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Post by Hugo the Elder on Dec 19, 2019 13:10:24 GMT
I'd like to try something new on this thread.
The other 2 political threads are really quite unpleasant and everyone is daggers drawn.
What I would like to see is what we as a group can agree on.
No insults. No harking back to past threads. No personal stuff.
Maybe we could stick to one or 2 main themes before moving on to the next.
This should be constructive and all participants be ready to listen and consider the views of others.
I refuse to believe that we are as divided as politicians and news outlets want us to be.
Maybe some basic first on a few fundamentals?
The NHS, Immigration and the justice system may be 3 good places to start.
Remember, I'm looking for points of agreement here and personal views, not picking apart everything.
So I'll kick us off.
NHS: As a minimum the NHS should remain but could do with some reviews as to how it spends its money.
Immigration: People should be able to come to this country to live and work.
Criminal justice: Sentencing needs looking at. Persistent offenders should get increased sentences. Reform and rehabilitation needs to improve.
Are these things most of us agree with?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 13:18:20 GMT
I'd like to try something new on this thread. The other 2 political threads are really quite unpleasant and everyone is daggers drawn. What I would like to see is what we as a group can agree on. No insults. No harking back to past threads. No personal stuff. Maybe we could stick to one or 2 main themes before moving on to the next. This should be constructive and all participants be ready to listen and consider the views of others. I refuse to believe that we are as divided as politicians and news outlets want us to be. Maybe some basic first on a few fundamentals? The NHS, Immigration and the justice system may be 3 good places to start. Remember, I'm looking for points of agreement here and personal views, not picking apart everything. So I'll kick us off. NHS: As a minimum the NHS should remain but could do with some reviews as to how it spends its money. Immigration: People should be able to come to this country to live and work. Criminal justice: Sentencing needs looking at. Persistent offenders should get increased sentences. Reform and rehabilitation needs to improve. Are these things most of us agree with? Personally I would accept and be happy with all of those propositions. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 14:01:01 GMT
NHS. Agree it should remain but needs to evolve and get smarter with its spending. Should we expect it to fund IVF for example? Need tighter control as not a world health service. Ban vile leech lawyers draining money out of it. Encourage more UK citizens to train in medicine. University fees/student debt to those who embark on long NHS careers should be waived.
Immigration. Send economic illegal migrants back - until their fellow countrymen see them arrive back and realise the thousands of pounds they paid traffickers was wasted it will only get worse. Our current approach of allowing them to stay is fuelling illegal traffickers. We should continue to welcome migrants from all over the world (not just the discriminatory allowance afforded to EU citizens) who have skills that are in shortage and allow permanent residence for them and their family. Unskilled migrants “doing the jobs lazy brits refuse to do” should not justify unopposed entry.
Criminal Justice. Throw money at one attempt at rehabilitation and have a separate jail for first time offenders away from career criminals. Serial and serious offenders should be locked up for life with no parole - put the well-being and safety of the general public ahead of the rights of criminals for a change. Make imprisonment cheaper by halfing the size of cells, bread and water, 30 minute recreation in chains should reduce costs.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Dec 19, 2019 14:06:15 GMT
NHS. Agree it should remain but needs to evolve and get smarter with its spending. Should we expect it to fund IVF for example? Need tighter control as not a world health service. Ban vile leech lawyers draining money out of it. Encourage more UK citizens to train in medicine. University fees/student debt to those who embark on long NHS careers should be waived. Immigration. Send economic illegal migrants back - until their fellow countrymen see them arrive back and realise the thousands of pounds they paid traffickers was wasted it will only get worse. Our current approach of allowing them to stay is fuelling illegal traffickers. We should continue to welcome migrants from all over the world (not just the discriminatory allowance afforded to EU citizens) who have skills that are in shortage and allow permanent residence for them and their family. Unskilled migrants “doing the jobs lazy brits refuse to do” should not justify unopposed entry. Criminal Justice. Throw money at one attempt at rehabilitation and have a separate jail for first time offenders away from career criminals. Serial and serious offenders should be locked up for life with no parole - put the well-being and safety of the general public ahead of the rights of criminals for a change. Make imprisonment cheaper by halfing the size of cells, bread and water, 30 minute recreation in chains should reduce costs. Ok, that's great. Quite a lot to unpack there but for the most part the first 3 of us agree with my very basic proposition. I dont want others to jump on this right away, so maybe its something we can get back to as the thread evolves. Cheers. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Dec 19, 2019 14:10:29 GMT
Once we have a few more replies from the usual suspects on General chat I will do a quick summary and we can decide where and what to expand on.
