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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 7:04:37 GMT
Really hoping I’m not going to be a one of the 1.5m to get a letter this week. A life in complete isolation for three months doesn’t really seem much of a life at all. The best analogy I can come up with is that our parents/grand parents had to pack up their lives and go fight a war for five years. All we have to do is sit on our arses at home for a short spell. That exact thought occured to me Nobby. Jesus Christ.
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Post by scoobydoogas on Mar 23, 2020 7:57:50 GMT
Me and Mrs Scoobydoo took a drive to Cheddar late yesterday afternoon after all the shops there had closed for the day. We'd been couped up all weekend after our trip to Cornwall was cancelled at the 11th hour and we just wanted to get out of the house for a couple of hours and have a walk in some nice scenery where we thought it would be reasonably deserted. However, there were groups of people everywhere. The rock climbing experience was still taking place with a group of around 8 people. Plus there were large gatherings of people in the car parks near the top of the gorge. Around 6pm all the car speed merchants were gathering to race up and down the gorge. Having said that, it wasn't difficult to keep away from these crowds but it just struck me that these people are going to find it difficult when the call comes to totally self isolate. Maybe it was their last hoorah before the inevitable. Should we have even gone out of the house? I don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 8:10:08 GMT
Me and Mrs Scoobydoo took a drive to Cheddar late yesterday afternoon after all the shops there had closed for the day. We'd been couped up all weekend after our trip to Cornwall was cancelled at the 11th hour and we just wanted to get out of the house for a couple of hours and have a walk in some nice scenery where we thought it would be reasonably deserted. However, there were groups of people everywhere. The rock climbing experience was still taking place with a group of around 8 people. Plus there were large gatherings of people in the car parks near the top of the gorge. Around 6pm all the car speed merchants were gathering to race up and down the gorge. Having said that, it wasn't difficult to keep away from these crowds but it just struck me that these people are going to find it difficult when the call comes to totally self isolate. Maybe it was their last hoorah before the inevitable. Should we have even gone out of the house? I don't know. Clearly,you shouldn't have done that. From afar, you are one of the people you describe. The advice is clear, no travel except absolutely essential travel. A jolly down to Cheddar does not qualify on any metric.
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Marshy
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Post by Marshy on Mar 23, 2020 8:15:20 GMT
Me and Mrs Scoobydoo took a drive to Cheddar late yesterday afternoon after all the shops there had closed for the day. We'd been couped up all weekend after our trip to Cornwall was cancelled at the 11th hour and we just wanted to get out of the house for a couple of hours and have a walk in some nice scenery where we thought it would be reasonably deserted. However, there were groups of people everywhere. The rock climbing experience was still taking place with a group of around 8 people. Plus there were large gatherings of people in the car parks near the top of the gorge. Around 6pm all the car speed merchants were gathering to race up and down the gorge. Having said that, it wasn't difficult to keep away from these crowds but it just struck me that these people are going to find it difficult when the call comes to totally self isolate. Maybe it was their last hoorah before the inevitable. Should we have even gone out of the house? I don't know. You’re barking!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 8:18:13 GMT
Me and Mrs Scoobydoo took a drive to Cheddar late yesterday afternoon after all the shops there had closed for the day. We'd been couped up all weekend after our trip to Cornwall was cancelled at the 11th hour and we just wanted to get out of the house for a couple of hours and have a walk in some nice scenery where we thought it would be reasonably deserted. However, there were groups of people everywhere. The rock climbing experience was still taking place with a group of around 8 people. Plus there were large gatherings of people in the car parks near the top of the gorge. Around 6pm all the car speed merchants were gathering to race up and down the gorge. Having said that, it wasn't difficult to keep away from these crowds but it just struck me that these people are going to find it difficult when the call comes to totally self isolate. Maybe it was their last hoorah before the inevitable. Should we have even gone out of the house? I don't know. You’re barking! Much worse. Totally selfish.
