs have to be implemented from day one don't they? In terms of costs, (figures from the Washington Post) "the EU’s average most-favored nation tariff rates are 11.1% for agricultural goods, 15.7% for animal products and 35.4% for dairy. British carmakers would face a 10% tariff on all auto exports to the EU. Those levies could exceed 5.7 billion euros ($6.3 billion) per year and increase the average price of a British car sold in the EU by 3,000 euros." Seafood and textiles are 12%. Plus the OBR predicts inflation and unemployment will rise. That's just goods, services seem to have been overlooked. We could reduce tariffs unilaterally but that applies to all countries which would undermine our domestic companies and mean we have very little to offer others in future trade deals. Interesting times, now wasn't there a Chinese proverb about that?? Aye definitely interesting times!!. I assume we will impose reciprocal rates on EU goods etc,mutual flagellation! ! Agree tariffs are due on day 1 will be interesting to see if that happens or whether there will be a fudged transition period. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 11, 2020 10:17:19 GMT
At least 6 months, depending on how bad and whether we can mitigate the issues. It may even force the parties to think again, although that is more likely to be weighted against us. Tariffs have to be implemented from day one don't they? In terms of costs, (figures from the Washington Post) "the EU’s average most-favored nation tariff rates are 11.1% for agricultural goods, 15.7% for animal products and 35.4% for dairy. British carmakers would face a 10% tariff on all auto exports to the EU. Those levies could exceed 5.7 billion euros ($6.3 billion) per year and increase the average price of a British car sold in the EU by 3,000 euros." Seafood and textiles are 12%. Plus the OBR predicts inflation and unemployment will rise. That's just goods, services seem to have been overlooked. We could reduce tariffs unilaterally but that applies to all countries which would undermine our domestic companies and mean we have very little to offer others in future trade deals. Interesting times, now wasn't there a Chinese proverb about that?? Actually that raise a goo point. What is our tariff schedule. Is it the one they published months ago? I believe so, something like 10% on cars (don't tell Bamber/Jungtheforenan) and some foodstuffs. The plan was going to have 60% of products tariff free. |
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Post by trevorgas on Dec 11, 2020 10:17:47 GMT
Unless there is going to be a "Paul on the road to Damascus" moment we are out with no deal. Stand by for a bumpy ride in the first half of next year. Will be interesting to see if Tariffs are introduced immediately and how quickly Border checks will commence. As always I expect Business to adjust over time to the Import/Export delays as they will make the appropriate allowances in their process to maintain the flow of goods. The issue will be the scale of tariffs and whether that makes goods prohibitive on both sides of the channel. There will be pain for UK and the EU and I expect that to force them back to the negotiating table early next year. In the meantime Clive the poorest Will be hit the hardest. Businesses will adjust, either by relocating outside of the UK if they are multinational in nature, by taking on board the increase costs due to tariffs and incremental logistical costs then passing on those costs to the end consumer. Which will suppress demand leading to more unemployment. Leading to the poorest being hit even harder. In the meantime the Government has maxed out it's credit card dealing with the Covid impact and will be unable to apply the proper Keynesian response. (Not without great risk) So yeah, let's leave with no deal and pour more misery on the poorest. Anybody else see how much this lot have cut health spending per head in the north east? Or the Joseph Rowntree Report on destitution in the UK? www.jrf.org.uk/report/destitution-uk-2020After ten years of this lot and now they impose more poverty on the back of their ideology. Do you think they will go for a low tax economy on the EU doorstep to attract inward investment to stimulate the economy . It's one option but not without risks. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2020 10:36:19 GMT
In the meantime Clive the poorest Will be hit the hardest. Businesses will adjust, either by relocating outside of the UK if they are multinational in nature, by taking on board the increase costs due to tariffs and incremental logistical costs then passing on those costs to the end consumer. Which will suppress demand leading to more unemployment. Leading to the poorest being hit even harder. In the meantime the Government has maxed out it's credit card dealing with the Covid impact and will be unable to apply the proper Keynesian response. (Not without great risk) So yeah, let's leave with no deal and pour more misery on the poorest. Anybody else see how much this lot have cut health spending per head in the north east? Or the Joseph Rowntree Report on destitution in the UK? www.jrf.org.uk/report/destitution-uk-2020After ten years of this lot and now they impose more poverty on the back of their ideology. Do you think they will go for a low tax economy on the EU doorstep to attract inward investment to stimulate the economy . It's one option but not without risks. I do. I believe they will remove employment and environmental rules (constraints) and go for the survival of the fittest. It's what Thatcher preached, the gospel according to Friedrich Hayek. The Road to Serfdom anyone? |
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Post by trevorgas on Dec 11, 2020 11:05:46 GMT
Do you think they will go for a low tax economy on the EU doorstep to attract inward investment to stimulate the economy . It's one option but not without risks. I do. I believe they will remove employment and environmental rules (constraints) and go for the survival of the fittest. It's what Thatcher preached, the gospel according to Friedrich Hayek. The Road to Serfdom anyone? Yep me to,I get what your saying Les although I'm not at your level of concern over employment /environmental rules as I do actually believe that we will drive hard for a low carbon economy which will deliver jobs . Time will tell and I guess for folk like us this will be living history,whilst future generations have greater uncertainty. However,I think that's inevitable as we are quickly destroying the planet and so change has to be considerable and rapid so whilst what we do on our little Island is important to us the big changes have to be beyond our shores. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 11, 2020 11:08:20 GMT
Help me here, is the language used different to what Boris is saying? Misinterpretation or possible fudge?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2020 11:11:50 GMT
Help me here, is the language used different to what Boris is saying? Misinterpretation or possible fudge? Sounds like they are being sensibly flexible and exposing Johnson and his rhetoric |
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