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Post by South Stand Ultra on Dec 19, 2019 14:26:37 GMT
NHS. Agree it should remain but needs to evolve and get smarter with its spending. Should we expect it to fund IVF for example? Need tighter control as not a world health service. Ban vile leech lawyers draining money out of it. Encourage more UK citizens to train in medicine. University fees/student debt to those who embark on long NHS careers should be waived. Immigration. Send economic illegal migrants back - until their fellow countrymen see them arrive back and realise the thousands of pounds they paid traffickers was wasted it will only get worse. Our current approach of allowing them to stay is fuelling illegal traffickers. We should continue to welcome migrants from all over the world (not just the discriminatory allowance afforded to EU citizens) who have skills that are in shortage and allow permanent residence for them and their family. Unskilled migrants “doing the jobs lazy brits refuse to do” should not justify unopposed entry. Criminal Justice. Throw money at one attempt at rehabilitation and have a separate jail for first time offenders away from career criminals. Serial and serious offenders should be locked up for life with no parole - put the well-being and safety of the general public ahead of the rights of criminals for a change. Make imprisonment cheaper by halfing the size of cells, bread and water, 30 minute recreation in chains should reduce costs.
Agree RE:NHS, shouldn't be funding the health tourists who come over and abuse the system. IMO we shouldn't be funding it for IVF either. Why should I have to pay for prescriptions (that's a whole other story) yet people get £1000's for IVF?
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Dec 19, 2019 14:29:26 GMT
NHS. Agree it should remain but needs to evolve and get smarter with its spending. Should we expect it to fund IVF for example? Need tighter control as not a world health service. Ban vile leech lawyers draining money out of it. Encourage more UK citizens to train in medicine. University fees/student debt to those who embark on long NHS careers should be waived. Immigration. Send economic illegal migrants back - until their fellow countrymen see them arrive back and realise the thousands of pounds they paid traffickers was wasted it will only get worse. Our current approach of allowing them to stay is fuelling illegal traffickers. We should continue to welcome migrants from all over the world (not just the discriminatory allowance afforded to EU citizens) who have skills that are in shortage and allow permanent residence for them and their family. Unskilled migrants “doing the jobs lazy brits refuse to do” should not justify unopposed entry. Criminal Justice. Throw money at one attempt at rehabilitation and have a separate jail for first time offenders away from career criminals. Serial and serious offenders should be locked up for life with no parole - put the well-being and safety of the general public ahead of the rights of criminals for a change. Make imprisonment cheaper by halfing the size of cells, bread and water, 30 minute recreation in chains should reduce costs.
Agree RE:NHS, shouldn't be funding the health tourists who come over and abuse the system. IMO we shouldn't be funding it for IVF either. Why should I have to pay for prescriptions (that's a whole other story) yet people get £1000's for IVF?
We can get into how and who uses the NHS later on but what are your thoughts on my 3 fundamental proposals in the OP? |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Dec 19, 2019 14:56:42 GMT
Agree on NHS
Combine the second two. All criminals should be exported.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Dec 19, 2019 15:22:13 GMT
Agree on NHS Combine the second two. All criminals should be exported. Noted. Thanks. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 15:24:39 GMT
I agree with the 3 principles proposed but I’m not sure that really achieves anything in and of itself as it’s conceptually too low a level and lacks detail.