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 23, 2020 8:18:31 GMT
Me and Mrs Scoobydoo took a drive to Cheddar late yesterday afternoon after all the shops there had closed for the day. We'd been couped up all weekend after our trip to Cornwall was cancelled at the 11th hour and we just wanted to get out of the house for a couple of hours and have a walk in some nice scenery where we thought it would be reasonably deserted. However, there were groups of people everywhere. The rock climbing experience was still taking place with a group of around 8 people. Plus there were large gatherings of people in the car parks near the top of the gorge. Around 6pm all the car speed merchants were gathering to race up and down the gorge. Having said that, it wasn't difficult to keep away from these crowds but it just struck me that these people are going to find it difficult when the call comes to totally self isolate. Maybe it was their last hoorah before the inevitable. Should we have even gone out of the house? I don't know. Darwinism in action, the human race will die out and cats inherit the Earth.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 8:21:22 GMT
Me and Mrs Scoobydoo took a drive to Cheddar late yesterday afternoon after all the shops there had closed for the day. We'd been couped up all weekend after our trip to Cornwall was cancelled at the 11th hour and we just wanted to get out of the house for a couple of hours and have a walk in some nice scenery where we thought it would be reasonably deserted. However, there were groups of people everywhere. The rock climbing experience was still taking place with a group of around 8 people. Plus there were large gatherings of people in the car parks near the top of the gorge. Around 6pm all the car speed merchants were gathering to race up and down the gorge. Having said that, it wasn't difficult to keep away from these crowds but it just struck me that these people are going to find it difficult when the call comes to totally self isolate. Maybe it was their last hoorah before the inevitable. Should we have even gone out of the house? I don't know. Darwinism in action, the human race will die out and cats inherit the Earth. I am starting to hope that Richard Dawkin's theories on genetics plays out. Covid19 results in a Eugenic response.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 8:30:12 GMT
Maybe you should consider others. If we all have to isolate ourselves for the good of everyone else then 12 weeks is a small price to pay. If I was provided euthanasia as an alternative option I would genuinely consider that very carefully. I can’t stand the idea of enforced incarceration in solitary confinement but likewise don’t want to be a burden to the authorities, especially the NHS. Hopefully I won’t be getting the letter. Although my medication suggests I’m in an at risk category I can’t believe I’m anywhere near the most vulnerable 1.5m in the country. Most days I run 8 miles and do a 50 mile bike ride on weekends. Despite the meds which I’ve been on for 15+ years I barely ever get the colds, bugs and normal flu which spreads through my workplace and social groups every year. People of a certain age and the obese would be better candidates for the efforts of people running around with food and medication supplies.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 8:32:35 GMT
Maybe you should consider others. If we all have to isolate ourselves for the good of everyone else then 12 weeks is a small price to pay. If I was provided euthanasia as an alternative option I would genuinely consider that very carefully. I can’t stand the idea of enforced incarceration in solitary confinement but likewise don’t want to be a burden to the authorities, especially the NHS. Hopefully I won’t be getting the letter. Although my medication suggests I’m in an at risk category I can’t believe I’m anywhere near the most vulnerable 1.5m in the country. Most days I run 8 miles and do a 50 mile bike ride on weekends. Despite the meds which I’ve been on for 15+ years I barely ever get the colds, bugs and normal flu which spreads through my workplace and social groups every year. People of a certain age and the obese would be better candidates for the efforts of people running around with food and medication supplies. Jesus Christ
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 23, 2020 8:39:32 GMT
Maybe you should consider others. If we all have to isolate ourselves for the good of everyone else then 12 weeks is a small price to pay. If I was provided euthanasia as an alternative option I would genuinely consider that very carefully. I can’t stand the idea of enforced incarceration in solitary confinement but likewise don’t want to be a burden to the authorities, especially the NHS. Hopefully I won’t be getting the letter. Although my medication suggests I’m in an at risk category I can’t believe I’m anywhere near the most vulnerable 1.5m in the country. Most days I run 8 miles and do a 50 mile bike ride on weekends. Despite the meds which I’ve been on for 15+ years I barely ever get the colds, bugs and normal flu which spreads through my workplace and social groups every year. People of a certain age and the obese would be better candidates for the efforts of people running around with food and medication supplies. You'd rather die than stay at home for a bit to protect yourself and others? Really?
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Post by althepirate on Mar 23, 2020 8:46:17 GMT
Fingers crossed for you Eric. I think they said letters should start being delivered Tuesday, so I would imagine you'll know by Friday? I dread to think of my Father's reaction if he gets one, 12 weeks, he'll go nuts. Would not be surprised if we are all put in some kind of lock down soon. We just have to suck it up. As usual a bunch of selfish pricks ruin it for everyone. People hoarding food. Fighting in supermarkets. Snowdonia seeing record breaking visitors. Parks and seaside resorts packed. Some pubs remaining open. The worst of humanity on show. Very depressing. Christ, are you a journalist for the Daily Mail? Any chance you can look as well at the best parts of humanity on show right now? The thousands of people helping each other for a start? Let's pick the worst bits of society and say that's all of it shall we? www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-51958105
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 8:52:13 GMT
New rules here announced over the weekend. Now, there are to be no gatherings of more than two people. Obviously this doesn't apply to family units. Shops, like the UK, are short of some items. Here it's toilet rolls, eggs, flour and snacks like crisps. These are all in very short supply. Other shelves, like canned vegetables, are depleted but they are still available. I need to stock up on tea bags because if they run out then I may go all Rambo !
