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Post by yattongas on Dec 20, 2020 10:34:37 GMT
For decades, the UK’s agricultural industry has relied on migrant labour. Each year, an estimated 80,000 workers, primarily from Eastern Europe, come to harvest Britain’s fruit and veg. But this year, due to Covid-19 travel restrictions and ongoing uncertainties regarding Brexit, many would-be fruit pickers have been unable to make the trip. This has left a gaping hole in the agricultural workforce—one which British workers are expected to fill. On the 19th May, Environment Secretary George Eustice launched the official “Pick for Britain” campaign, encouraging the population to take up work on farms across the country. If it fails, the media’s bleak premonitions of “a disastrous situation” in which “mountains of food are left to rot” could find themselves realised. Signalling an intensification of the recruitment drive, last week the government wheeled out Prince Charles. Donning his humblest, most rumpled coat, in a video message he urged viewers to sign up. While acknowledging that the work would be “unglamorous and at times challenging,” Charles unashamedly evoked notions of national duty and that fabled “blitz spirit.” I’ve been working on a strawberry farm since mid-April. Like others, I wasn’t covered by the government’s furlough scheme and wanted to help the country in a time of crisis. But as I watched Charles’s broadcast from a blustery field, the gale pummelling at my caravan’s chipboard walls, I couldn’t help but feel that I knew something I shouldn’t. It was as if I’d taken a glance behind the curtain and, to my horror, found the machine. Before I continue, I must stress that it’s not all bad. In this isolated corner of the English countryside you’ll find a veritable mosaic of nationalities and cultures. The workforce of about 90 includes Romanians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Moldovans and English. All are housed together on the farm’s caravan site and get on extremely well. The all-night Romanian discos, beers in the sun and games of football have been welcome respite from the monotony of lockdown. The English contingent are equally intriguing. We all arrived within the last month, inspired by the government’s calls to action. To commit to working on a farm with complete strangers for six months you have to be a certain kind of person—gregarious, adventurous and—whisper it—a bit odd. We’re a diverse bunch and this has allowed for the ludicrous brand of social alchemy normally reserved for reality television. Where else would you hear a window cleaner from Croydon debate the morality of bin-diving with a 40-year-old hippie and didgeridoo enthusiast? However, 5am starts and 10-hour shifts leave little time for socialising. Our weeks are dominated by work. And it’s tough. Really tough. Being bent over picking fruit for most of the day puts huge strain on your body. Perhaps this wouldn’t be a problem if we were adequately paid and properly housed. In reality, neither is true. The UK boasts the cheapest food in western Europe. My experience has made clear that this is only made possible through the neglect of employee welfare. For example, the notion that you can make good money through “piece work,” as has been asserted by both MPs and industry experts, is a fallacy. Unless you have significant prior experience, making anything above the minimum wage is highly unrealistic. After funds are deducted for rent and deposits, our salaries come to about £7 per hour. Furthermore, management’s conduct towards employees has been, at times, appalling. I’ve seen my colleagues berated, degraded and branded “stupid” by their superiors. The facilities are equally disappointing. Despite being in the throes of a deadly pandemic, the farm owner refuses to supply the bathrooms with hand soap. To save on bills, caravans aren’t hooked up to the mains. Consequently, they have no running water and can get perilously cold at night. We were assured that the caravans would be cleaned before our arrival. Instead, I found a cabin seething with mould and littered with mouse droppings. Mice make dreadful housemates. They are reclusive, dirty, and scarper whenever you suggest they put some money towards bills. Unfortunately, these issues are common. According to a 2018 report by the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority (GLAA), labour exploitation is on the rise in the UK, and the agricultural industry is one of the worst offenders. As part of a project conducted by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA), researchers identified the most prevalent forms of labour exploitation. These included workers being paid less than promised, fees flowing back to the employer through rent, and reliance on an employer for everything, including food, creating a “dangerous power imbalance.” I’ve witnessed all this and more during my time here. Whether you see it as symptomatic of a poor English work ethic, or righteous indignation at unjust treatment, the fact is that senior management and the English workers have frequently clashed. Sources of contention have been extremely varied. Staff have taken issue with misogynistic and abusive language, the state of local facilities, and being frequently underpaid. At one point, there were more than 30 Brits here. But after just four weeks, with many unwilling to work under grim conditions for such low pay, we’re now down to five. In the short term, the spectre of fresh fruit and vegetable shortages could well become reality. If growers fail to attract and retain vital British workers, as has been the case here, farms will lack the manpower to harvest their crops. Long-term prospects are equally stark. Currently, the vast majority of imported labour arrives in the UK under EU Freedom of Movement laws. Brexit looks set to bring an end to this. Increased reliance on domestic labour seems inevitable. But if farms hope to weather Covid-19 by employing a substantial British workforce, they’ll need to change—starting with better pay, improved facilities and fairer treatment of staff. If farms prove too obdurate to adapt, Prince Charles may have to go without his strawberries this summer. I’m Long winded? Copy & paste my friend 😃
