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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 14, 2020 9:50:51 GMT
One of the reasons given for not introducing the lockdown earlier was the loss of public confidence and buy in from the country as a whole. I can understand that thought but still think we could have done it earlier (Officer B suggested this about a week earlierif I recall). in terms of questions I'd like to know why we are not including non hospital deaths (supposedly a time lag, but others have questioned the actual practical issues used to justify that or the methodology) and also whether we could have done more to procure items such as PPE (why did we not participate in the EU scheme for example). There are some things the Government can't be blamed for, but many things they can and should do more about. The EU scheme was for ventilators? And as was pointed out by Andrew Neil a few days ago, the EU have actually provided ZERO ventilators via the scheme as they are still having meetings to discuss it. It seems as though the EU just cannot do anything above a snails pace.I The shortage of PPE is worldwide, and I suggest it is because of the huge demand plus China bought up all the spare supplies when the virus first appeared there. According to The Guardian today, there is a separate programme about to deliver more items than requested. As I said, there may be very good reasons (we all know The Guardian is hardly a government supporting paper and not amiss at seeking a story) but at the moment we are using 3D printing to get 'something' albeit suboptimal. |
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Post by Gassy on Apr 14, 2020 10:01:48 GMT
One of the reasons given for not introducing the lockdown earlier was the loss of public confidence and buy in from the country as a whole. I can understand that thought but still think we could have done it earlier (Officer B suggested this about a week earlierif I recall). in terms of questions I'd like to know why we are not including non hospital deaths (supposedly a time lag, but others have questioned the actual practical issues used to justify that or the methodology) and also whether we could have done more to procure items such as PPE (why did we not participate in the EU scheme for example). There are some things the Government can't be blamed for, but many things they can and should do more about. The EU scheme was for ventilators? And as was pointed out by Andrew Neil a few days ago, the EU have actually provided ZERO ventilators via the scheme as they are still having meetings to discuss it. It seems as though the EU just cannot do anything above a snails pace.I The shortage of PPE is worldwide, and I suggest it is because of the huge demand plus China bought up all the spare supplies when the virus first appeared there. Agree with Stuart regarding the reasoning for the timing of the lock down, but I think they already had the full support at that point. Gatherings were self-closing (EG Football), which I think we're one of the only countries that had places closing before the government told them to. But yeah, I also think a week earlier should have been the lock down date. Most countries have similar issues with non-hospital deaths I believe. An example was France about a week ago which went from 600 deaths to 1350, those additional deaths were non hospital deaths over the 2 weeks. When it comes to PPE, you can look at no other than Mr Jeremy Hunt - which is ironic as he's been in the media slating their decision making. He made the decision in 2016 (I think it was 2016, but in and around that time) to stop stock piling of PPE in his NHS cut backs. I also don't understand why MPs have been given £10k to set up working from home, whilst at the same time "Now is not the time to discuss NHS wage increases". Apparently the EU though is getting their PPE deliveries no though, which the UK missed 2/3 opportunities to join the procurement. So quite frankly, they really f*cked that up. And of course I'm sure we'll hear "I'm sorry you feel that way" |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 10:04:45 GMT
The government updates are decent tbf. However, the guidance to them has been poor - as has Boris' decision making. We were lucky enough to see exactly what Italy & Spain had done and been through and make improvements. We did nothing and instead decided to follow the same path, which is a bit of a joke tbh. The level of testing is absolutely pathetic too. So, why did the scientists not say we cannot possibly test to the degree necessary to enable the same outcome as Germany? Why did the scientists not say we do not have the supply of Ventilators and PPE to handle the demand surge that they predicted? Why are we getting bullshit graphs showing the decline in transport usage? Just because the graphs point downwards? That in itself is mendacious propaganda. |
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Post by Gassy on Apr 14, 2020 10:08:18 GMT
