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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 7, 2020 19:03:00 GMT
Grown ups starting to come out against Trump. "The one word I have to use with respect to what he's been doing for the last several years is the word I would never have used before, never would have used with any of the four presidents I worked for, he lies," said Mr Powell. Also, Jim Mattis: "Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people - does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us," Mr Mattis wrote in The Atlantic magazine. news.sky.com/story/colin-powell-calls-donald-trump-a-liar-and-says-he-will-vote-for-joe-biden-12002425 |
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Jun 7, 2020 19:08:31 GMT
No its not that's only your opinion and that doesn't make it true As for Churchill I could easily argue that only WW2 redeemed him in anyway whatsoever,his disaster at Gallipoli, his treatment of the South Wales Miners,him Stalin and Roosevelt carving up Central Europe and condemning millions to oppression and state murder for decades for starters.      |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 19:11:36 GMT
Terrifying that our current gov model themselves on these conservative views. Labour have done terrible things, but Johnson would spaff his pants to emulate Churchill. |
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Jun 7, 2020 19:25:10 GMT
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Post by Big Jock on Jun 7, 2020 19:41:54 GMT
I think th question is....
Should we judge historical figures by the standards of our time?
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 7, 2020 19:59:55 GMT
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Post by inee on Jun 7, 2020 20:03:24 GMT
From before the romans arrived, in anglo saxon times many men women and children were captured by Norse-Irish traders and sold on mainly in ireland and other countries, after it was stopped the norse/irish traders invited many aboard ship only to set sail back to the irish slave markets, don't forget people who were press ganged later. Also many children rounded up in london and sent to australia along with many young prostitutes, many press-ganged into service, george washinton had a few white slaves Look it up as there's a lot about it but why is this never taught. Wasn't Lundy a Barbary Pirate base as recent as the 1630s and it took the fledgling US Navy in the early 1800s to finally defeat them? Not sure but i'll have a look, cheers fer the info |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 20:19:06 GMT
I think th question is.... Should we judge historical figures by the standards of our time? Good question, would be a great debate. Dont think the answer is that black and white though. |
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Post by mariobalotelli on Jun 7, 2020 20:28:01 GMT
It's just been pulled down. I for one hope it gets put back up. No one learns from history by trying to hide it. No one learns history from a statue. Should have been pulled down ages ago. Do not need a statue glorifying a slave trader in 2020. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 7, 2020 20:29:45 GMT
I think th question is.... Should we judge historical figures by the standards of our time? Good question, would be a great debate. Dont think the answer is that black and white though. We are talking about human beings and as such they are flawed with both good and bad traits. Historical figures should be seen in the round, compared both with their peers and by today's standards to keep things within context. To condense a lifetime into a few sound bites does neither the subject, author or reader any favours. History should be read more widely and from different sources whilst keeping in mind any bias. |
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Post by peterparker on Jun 7, 2020 20:40:13 GMT
It's just been pulled down. I for one hope it gets put back up. No one learns from history by trying to hide it. No one learns history from a statue. Should have been pulled down ages ago. Do not need a statue glorifying a slave trader in 2020. Maybe not, but doesnt make today right. Why didnt people pull it down 6 months ago? 12 months? 5 years? Or didnt enough people care or couldnt be bothered to organise themselves to do it. Today was an excuse to do it and to 'hide' behind something and has now robbed the significance of its removal whenever that may have been |
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 7, 2020 20:56:38 GMT
I think th question is.... Should we judge historical figures by the standards of our time? The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 20:58:04 GMT
Good question, would be a great debate. Dont think the answer is that black and white though. We are talking about human beings and as such they are flawed with both good and bad traits. Historical figures should be seen in the round, compared both with their peers and by today's standards to keep things within context. To condense a lifetime into a few sound bites does neither the subject, author or reader any favours. History should be read more widely and from different sources whilst keeping in mind any bias. Well put |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 21:00:02 GMT