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Post by francegas on Dec 20, 2020 10:39:39 GMT
So everyone who was furloughed or on benefits lives in city centres and has no form of transport. Always an excuse not to work from the left. I’m on the left and I’ve worked all my life . Most of the posters on here who are left leaning work I’d guess . So are you saying to be on benefits you have to be a Labour voter or are you just wildly chucking out right wing tropes again to suit your nonsense argument? Those old red wall voters who’ve now switched to Tory are obviously the problem . Lazy Tory voting benefit scrounging lazy bastards who can’t get out of bed to pick fruit & veg . I get you 👍 No Yatton that's not what I'm saying. I don't care whether someone votes labour or Conservative, if they choose not to work they should never be financially better off on benefits than they would be if they went out to work. Surely you would agree with that. Labour made the country a benefit dependent state, Cameron tried to address this by capping benefits at £26k much to the disgust of labour, people claiming benefits (be they left or right) etc. You say you have worked all your life, good for you , however, would you feel somewhat aggrieved knowing your neighbour didn't work,and had no intention of working because he received more in benefits than perhaps you earned going out to work to provide for you and your family.
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Post by yattongas on Dec 20, 2020 10:47:38 GMT
I’m on the left and I’ve worked all my life . Most of the posters on here who are left leaning work I’d guess . So are you saying to be on benefits you have to be a Labour voter or are you just wildly chucking out right wing tropes again to suit your nonsense argument? Those old red wall voters who’ve now switched to Tory are obviously the problem . Lazy Tory voting benefit scrounging lazy bastards who can’t get out of bed to pick fruit & veg . I get you 👍 No Yatton that's not what I'm saying. I don't care whether someone votes labour or Conservative, if they choose not to work they should never be financially better off on benefits than they would be if they went out to work. Surely you would agree with that. Labour made the country a benefit dependent state, Cameron tried to address this by capping benefits at £26k much to the disgust of labour, people claiming benefits (be they left or right) etc. You say you have worked all your life, good for you , however, would you feel somewhat aggrieved knowing your neighbour didn't work,and had no intention of working because he received more in benefits than perhaps you earned going out to work to provide for you and your family. “if the labour supporting benefit scrounging fu*kers can't be arsed to help...” How important is sick pay, unemployment benefits or annual leave entitlements to you? Social benefits for people in the workplace in Europe are generally far more generous than in the U.S. Yet even within Europe, benefits vary dramatically. For the very first time, Glassdoor has pulled together social benefits data from 14 key European neighbouring economies, to establish which countries in Europe offer what provisions for people and which are most generous. It is bad news for Britain, though. Unfortunately, the UK is in the bottom four overall taking into account factors such as maternity and paternity leave, general parental leave, paid holiday allowance, paid sick leave and unemployment benefits. Only the Swiss, the Irish and the Americans have a more frugal government policy. The report, conducted in cooperation with Llewellyn Consulting titled “Which Countries in Europe Offer Fairest Paid Leave and Unemployment Benefits”, reveal that the countries offering the most generous workplace and welfare benefits overall are Denmark, France and Spain, with Denmark and Belgium in particular offering the best unemployment benefits (pay and eligibility period).Print‘Best’ Country To Be Out Of Work It’s never good to be out of work, but Denmark is the ‘best’ place in Europe to be unemployed with residents receiving 90 percent of previous earnings granted for up to 104 weeks. The UK, by contrast, offers a flat rate of €66 or €84 per week, for up to 26 weeks. Ireland too is one of the least generous, providing a flat-rate of €188 per week for between 22 and 33 weeks, depending on contributions. As a benchmark, the U.S. offers between 40 percent and 50 percent of earnings for up to 2 6 weeks, depending on the individual state. Sick Pay Won’t Go Far In Britain UK is again at the bottom of this list in terms of sick pay – the allowance in the UK is 28 weeks, paid at a flat rate of around £88 per week. Paid sick leave is most generous in the Netherlands, where workers can be absent for up to 104 weeks and receive 70 percent of their salary for the whole period!