The government updates are decent tbf. However, the guidance to them has been poor - as has Boris' decision making. We were lucky enough to see exactly what Italy & Spain had done and been through and make improvements. We did nothing and instead decided to follow the same path, which is a bit of a joke tbh. The level of testing is absolutely pathetic too. So, why did the scientists not say we cannot possibly test to the degree necessary to enable the same outcome as Germany? Why did the scientists not say we do not have the supply of Ventilators and PPE to handle the demand surge that they predicted? Why are we getting bullshit graphs showing the decline in transport usage? Just because the graphs point downwards? That in itself is mendacious propaganda. I'm not quite sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with what I'm saying? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 10:32:03 GMT
So, why did the scientists not say we cannot possibly test to the degree necessary to enable the same outcome as Germany? Why did the scientists not say we do not have the supply of Ventilators and PPE to handle the demand surge that they predicted? Why are we getting bullshit graphs showing the decline in transport usage? Just because the graphs point downwards? That in itself is mendacious propaganda. I'm not quite sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with what I'm saying? Yes it I think I confused myself in responding to you directly. To clear that up I thought the initial response to set up these daily presentations and expose the experts to questioning was a good one and to be admired. However I feel it's degenerated into non answers and power point presentations which appear to deflect from the real questions. But having said all that, I still accept now is not the time. When this is over then we can look back and say "Bloody hell, do you realise what you did after 2010? That left us in this state? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 10:34:01 GMT
The government updates are decent tbf. However, the guidance to them has been poor - as has Boris' decision making. We were lucky enough to see exactly what Italy & Spain had done and been through and make improvements. We did nothing and instead decided to follow the same path, which is a bit of a joke tbh. The level of testing is absolutely pathetic too. So, why did the scientists not say we cannot possibly test to the degree necessary to enable the same outcome as Germany? Why did the scientists not say we do not have the supply of Ventilators and PPE to handle the demand surge that they predicted? Why are we getting bullshit graphs showing the decline in transport usage? Just because the graphs point downwards? That in itself is mendacious propaganda. No country had the required PPE, except for China as they had already been buying up all the stocks from around the world. Even here in Germany there are questions being asked as to why the medical staff do not have enough PPE. It is not just a UK thing. As for testing Germany had the huge facility needed to process the tests. The UK, France, Italy etc didn't. Ventilators? Every country in the world needs more. |
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Post by Gassy on Apr 14, 2020 10:55:31 GMT
So, why did the scientists not say we cannot possibly test to the degree necessary to enable the same outcome as Germany? Why did the scientists not say we do not have the supply of Ventilators and PPE to handle the demand surge that they predicted? Why are we getting bullshit graphs showing the decline in transport usage? Just because the graphs point downwards? That in itself is mendacious propaganda. No country had the required PPE, except for China as they had already been buying up all the stocks from around the world. Even here in Germany there are questions being asked as to why the medical staff do not have enough PPE. It is not just a UK thing. As for testing Germany had the huge facility needed to process the tests. The UK, France, Italy etc didn't. Ventilators? Every country in the world needs more. I'm sure many countries are having PPE issues, are Germany using bin bags yet? We've run out of full sleeve aprons now apparently too. The UK has the capacity for testing without a problem. It took us about a month to be able to test 10,000 a day. We have a lot of HQ's and laboratories in the UK, there is no reason why we can't. GSK & Astrazeneca had put themselves forward to handle more testing, but for some reason the government didn't bite. On the 9th April; these were the daily tests completed: USA 153k Russia 94k Italy 46k Turkey 28k India 16k Canada 14k Australia 10k UK 10k Pakistan 10k Peru 9k S. Korea 8.7k Poland 8k Czech 8k Germany didn't make the list, but supposedly are completing about 150k a day I believe. Not sure on the numbers of France. Testing is clearly key, we have 500,000 front line NHS workers yet only about 30k have been tested? Until we know our real numbers, we can forget any sort of relaxing of the lock down. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 11:04:30 GMT