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Mar 23, 2020 9:01:44 GMT
Quick question. Possibly a stupid question. Both my Father and I enjoy a brief walk around the village. 30 minutes or so. We go seperate. Understand social distancing, although we both rarely stop to chat to anyone. However, on lovely weather days like today, if you want some fresh air and get out of the house, what's the harm in jumping in the car, and going for a spin? Going out is absolutely fine. The key here is to ensure you are far enough away from everybody though. Walking round the park, fine. Queuing shoulder to shoulder for fish and chips at Weston pier is not. Remember, you don't have to be showing symptoms to be a carrier and to be infectious. When you are home, wash anything you touched on the way in and then yourself. Shouldn't be a problem. Infection control is not always perfect but even if you do get exposed, you can limit the amount of exposure you get which (we think) is important to the severity of symptoms you do get. If shopping, do your best to distance. Supermarkets are an excellent place to pick up germs. When you get home take the above steps and wipe down anything you've touched including in the car. You can wipe down anything needing the fridge or freezer and then if possible, just leave the rest in bags for 72 hours.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Mar 23, 2020 9:12:13 GMT
The reality is 233 from 67million, but no lack of compassion, no complacency. Stay in, stay safe. With the death toll creeping upwards i wondered if there is any information about death rates. For example, yesterday we were at 233 deaths but were these people already seriously unwell? Will Dr’s be recording things such as would these people have been likely hospitalised around the same time and in all likelihood have been expected to pass away in the very near future anyway. I don’t personally know of anyone yet that has contracted the virus but it’s only a matter of time. Where a relatively young (say under 50), fit healthy person contracts it what is the likelihood of being hospitalised or even dying? At the moment I’m seeing public figures in this demographic coming out as testing positive and they seem to do quite well. I'm in no way playing down the virus and I’m taking the same precautionary steps as everyone else but hear lots of scary information and would like to see some context and better understand the strain which is being put on the health services. I'm not very trusting of any forms of media at the moment. Too much over sensationalising and selective reporting. For example, saw a headline grabbing piece the other day saying Britain has just had its youngest death which was a chap in his early forties. Read further and see he had that vile disease MND, terrible obviously but unhelpful reporting as trying to grab attention with a headline which will have scared a lot of other 40 year olds, in reasonable good health. If you are fit and healthy (no pre-existing medical conditions) and under 50, the likelihood of you being hospitalised is very small. For the general population, I would (very) broadly expect this to happen (n=100 patients) EDITED Start 100 people 75% get the virus (n=75) 30% require healthcare (n=25)* 30% require admission (n=8)* 50% of those require ICU admission (n=4)* 50% of those will not survive (n=2)* We are hearing that the ones in the higher risk group tend to deviate more towards 10% death rate and the younger ones more towards 1% so the above is average. If you look at the ones that I have marked with *, this is where healthcare capacity comes in. Right now we are potentially doing a little better than this but as pressure is applied, the * parts may begin to fail for some patients in access, ability to refer, available beds and treatments and so on. This is where we begin to see shift. So, as a fit and healthy individual your chances of dying are very small indeed but as time goes on, those odds may begin to shorten because if you are unlucky enough to reach line 3 or 4 in the above model, those % may have worsened.