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Post by oldgas on Dec 20, 2020 11:38:20 GMT
No Yatton that's not what I'm saying. I don't care whether someone votes labour or Conservative, if they choose not to work they should never be financially better off on benefits than they would be if they went out to work. Surely you would agree with that. Labour made the country a benefit dependent state, Cameron tried to address this by capping benefits at £26k much to the disgust of labour, people claiming benefits (be they left or right) etc. You say you have worked all your life, good for you , however, would you feel somewhat aggrieved knowing your neighbour didn't work,and had no intention of working because he received more in benefits than perhaps you earned going out to work to provide for you and your family. “if the labour supporting benefit scrounging fu*kers can't be arsed to help...” How important is sick pay, unemployment benefits or annual leave entitlements to you? Social benefits for people in the workplace in Europe are generally far more generous than in the U.S. Yet even within Europe, benefits vary dramatically. For the very first time, Glassdoor has pulled together social benefits data from 14 key European neighbouring economies, to establish which countries in Europe offer what provisions for people and which are most generous. It is bad news for Britain, though. Unfortunately, the UK is in the bottom four overall taking into account factors such as maternity and paternity leave, general parental leave, paid holiday allowance, paid sick leave and unemployment benefits. Only the Swiss, the Irish and the Americans have a more frugal government policy. The report, conducted in cooperation with Llewellyn Consulting titled “Which Countries in Europe Offer Fairest Paid Leave and Unemployment Benefits”, reveal that the countries offering the most generous workplace and welfare benefits overall are Denmark, France and Spain, with Denmark and Belgium in particular offering the best unemployment benefits (pay and eligibility period).Print‘Best’ Country To Be Out Of Work It’s never good to be out of work, but Denmark is the ‘best’ place in Europe to be unemployed with residents receiving 90 percent of previous earnings granted for up to 104 weeks. The UK, by contrast, offers a flat rate of €66 or €84 per week, for up to 26 weeks. Ireland too is one of the least generous, providing a flat-rate of €188 per week for between 22 and 33 weeks, depending on contributions. As a benchmark, the U.S. offers between 40 percent and 50 percent of earnings for up to 2 6 weeks, depending on the individual state. Sick Pay Won’t Go Far In Britain UK is again at the bottom of this list in terms of sick pay – the allowance in the UK is 28 weeks, paid at a flat rate of around £88 per week. Paid sick leave is most generous in the Netherlands, where workers can be absent for up to 104 weeks and receive 70 percent of their salary for the whole period! Not what Francegas was saying though, is it? Pehaps if there weren’t so many people happy to sit at home and be idle, claiming every benefit under the sun, there’d be a bit more to go towards sick pay etc. You didn’t really answer the question either. Are you happy slogging through life, working full time, happy to be supporting your able-bodied neighbour who chooses to sit on his arse all day long?