No country had the required PPE, except for China as they had already been buying up all the stocks from around the world. Even here in Germany there are questions being asked as to why the medical staff do not have enough PPE. It is not just a UK thing. As for testing Germany had the huge facility needed to process the tests. The UK, France, Italy etc didn't. Ventilators? Every country in the world needs more. I'm sure many countries are having PPE issues, are Germany using bin bags yet? We've run out of full sleeve aprons now apparently too. The UK has the capacity for testing without a problem. It took us about a month to be able to test 10,000 a day. We have a lot of HQ's and laboratories in the UK, there is no reason why we can't. GSK & Astrazeneca had put themselves forward to handle more testing, but for some reason the government didn't bite. On the 9th April; these were the daily tests completed: USA 153k Russia 94k Italy 46k Turkey 28k India 16k Canada 14k Australia 10k UK 10k Pakistan 10k Peru 9k S. Korea 8.7k Poland 8k Czech 8k Germany didn't make the list, but supposedly are completing about 150k a day I believe. Not sure on the numbers of France. Testing is clearly key, we have 500,000 front line NHS workers yet only about 30k have been tested? Until we know our real numbers, we can forget any sort of relaxing of the lock down. We now know that Public Health England turned down the offer from private companies to perform tests. They wanted to keep it all in-house, but they have been found to be, shall we be polite, lacking. The government have now over ruled them and opened it all up to private companies, hence the large increase we will soon see in testing. I am pretty sure that once this is all over many heads will roll in PHE. |
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Post by Gassy on Apr 14, 2020 11:22:30 GMT
I'm sure many countries are having PPE issues, are Germany using bin bags yet? We've run out of full sleeve aprons now apparently too. The UK has the capacity for testing without a problem. It took us about a month to be able to test 10,000 a day. We have a lot of HQ's and laboratories in the UK, there is no reason why we can't. GSK & Astrazeneca had put themselves forward to handle more testing, but for some reason the government didn't bite. On the 9th April; these were the daily tests completed: USA 153k Russia 94k Italy 46k Turkey 28k India 16k Canada 14k Australia 10k UK 10k Pakistan 10k Peru 9k S. Korea 8.7k Poland 8k Czech 8k Germany didn't make the list, but supposedly are completing about 150k a day I believe. Not sure on the numbers of France. Testing is clearly key, we have 500,000 front line NHS workers yet only about 30k have been tested? Until we know our real numbers, we can forget any sort of relaxing of the lock down. We now know that Public Health England turned down the offer from private companies to perform tests. They wanted to keep it all in-house, but they have been found to be, shall we be polite, lacking. The government have now over ruled them and opened it all up to private companies, hence the large increase we will soon see in testing. I am pretty sure that once this is all over many heads will roll in PHE. For the governments sake, I hope you're right. Not that it makes much difference either way. However, I just feel they're laying on the blame game to anyone they can at the moment: - EU procurement for ventilators. UK response was no, we're not part of the EU. Then it changed to we made a mistake internally and didn't see it. Then changed to admitting a mistake and will join it next time. - Lack of testing. UK response was lack of the compound needed to identify the virus. Then it changed to Public Health England's fault. (Why couldn't they step in before? After all, they're the ones in charge here. Better decision making should have happened) - Lack of PPE. UK response was we're getting more. Then it's a global shortage. We missed the EU procurement again which is now being delivered. Front line workers are now dying, but the government is "Sorry if you feel that way". We had the opportunity to be ahead of the game, we had direct models of what did work in Germany & South Korea, and models that didn't work in Italy & Spain. Which one did we choose? Unfortunately, we've been generally pretty reactive, rather than pro-active. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 11:54:45 GMT