No one learns history from a statue. Should have been pulled down ages ago. Do not need a statue glorifying a slave trader in 2020. Maybe not, but doesnt make today right. Why didnt people pull it down 6 months ago? 12 months? 5 years? Or didnt enough people care or couldnt be bothered to organise themselves to do it. Today was an excuse to do it and to 'hide' behind something and has now robbed the significance of its removal whenever that may have been Excellent point that. “Why now” indeed.... |
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 7, 2020 21:44:21 GMT
Good question, would be a great debate. Dont think the answer is that black and white though. We are talking about human beings and as such they are flawed with both good and bad traits. Historical figures should be seen in the round, compared both with their peers and by today's standards to keep things within context. To condense a lifetime into a few sound bites does neither the subject, author or reader any favours. History should be read more widely and from different sources whilst keeping in mind any bias. Agree Stuart,let's not forget that Colston lived 300 years ago and was a man of his time: Children executed for minor offences. Life expectancy no more than 30 to 40. Poverty on a scale we cannot comprehend No universal suffrage No cure for many common illnesses Etc etc. It's easy for us to look back at Colston and his contemporaries from our very different world and criticise with no understanding of what it was like to walk in their shoes. I am 100 % sure that future generations will look at us and level criticism for many of the things that have happened on our watch. |
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Post by Somersetgas on Jun 7, 2020 22:04:53 GMT
It's just been pulled down. I for one hope it gets put back up. No one learns from history by trying to hide it. No one learns history from a statue. Should have been pulled down ages ago. Do not need a statue glorifying a slave trader in 2020. Could not of put it any simpler and better myself. |
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Post by aghast on Jun 7, 2020 22:33:34 GMT
No one learns history from a statue. Should have been pulled down ages ago. Do not need a statue glorifying a slave trader in 2020. Maybe not, but doesnt make today right. Why didnt people pull it down 6 months ago? 12 months? 5 years? Or didnt enough people care or couldnt be bothered to organise themselves to do it. Today was an excuse to do it and to 'hide' behind something and has now robbed the significance of its removal whenever that may have been Not sure that's fair. Many have been calling for it to be moved for years. It's not about not caring. They had no way of doing it. I don't support the way it was done today, but a lot of people have wanted it gone for a long time. I think a prominent site in the museum would be the right place for the statue. Reflecting his historical importance but taking his effigy away from the modern world, which he is most definitely not a part of. |
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Post by peterparker on Jun 8, 2020 5:34:52 GMT
Maybe not, but doesnt make today right. Why didnt people pull it down 6 months ago? 12 months? 5 years? Or didnt enough people care or couldnt be bothered to organise themselves to do it. Today was an excuse to do it and to 'hide' behind something and has now robbed the significance of its removal whenever that may have been Not sure that's fair. Many have been calling for it to be moved for years. It's not about not caring. They had no way of doing it. I don't support the way it was done today, but a lot of people have wanted it gone for a long time. I think a prominent site in the museum would be the right place for the statue. Reflecting his historical importance but taking his effigy away from the modern world, which he is most definitely not a part of. Dont care is the wrong word, but kind of my point though. Yesterday it was done simply because of opportunity and to hide behind a protest. The statue was out in the open. Only would have taken a few people to do it at any point in time to 'make a statement' BLM organisers have said it was nothing to do with them and will be issuing a further statement today The statue would have been removed eventually, maybe the latest protests around the world would have been the catalyst, but now any such moment has lost any symbolism or significance People may remember the moment, but more importantly for what reasons will they remember it |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jun 8, 2020 6:48:48 GMT
Maybe not, but doesnt make today right. Why didnt people pull it down 6 months ago? 12 months? 5 years? Or didnt enough people care or couldnt be bothered to organise themselves to do it. Today was an excuse to do it and to 'hide' behind something and has now robbed the significance of its removal whenever that may have been Excellent point that. “Why now” indeed.... A better question would be "Why not before now?" |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 7:06:16 GMT
Get the impression (not entirely from here) that a lot of white people feel personally attacked by the protests & removal of the statue.
That is totally ridiculous in my view, but can see the hatred being whipped up by certain politicians and their advisor. Going to be an interesting period in time, hope people can keep their heads, but judging by recent events... Oh boy.
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