Surprisingly, in a world first, I *do* agree with Eric about the concept of segregating the prison population to give first time offenders more of a chance at being turned into career criminals. I’m not sure that will contribute in any major way to their rehabilitation when they get out but it surely can’t hurt to keep the ideology of hardcore criminals away from them.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Dec 19, 2019 15:29:35 GMT
I agree with the 3 principles proposed but I’m not sure that really achieves anything in and of itself as it’s conceptually too low a level and lacks detail. Surprisingly, in a world first, I *do* agree with Eric about the concept of segregating the prison population to give first time offenders more of a chance at being turned into career criminals. I’m not sure that is a complete solution and will stop them when they get out but it surely can’t hurt to keep the ideology of hardcore criminals away from them. The point is that if we can all agree to some very simple and basic fundamentals then its gives us a much better chance of working together towards meeting those goals. It achieves exactly what I wanted, which is to discuss and understand what we have in common rather than argue over what we dont. It also allows for us to move from point of agreement and mutual respect and by doing so we identify with one another positively. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 16:33:35 GMT
I wouldn't use Eric's language, but I agree with him that we need to look again at the NHS. I would just add social care to that because I do not think you can realistcally separate the two.
We do need to look at what we can afford to provide, provide it and be the best at it. Trying to be all things to all citizens is clearly not working to a standard we deem acceptable to all of us.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 17:16:52 GMT
I agree with the 3 principles proposed but I’m not sure that really achieves anything in and of itself as it’s conceptually too low a level and lacks detail. Surprisingly, in a world first, I *do* agree with Eric about the concept of segregating the prison population to give first time offenders more of a chance at being turned into career criminals. I’m not sure that is a complete solution and will stop them when they get out but it surely can’t hurt to keep the ideology of hardcore criminals away from them. The point is that if we can all agree to some very simple and basic fundamentals then its gives us a much better chance of working together towards meeting those goals. It achieves exactly what I wanted, which is to discuss and understand what we have in common rather than argue over what we dont. It also allows for us to move from point of agreement and mutual respect and by doing so we identify with one another positively. Fair points but, with respect, it initially sort of feels a bit like asking “does everyone like having air to breathe” or such like. You would like to think everyone would agree with the 3 tenets but it’s all a very brittle peace that (imo) will fall apart under the slightest pressure (detail) when political beliefs will be back to the fore. That’s not to say that it’s not a worthwhile exercise though and I’d like to think we all want to agree. I’m interested too in how much people can agree on, just cynical that the answer to that is “very little”, unfortunately. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Dec 19, 2019 17:29:21 GMT
I'm trying to encourage positivity and agreement on issues, rather than hes a lefty idiot, hes a racist Tory.
That achieves nothing.
My hunch is that in the main we all actually think more or less the same on a lot of issues and end results.
Once we all agree on some basics will it be easier to talk about how we get there?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 17:46:07 GMT
I'm trying to encourage positivity and agreement on issues, rather than hes a lefty idiot, hes a racist Tory. That achieves nothing. My hunch is that in the main we all actually think more or less the same on a lot of issues and end results. Once we all agree on some basics will it be easier to talk about how we get there? I think this is absolutely right. But 365 has a point, the devil is in the detail. But let's trod the path and see how far it goes. Back to the NHS. What do we agree the treatments are that we cannot afford to cover? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 22:17:17 GMT
Hugo
It's been 9 hours since you started this thread, do you notice something?
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 19, 2019 22:27:56 GMT
Hugo It's been 9 hours since you started this thread, do you notice something? Okay, give me a chance, I've been busy. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 22:30:50 GMT
Hugo It's been 9 hours since you started this thread, do you notice something? Where’s that tumbleweed gif... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 22:51:19 GMT
Hugo It's been 9 hours since you started this thread, do you notice something? Where’s that tumbleweed gif... Exactly. Those on the certain side of the debate....nothing. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 22:51:50 GMT
Hugo It's been 9 hours since you started this thread, do you notice something? Okay, give me a chance, I've been busy. Not you Stuar6 |
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