So, why did the scientists not say we cannot possibly test to the degree necessary to enable the same outcome as Germany? Why did the scientists not say we do not have the supply of Ventilators and PPE to handle the demand surge that they predicted? Why are we getting bullshit graphs showing the decline in transport usage? Just because the graphs point downwards? That in itself is mendacious propaganda. No country had the required PPE, except for China as they had already been buying up all the stocks from around the world. Even here in Germany there are questions being asked as to why the medical staff do not have enough PPE. It is not just a UK thing. As for testing Germany had the huge facility needed to process the tests. The UK, France, Italy etc didn't. Ventilators? Every country in the world needs more. I agree Nobby, no country got this right. But Jeremy Hunt ran a pandemic simulation, 2015 I think and the issues that have come to the fore were identified. I get keeping a near doubling of Ventilators in stock to cover for this is not realistic, but a margin of 20% might be reasonable, to give us breathing space to procure? For PPE I see no reason why we couldn't have one year's supply in stock given their relative cost and they can be cycled into the chain by the "use by date" and replenished. That in effect is a one off cost. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 11:57:26 GMT
I'm sure many countries are having PPE issues, are Germany using bin bags yet? We've run out of full sleeve aprons now apparently too. The UK has the capacity for testing without a problem. It took us about a month to be able to test 10,000 a day. We have a lot of HQ's and laboratories in the UK, there is no reason why we can't. GSK & Astrazeneca had put themselves forward to handle more testing, but for some reason the government didn't bite. On the 9th April; these were the daily tests completed: USA 153k Russia 94k Italy 46k Turkey 28k India 16k Canada 14k Australia 10k UK 10k Pakistan 10k Peru 9k S. Korea 8.7k Poland 8k Czech 8k Germany didn't make the list, but supposedly are completing about 150k a day I believe. Not sure on the numbers of France. Testing is clearly key, we have 500,000 front line NHS workers yet only about 30k have been tested? Until we know our real numbers, we can forget any sort of relaxing of the lock down. We now know that Public Health England turned down the offer from private companies to perform tests. They wanted to keep it all in-house, but they have been found to be, shall we be polite, lacking. The government have now over ruled them and opened it all up to private companies, hence the large increase we will soon see in testing. I am pretty sure that once this is all over many heads will roll in PHE. Yes agreed. But politically the Health Secretary had ultimate responsibility and authority. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 11:59:38 GMT
We now know that Public Health England turned down the offer from private companies to perform tests. They wanted to keep it all in-house, but they have been found to be, shall we be polite, lacking. The government have now over ruled them and opened it all up to private companies, hence the large increase we will soon see in testing. I am pretty sure that once this is all over many heads will roll in PHE. For the governments sake, I hope you're right. Not that it makes much difference either way. However, I just feel they're laying on the blame game to anyone they can at the moment: - EU procurement for ventilators. UK response was no, we're not part of the EU. Then it changed to we made a mistake internally and didn't see it. Then changed to admitting a mistake and will join it next time. - Lack of testing. UK response was lack of the compound needed to identify the virus. Then it changed to Public Health England's fault. (Why couldn't they step in before? After all, they're the ones in charge here. Better decision making should have happened) - Lack of PPE. UK response was we're getting more. Then it's a global shortage. We missed the EU procurement again which is now being delivered. Front line workers are now dying, but the government is "Sorry if you feel that way". We had the opportunity to be ahead of the game, we had direct models of what did work in Germany & South Korea, and models that didn't work in Italy & Spain. Which one did we choose? Unfortunately, we've been generally pretty reactive, rather than pro-active. Yes, this. Although I would add inactive. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 14, 2020 12:21:25 GMT
Some updated figures about non hospital deaths from ONS (Sky report).
Nearly one in 10 coronavirus-related deaths in England and Wales happened outside hospitals in the week ending 3 April, according to the Office for National Statistics.
The 406 deaths were not included in the daily NHS and Department of Health figures, which only count hospital deaths.
The number is made up of 217 deaths in care homes, 33 in hospices, 136 in private homes, three in other communal
establishments, and 17 elsewhere.
Some 3,716 virus-related deaths were in hospitals during the week in question - or 90.2% of the total, said the ONS.
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Post by Gassy on Apr 14, 2020 13:50:02 GMT
1 in 5 deaths in England and Wales are now linked to Coronavirus.
"It's just a flu" - they said.