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Post by oldgas on Dec 20, 2020 11:40:36 GMT
It’s still a long-winded defence of those people in this country who could and do this work in return for their benefits. But chose not to. Written by hand, my friend 😏
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Post by yattongas on Dec 20, 2020 11:57:54 GMT
“if the labour supporting benefit scrounging fu*kers can't be arsed to help...” How important is sick pay, unemployment benefits or annual leave entitlements to you? Social benefits for people in the workplace in Europe are generally far more generous than in the U.S. Yet even within Europe, benefits vary dramatically. For the very first time, Glassdoor has pulled together social benefits data from 14 key European neighbouring economies, to establish which countries in Europe offer what provisions for people and which are most generous. It is bad news for Britain, though. Unfortunately, the UK is in the bottom four overall taking into account factors such as maternity and paternity leave, general parental leave, paid holiday allowance, paid sick leave and unemployment benefits. Only the Swiss, the Irish and the Americans have a more frugal government policy. The report, conducted in cooperation with Llewellyn Consulting titled “Which Countries in Europe Offer Fairest Paid Leave and Unemployment Benefits”, reveal that the countries offering the most generous workplace and welfare benefits overall are Denmark, France and Spain, with Denmark and Belgium in particular offering the best unemployment benefits (pay and eligibility period).Print‘Best’ Country To Be Out Of Work It’s never good to be out of work, but Denmark is the ‘best’ place in Europe to be unemployed with residents receiving 90 percent of previous earnings granted for up to 104 weeks. The UK, by contrast, offers a flat rate of €66 or €84 per week, for up to 26 weeks. Ireland too is one of the least generous, providing a flat-rate of €188 per week for between 22 and 33 weeks, depending on contributions. As a benchmark, the U.S. offers between 40 percent and 50 percent of earnings for up to 2 6 weeks, depending on the individual state. Sick Pay Won’t Go Far In Britain UK is again at the bottom of this list in terms of sick pay – the allowance in the UK is 28 weeks, paid at a flat rate of around £88 per week. Paid sick leave is most generous in the Netherlands, where workers can be absent for up to 104 weeks and receive 70 percent of their salary for the whole period! Not what Francegas was saying though, is it? Pehaps if there weren’t so many people happy to sit at home and be idle, claiming every benefit under the sun, there’d be a bit more to go towards sick pay etc. You didn’t really answer the question either. Are you happy slogging through life, working full time, happy to be supporting your able-bodied neighbour who chooses to sit on his arse all day long? If someone falls on hard times , loses their job and needs benefits yes I’m happy to pay . If someone is able bodied and capable of working then no I wouldn’t be too happy . The fact that so few people fall into this category is the point .
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Post by oldgas on Dec 20, 2020 12:17:01 GMT
Not what Francegas was saying though, is it? Pehaps if there weren’t so many people happy to sit at home and be idle, claiming every benefit under the sun, there’d be a bit more to go towards sick pay etc. You didn’t really answer the question either. Are you happy slogging through life, working full time, happy to be supporting your able-bodied neighbour who chooses to sit on his arse all day long? If someone falls on hard times , loses their job and needs benefits yes I’m happy to pay . If someone is able bodied and capable of working then no I wouldn’t be too happy . The fact that so few people fall into this category is the point . I quite agree with your first point. It is the absolute duty of a civilised society to look after those who are incapacitated or have fallen on hard times and need a helping hand to get back on their feet. I cannot agree with your second point. I have witnessed at first hand and for 44 years I worked amongst swathes of Bristol’s population who are perfectly able-bodied but choose to live on the dole. These are usually the people who have children living in ‘poverty’ because they spend their benefits on fags, booze, sky TV takeaway food etc etc. Curiously enough, the people in genuine need usually look after their kids much better, and tend to have fewer offspring, and with the same partner. Written by hand from the voice of experience.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2020 12:30:43 GMT
No I'm not saying that Gassy. People who were furloughed on 80% of wages were quite entitled to assist with fruit/veg picking without it affecting their furlough income or employment....How many took it up to help.? People who were on benefits could have helped without it affecting their benefit income....How many took it up to help? How many people furloughed or on benefits decided their income was sufficient and couldn't be arsed to help out. Obviously too many otherwise we wouldn't have had to charter plane loads of pickers from eastern Europe during a pandemic. Looking at this in a bit more detail there are all sorts of factors as to why we cannot as a Country generate enough folk to do this work and here's my take on it. . Wages are relative low mostly at Minimum wage level or slightly above and this does not incentivise our folk to do it. .it is attractive to Overseas workers as the pay in relation to their cost of living is better and they can return a fair % to their Country of residence where it has bethere buying power. . The seasonal nature does not appeal to our folk . .it is very hard back breaking work in difficult conditions and that does not appeal either. . We as a Country have to accept that in relative terms food is much cheaper now than it was 30 years ago and unless we are willing to pay more then wages for this type of work will remain low . Just my take on it feel free to "pick" it apart!! Most of that is true Clive But I do despair at this debate, the terrible insults laid at people's door who find themselves having to resort to claiming benefits, as if they actually want to. But all of that ignores the real issues within our economy. At its very core are two main issues. 