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Post by scoobydoogas on Mar 23, 2020 9:17:53 GMT
Quick question. Possibly a stupid question. Both my Father and I enjoy a brief walk around the village. 30 minutes or so. We go seperate. Understand social distancing, although we both rarely stop to chat to anyone. However, on lovely weather days like today, if you want some fresh air and get out of the house, what's the harm in jumping in the car, and going for a spin? Going out is absolutely fine. The key here is to ensure you are far enough away from everybody though. Walking round the park, fine. Queuing shoulder to shoulder for fish and chips at Weston pier is not. Remember, you don't have to be showing symptoms to be a carrier and to be infectious. When you are home, wash anything you touched on the way in and then yourself. Shouldn't be a problem. Infection control is not always perfect but even if you do get exposed, you can limit the amount of exposure you get which (we think) is important to the severity of symptoms you do get. If shopping, do your best to distance. Supermarkets are an excellent place to pick up germs. When you get home take the above steps and wipe down anything you've touched including in the car. You can wipe down anything needing the fridge or freezer and then if possible, just leave the rest in bags for 72 hours. That's interesting advice. I would not have considered wiping down my shopping or the inside of my car. What is your suggestion for wiping down food items? I don't have much in the way of sanitiser but I do have plenty of soap and water. Will that be enough? I've been stuck inside my house for a couple of weeks (apart from a weekly trip to Tesco) since I was told to work from home for the foreseeable so it's good to know that popping out for a walk is still allowed as long as we adhere to social distancing. Thanks for the confirmation. I still feel that popping to the shops for essentials is the greatest risk of infection. My Tesco store has put black tape on the floors at checkouts to try and get shoppers to adhere to distancing but that does not seem to be working. Indeed, when I was there on Friday for my weekly shop I was standing behind the marked area as instructed and another shopper walked in front of me. Seems they thought I hadn't moved forward quickly enough and they saw an opportunity to nip in.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Mar 23, 2020 9:24:12 GMT
I don't think I've heard of anyone other than those in already ill health dying due to catching the virus. There was a member of a family in the US who was 50’s with no underlying health conditions (explicitly stated by the BBC) who died from coronavirus. Also (presumably healthy) doctors in China have died from it. I believe the viral load point made by OB is the significant bit. The amount of CV you are exposed to makes a difference, therefore health professionals are more likely to be at risk also the (apparently) healthy 50+ year old mentioned above contracted it at a family party where their parent and numerous siblings also contracted it so you could perhaps argue that as a good number of the family came down with it personal health goes out the window when the area you are working/living in is teeming with the virus. This is all speculation based on putting 2 & 2 together though, so maybe OB can correct me. Yes exactly. Viral load viral load. A healthy person receiving a surface based dose from a supermarket trolley is unlikely to become very unwell with it. However, the moment the become infectious at home, they begin shedding it all over the place. The family members next to them become exposed to higher levels of the virus and when they get it, they are worse. Imagine then the third person who has been in the house and exposed to two people shedding. This is all unproven at the moment but there is evidence for it both in this strain and other coronal strains out there today. Look at the critically unwell and dead younger people - disproportionately healthcare workers and so massive exposure. As a result then we expect there to be a progression of severity for a while, until anyone isolating at home with others has had it. Then social distancing should help keep transmission levels and severity as low as possible. The point remains that you are still likely to fight if off easily if you are young fit and healthy but its a bit like me handing you 100 skittles, 1 of which may kill you. You would certainly decide not to eat them all. You may decide not to eat any at all as the risk is not worth it. Now consider, that you had to eat one of them regardless. You would have a certain degree of anxiety knowing 1 of them would kill you but the odds are in your favour. What I am suggesting I suppose is that it is not a given that only 1 of those skittles would kill you if you are fit and healthy. Depending on other factors, perhaps 5 or 6 may be poison. If you were in the high risk group, 10 of those skittles may kill you as a starting point. add the viral load factor in and its not unreasonable to say 15.
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Post by scoobydoogas on Mar 23, 2020 9:24:36 GMT
With the death toll creeping upwards i wondered if there is any information about death rates. For example, yesterday we were at 233 deaths but were these people already seriously unwell? Will Dr’s be recording things such as would these people have been likely hospitalised around the same time and in all likelihood have been expected to pass away in the very near future anyway. I don’t personally know of anyone yet that has contracted the virus but it’s only a matter of time. Where a relatively young (say under 50), fit healthy person contracts it what is the likelihood of being hospitalised or even dying? At the moment I’m seeing public figures in this demographic coming out as testing positive and they seem to do quite well. I'm in no way playing down the virus and I’m taking the same precautionary steps as everyone else but hear lots of scary information and would like to see some context and better understand the strain which is being put on the health services. I'm not very trusting of any forms of media at the moment. Too much over sensationalising and selective reporting. For example, saw a headline grabbing piece the other day saying Britain has just had its youngest death which was a chap in his early forties. Read further and see he had that vile disease MND, terrible obviously but unhelpful reporting as trying to grab attention with a headline which will have scared a lot of other 40 year olds, in reasonable good health. If you are fit and healthy (no pre-existing medical conditions) and under 50, the likelihood of you being hospitalised is very small. For the general population, I would (very) broadly expect this to happen (n=100 patients) Start 100 people 75% get the virus (n=75) 30% require healthcare (n=25)* 30% of those require ICU admission (n=8)* 50% of those will not survive (n=4)* We are hearing that the ones in the higher risk group tend to deviate more towards 10% death rate and the younger ones more towards 1% so the above is average. If you look at the ones that I have marked with *, this is where healthcare capacity comes in. Right now we are potentially doing a little better than this but as pressure is applied, the * parts may begin to fail for some patients in access, ability to refer, available beds and treatments and so on. This is where we begin to see shift. So, as a fit and healthy individual your chances of dying are very small indeed but as time goes on, those odds may begin to shorten because if you are unlucky enough to reach line 3 or 4 in the above model, those % may have worsened. A 4% death rate seems to be the anticipated figure across countries if all the figures are accurate. For the UK with a population of 67M that's 2.68M people which is truly shocking.