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 14, 2020 14:35:08 GMT
Well done, that man! A 99-year-old army veteran who has joined the fundraising fight against Covid-19 has "smashed" his £500,000 target. Tom Moore aims to complete 100 laps of his Bedfordshire garden by Thursday, walking with the aid of a frame. He originally hoped to raise £1,000 for NHS Charities Together, to thank "magnificent" staff after recent treatment for a broken hip and cancer. He said: "I thank the British public from the bottom of my heart." www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-52269398It lifts your spirits, just to read about it. Certainly does. Broken the £2m barrier now. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-52278746 |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 18:04:43 GMT
We now know that Public Health England turned down the offer from private companies to perform tests. They wanted to keep it all in-house, but they have been found to be, shall we be polite, lacking. The government have now over ruled them and opened it all up to private companies, hence the large increase we will soon see in testing. I am pretty sure that once this is all over many heads will roll in PHE. For the governments sake, I hope you're right. Not that it makes much difference either way. However, I just feel they're laying on the blame game to anyone they can at the moment: - EU procurement for ventilators. UK response was no, we're not part of the EU. Then it changed to we made a mistake internally and didn't see it. Then changed to admitting a mistake and will join it next time. - Lack of testing. UK response was lack of the compound needed to identify the virus. Then it changed to Public Health England's fault. (Why couldn't they step in before? After all, they're the ones in charge here. Better decision making should have happened) - Lack of PPE. UK response was we're getting more. Then it's a global shortage. We missed the EU procurement again which is now being delivered. Front line workers are now dying, but the government is "Sorry if you feel that way". We had the opportunity to be ahead of the game, we had direct models of what did work in Germany & South Korea, and models that didn't work in Italy & Spain. Which one did we choose? Unfortunately, we've been generally pretty reactive, rather than pro-active. It’s not really the time for point scoring on this awful government but I just hope that when the day of reckoning comes the likes of Patel are held to account for this total disaster. No doubt they will blame Corbyn for putting them in to bat for another 5 years, seeing as even by their standards blaming the last Labour government will be a bit of a reach some well over 10 years later (although it wouldn’t surprise me if they try and claim that it was Gordon Brown who ate the bat that sparked all this off). |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 18:06:20 GMT
I’ve donated, it’s harder not to really. A World War II veteran still leading by example. Also he says he’s doing another 100! Good luck to him. |
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Post by Gassy on Apr 14, 2020 19:58:46 GMT
For the governments sake, I hope you're right. Not that it makes much difference either way. However, I just feel they're laying on the blame game to anyone they can at the moment: - EU procurement for ventilators. UK response was no, we're not part of the EU. Then it changed to we made a mistake internally and didn't see it. Then changed to admitting a mistake and will join it next time. - Lack of testing. UK response was lack of the compound needed to identify the virus. Then it changed to Public Health England's fault. (Why couldn't they step in before? After all, they're the ones in charge here. Better decision making should have happened) - Lack of PPE. UK response was we're getting more. Then it's a global shortage. We missed the EU procurement again which is now being delivered. Front line workers are now dying, but the government is "Sorry if you feel that way". We had the opportunity to be ahead of the game, we had direct models of what did work in Germany & South Korea, and models that didn't work in Italy & Spain. Which one did we choose? Unfortunately, we've been generally pretty reactive, rather than pro-active. but I just hope that when the day of reckoning comes the likes of Patel are held to account for this total disaster. No doubt they will blame Corbyn for putting them in to bat for another 5 years, seeing as even by their standards blaming the last Labour government will be a bit of a reach some well over 10 years later (although it wouldn’t surprise me if they try and claim that it was Gordon Brown who ate the bat that sparked all this off). You're right. Tbf, I tried for a while to stand up for them in hope the decisions we had made would somehow turn out to be the right ones. Unfortunately it all fell apart for me when Priti Patel came out and said "I'm sorry if you feel that way". Tories will be Tories. |
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Post by trevorgas on Apr 14, 2020 21:43:06 GMT
It’s not really the time for point scoring on this awful government but I just hope that when the day of reckoning comes the likes of Patel are held to account for this total disaster. No doubt they will blame Corbyn for putting them in to bat for another 5 years, seeing as even by their standards blaming the last Labour government will be a bit of a reach some well over 10 years later (although it wouldn’t surprise me if they try and claim that it was Gordon Brown who ate the bat that sparked all this off). You're right. Tbf, I tried for a while to stand up for them in hope the decisions we had made would somehow turn out to be the right ones. Unfortunately it all fell apart for me when Priti Patel came out and said "I'm sorry if you feel that way". Tories will be Tories. It's a bit trite to start laying blame for all this at the government's door as it's more or less the same across the World. Do you honestly believe people get up in the morning to do things that make this situation worse,wait until it's manageable then have a calm hard look at each Country, what they did how they did it,demographics,population density,contrasting health systems etc etc ,then decide what we have to learn going forward to ensure we have better outcomes next time. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 14, 2020 22:23:13 GMT
Anyone listening to Trump at the moment? Wow! All WHO's fault.
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