1) Income distribution: Surely it is blindingly obvious that our current economic model does not work. We have evolved into a system where so much of our national income is under the ownership of far to few of the citizens of this country. This is not caused particularly by the policies of the current regime, they just do not do anything about it. The last Labour regime did try, to their credit, by introducing working tax credits. The problem was that it was half assed and by trying to compromise made it so complicated it acted as a disincentive to work more than 16 hours. 2) The cost of maintaining a home. Either rental or outright ownership. Our housing market is broken, its dysfunctional nature being a hard brake on social mobility. Both of these issues re-enforce what is in fact economic apartheid. This itself then leads to poorer health outcomes, poorer educational outcomes and then the issue becomes systemic, growing by generation with time. Which is where we are today. Chucking rotten tomatoes at each other will not resolve the issue, equally neither will sticking collective heads in sand and using ignorant (my definition) depictions of people on benefits, nor will being critical without offering solutions.
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Post by oldgas on Dec 20, 2020 12:47:35 GMT
Looking at this in a bit more detail there are all sorts of factors as to why we cannot as a Country generate enough folk to do this work and here's my take on it. . Wages are relative low mostly at Minimum wage level or slightly above and this does not incentivise our folk to do it. .it is attractive to Overseas workers as the pay in relation to their cost of living is better and they can return a fair % to their Country of residence where it has bethere buying power. . The seasonal nature does not appeal to our folk . .it is very hard back breaking work in difficult conditions and that does not appeal either. . We as a Country have to accept that in relative terms food is much cheaper now than it was 30 years ago and unless we are willing to pay more then wages for this type of work will remain low . Just my take on it feel free to "pick" it apart!! Most of that is true Clive But I do despair at this debate, the terrible insults laid at people's door who find themselves having to resort to claiming benefits, as if they actually want to. But all of that ignores the real issues within our economy. At its very core are two main issues. 1) Income distribution: Surely it is blindingly obvious that our current economic model does not work. We have evolved into a system where so much of our national income is under the ownership of far to few of the citizens of this country. This is not caused particularly by the policies of the current regime, they just do not do anything about it. The last Labour regime did try, to their credit, by introducing working tax credits. The problem was that it was half assed and by trying to compromise made it so complicated it acted as a disincentive to work more than 16 hours. 2) The cost of maintaining a home. Either rental or outright ownership. Our housing market is broken, its dysfunctional nature being a hard brake on social mobility. Both of these issues re-enforce what is in fact economic apartheid. This itself then leads to poorer health outcomes, poorer educational outcomes and then the issue becomes systemic, growing by generation with time. Which is where we are today. Chucking rotten tomatoes at each other will not resolve the issue, equally neither will sticking collective heads in sand and using ignorant (my definition) depictions of people on benefits, nor will being critical without offering solutions. Said the Marxist -in- Chief. Who’s sole aim is to lower everyone down to the same level. They tried that in Russia, killed about 20 million peasants in the process. It didn't work.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2020 12:54:10 GMT
Most of that is true Clive But I do despair at this debate, the terrible insults laid at people's door who find themselves having to resort to claiming benefits, as if they actually want to. But all of that ignores the real issues within our economy. At its very core are two main issues. 1) Income distribution: Surely it is blindingly obvious that our current economic model does not work. We have evolved into a system where so much of our national income is under the ownership of far to few of the citizens of this country. This is not caused particularly by the policies of the current regime, they just do not do anything about it. The last Labour regime did try, to their credit, by introducing working tax credits. The problem was that it was half assed and by trying to compromise made it so complicated it acted as a disincentive to work more than 16 hours. 2) The cost of maintaining a home. Either rental or outright ownership. Our housing market is broken, its dysfunctional nature being a hard brake on social mobility. Both of these issues re-enforce what is in fact economic apartheid. This itself then leads to poorer health outcomes, poorer educational outcomes and then the issue becomes systemic, growing by generation with time. Which is where we are today. Chucking rotten tomatoes at each other will not resolve the issue, equally neither will sticking collective heads in sand and using ignorant (my definition) depictions of people on benefits, nor will being critical without offering solutions. Said the Marxist -in- Chief. Who’s sole aim is to lower everyone down to the same level. They tried that in Russia, killed about 20 million peasants in the process. It didn't work. As has been stated so many times, your ignorance is stunning.