On a separate note, I PM'd you yesterday afternoon and wonder if you have had chance to read it yet. I would appreciate your NHS expertise.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Mar 23, 2020 9:31:54 GMT
My wife and her sister have been drumming the self isolation message into their parents all week. My mother in law calls this morning about the news that meeting up on Mother's Day us being discouraged, saying they didn't realise what was going on. Bloody Hell. Stuart, you seem very well informed and have probably done a lot more research than most given your family circumstances. I hope your lad stays safe and well btw. What is the long term strategy of social isolation? I get that we want to reduce the strain an on the NHS and limit the spread as much as possible. What about beyond that? If we go even further with this lockdown and everything then settles down with reported death and positive tests reduced or disappearing then what? At some stage will these sanctions be lifted and we could be back to square one and have to go through the whole cycle again or is enforced isolation going to be in place until a vaccine is found and readily available? That’s partly why I asked my earlier question which hopefully OB may be able to offer some thoughts about having some alternative, more radical approaches? In a way this is what flattening the curve is about. COVID19 is out there now in the community. It isn't going away. Just like other corona viruses and influeza, it will stay circulating in the community until enough people have had it that the only real way for it to survive is to mutate in to a new strain which is different enough for it to get around our antibodies. So, really it is about ensuring that we don't get overwhelmed. If we had the perfect healthcare system - flawless - and absolute capacity, you would see a mortality rate of 4% perhaps. With no healthcare at all maybe 9%. This is where the focus has to be on delaying transmission (social distancing), reducing viral load (social distancing, hygiene practices), and increasing healthcare provision. What they initially wanted was to avoid a double peaked pattern as I believe they had with SARS/MERS. When isolation measures were lifted, they hadn't infected enough people for spread to remain at low levels. If we end up there, that second peak is due in the winter with obvious challenges there in healthcare seasonality.
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Post by peterparker on Mar 23, 2020 9:34:18 GMT
I had to go for a walk on Sunday to clear my head. Kids and wife were stressing me out. I don't want to lose that freedom because others have abused the freedom we do have.
Makes me sick to think how ignorant and/or naïve some of these people are. All the people queueing up to ransack the supermarket. What can they possibly still need
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Mar 23, 2020 9:40:57 GMT
OB can you put some light on why Germany has recorded 23,937 positive cases and only 93 deaths (and that's 93 too many), whereas in the UK we have 5,018 cases and 240 deaths. Is it purely down to numbers tested for the virus ? Yes very interesting. As far as I can tell Germany have done 2 things significantly differently (nobby can correct me on this) 1. They introduced social distancing with actual, tangible rules. They limited gatherings to 3 people. Consider the amazing effect this will have on reducing viral load and therefore severity. 2. THEY TEST EVERYONE - They perform 160000 tests a week. To date, the UK has only tested a third of that for the whole period. Those that have it, get told and isolate. They really isolate because they know they have it. Those that don't have it, can go back to work. In the UK, we have 5018 recorded cases. A week or so ago, they stopped testing anyone who didn't need ADMISSION to hospital. You could turn up at an A&E with a bad chest infection, fever, the works. If you weren't bad enough to be admitted overnight, they would send you home with no test. So consider that only 30% of people need healthcare and less so need admission. Can you even imagine how many cases there are out there in the community? I reckon it is easily 50000. Easily. So there's the answer, our death to case ratio is closer because we are under reporting as a result of our cessation of testing. I suspect our death rate is higher as well because as far as I can see, people thing its a good idea to go to the Dam beach.
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