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Post by Gassy on Dec 20, 2020 12:57:33 GMT
Christ OldGas posting for not even a day and he’s throwing insults at people already.
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Post by trevorgas on Dec 20, 2020 13:27:12 GMT
Looking at this in a bit more detail there are all sorts of factors as to why we cannot as a Country generate enough folk to do this work and here's my take on it. . Wages are relative low mostly at Minimum wage level or slightly above and this does not incentivise our folk to do it. .it is attractive to Overseas workers as the pay in relation to their cost of living is better and they can return a fair % to their Country of residence where it has bethere buying power. . The seasonal nature does not appeal to our folk . .it is very hard back breaking work in difficult conditions and that does not appeal either. . We as a Country have to accept that in relative terms food is much cheaper now than it was 30 years ago and unless we are willing to pay more then wages for this type of work will remain low . Just my take on it feel free to "pick" it apart!! Most of that is true Clive But I do despair at this debate, the terrible insults laid at people's door who find themselves having to resort to claiming benefits, as if they actually want to. But all of that ignores the real issues within our economy. At its very core are two main issues. 1) Income distribution: Surely it is blindingly obvious that our current economic model does not work. We have evolved into a system where so much of our national income is under the ownership of far to few of the citizens of this country. This is not caused particularly by the policies of the current regime, they just do not do anything about it. The last Labour regime did try, to their credit, by introducing working tax credits. The problem was that it was half assed and by trying to compromise made it so complicated it acted as a disincentive to work more than 16 hours. 2) The cost of maintaining a home. Either rental or outright ownership. Our housing market is broken, its dysfunctional nature being a hard brake on social mobility. Both of these issues re-enforce what is in fact economic apartheid. This itself then leads to poorer health outcomes, poorer educational outcomes and then the issue becomes systemic, growing by generation with time. Which is where we are today. Chucking rotten tomatoes at each other will not resolve the issue, equally neither will sticking collective heads in sand and using ignorant (my definition) depictions of people on benefits, nor will being critical without offering solutions. I agree Les particularly that because you come from a Council estate you are work shy,from my experience there are lazy work shy folk in all stratas of our society and folk at the bottom have from what I have seen less opportunity . To your economic point there are I believe a significant number of people in the UK who have no vested intrest in economic change,middle class home owners who have a level of comfort that they would not want disturbed by upheaval you are alluding to. If change is going to happen it needs an adult exchange with all of us about what we see as important and a priority and how we propose to fund accordingly,what are we prepared to give up to effect a paradigm shift. Alas I do not feel as a Society we have the maturity for a discussion of that nature and sadly neither are the Polticians.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2020 13:36:07 GMT
Christ OldGas posting for not even a day and he’s throwing insults at people already. His lack of vocabulary and knowledge is a vacuum he fills with childlike invective.
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Post by peterparker on Dec 21, 2020 8:12:17 GMT
Nicola Sturgeon calling for extension to transition period due to COVID
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 21, 2020 9:32:27 GMT
Nicola Sturgeon calling for extension to transition period due to COVID There has been a suggestion in the past that we'll end up with an 'interim' or 'provisional' agreement whilst full trade deal discussions continue. Can't see Boris going for that now, he'll lose his backbenchers and his political capital has already been spent on the u-turns, especially the latest Tier 4 grading.
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Post by peterparker on Dec 21, 2020 9:47:30 GMT
Nicola Sturgeon calling for extension to transition period due to COVID There has been a suggestion in the past that we'll end up with an 'interim' or 'provisional' agreement whilst full trade deal discussions continue. Can't see Boris going for that now, he'll lose his backbenchers and his political capital has already been spent on the u-turns, especially the latest Tier 4 grading. can't see it happening, but literally nothing would surprise me A 6 month extension would seem a sensible move to almost any sane person
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Post by oldgas on Dec 21, 2020 9:51:38 GMT
Nicola Sturgeon calling for extension to transition period due to COVID There has been a suggestion in the past that we'll end up with an 'interim' or 'provisional' agreement whilst full trade deal discussions continue. Can't see Boris going for that now, he'll lose his backbenchers and his political capital has already been spent on the u-turns, especially the latest Tier 4 grading. So, rather than change course over Covid, you'd be happy to see possibly thousands more die from this new Covid strain? I wonder what Starmer would do?
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Post by peterparker on Dec 21, 2020 9:56:03 GMT
There has been a suggestion in the past that we'll end up with an 'interim' or 'provisional' agreement whilst full trade deal discussions continue. Can't see Boris going for that now, he'll lose his backbenchers and his political capital has already been spent on the u-turns, especially the latest Tier 4 grading. So, rather than change course over Covid, you'd be happy to see possibly thousands more die from this new Covid strain? I wonder what Starmer would do? WUM
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 21, 2020 10:17:32 GMT
There has been a suggestion in the past that we'll end up with an 'interim' or 'provisional' agreement whilst full trade deal discussions continue. Can't see Boris going for that now, he'll lose his backbenchers and his political capital has already been spent on the u-turns, especially the latest Tier 4 grading. So, rather than change course over Covid, you'd be happy to see possibly thousands more die from this new Covid strain? I wonder what Starmer would do? I don't have any problems with the decision, Oldgas, but backbenchers and ministers have been out defending a government position only to see that position take a 180 degree turn within a few days, plus some don't agree with the strategy and would prefer to follow a different path anyway. Boris is going to need a good 2021 otherwise he won't make the next election.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2020 12:11:05 GMT
Most of that is true Clive But I do despair at this debate, the terrible insults laid at people's door who find themselves having to resort to claiming benefits, as if they actually want to. But all of that ignores the real issues within our economy. At its very core are two main issues. 1) Income distribution: Surely it is blindingly obvious that our current economic model does not work. We have evolved into a system where so much of our national income is under the ownership of far to few of the citizens of this country. This is not caused particularly by the policies of the current regime, they just do not do anything about it. The last Labour regime did try, to their credit, by introducing working tax credits. The problem was that it was half assed and by trying to compromise made it so complicated it acted as a disincentive to work more than 16 hours. 2) The cost of maintaining a home. Either rental or outright ownership. Our housing market is broken, its dysfunctional nature being a hard brake on social mobility. Both of these issues re-enforce what is in fact economic apartheid. This itself then leads to poorer health outcomes, poorer educational outcomes and then the issue becomes systemic, growing by generation with time. Which is where we are today. Chucking rotten tomatoes at each other will not resolve the issue, equally neither will sticking collective heads in sand and using ignorant (my definition) depictions of people on benefits, nor will being critical without offering solutions. Said the Marxist -in- Chief. Who’s sole aim is to lower everyone down to the same level. They tried that in Russia, killed about 20 million peasants in the process. It didn't work. Ah yes, but what was the solution proposed by the likes of the IMF? Short sharp shock capitalism. Tell me how that turned out again?
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