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Post by althepirate on Jun 8, 2020 10:03:32 GMT
Get the impression (not entirely from here) that a lot of white people feel personally attacked by the protests & removal of the statue. That is totally ridiculous in my view, but can see the hatred being whipped up by certain politicians and their advisor. Going to be an interesting period in time, hope people can keep their heads, but judging by recent events... Oh boy. Well I should imagine the adrenalin is still buzzing in the bodies of a tiny minority of young vandals yesterday and in a few days when it subsides they will realise they will have lost a lot of support and sympathy from the general populus. Still as always they act in an undemocratic way and that's why they always lose the bigger argument. There is plenty of room in this country to express ourselves within the law and that will get more support because the majority in the world believe protesting about what happened in America is a just cause. By resulting to breaking the law there is a danger they will lose that majority and as usual the extremists will reduce the chances of winning that just cause. Will they ever learn? Deny the fact that Trump and Johnson is in power and this is why they are. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 10:03:34 GMT
I don’t know, the beliefs of a crowd are easily controlled and manipulated by persuasive techniques that are very easy to research and very easy to learn, so I wouldn’t put any store by what the majority of the day think is right and wrong. I think that’s why I find myself unpopular on many forums because my first instinct is to argue the opposite view to the crowd (which is usually fuelled by emotion- the best weapon a manipulator has in their arsenal). Of course, the act of taking someone from their culture against their wishes to a foreign land and making them serve an “owner” whilst profiting from it should of course be “wrong” in any context of history but I still stand by the general point that this was actually legal in it’s time so it has to be framed in it’s historical context as a judgement of the era rather than the acts of one man. A man who was considered respectable enough by the general populace to represent Bristol as an MP no less. I agree it can be complex, but just because it was legal - still doesn't make it right. Was it therefore right that women shouldn't have voted? The list can go on and on, as you can imagine. If our generation is deemed to be evil in 100 years because of social norms at the time, then good - I hope the society they'll be living in will be better than the one we're living in now. Viewing morality through the lens of history is an exact science and on the surface of it very easy. Let’s put it another way: how do you think history will view the lockdown? Will we all look back and wonder why we bothered? If there is a second spike in infections in 3 weeks and 1,000s of people die who can be linked to the protests will you change your opinion and admit that you were wrong to support the protests? |
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 8, 2020 10:13:21 GMT
Let's hope I articulate this in the right way. One of the most significant symbols of the Holocaust is the preservation of Bergen Belsen, for the many thousands of people from the Jewish community who visit it must be the most excruciating experience imaginable but they do it to teach history and to ensure it never happens again and I have nothing but admiration for the way they engage with the challenges that period of history must present to them. So like Colstons statue Belsen is an affront to humanity so should it suffer the same fate? My preferred way is to have this out in the open to be explained, debated and to educate not to sit in a museum however,it's a matter of choice I guess. True But if Jews wanted to burn it down in disgust, would they be wrong? The point being it's for those that suffered to decide that not, as in our case, white Bristolians. On the point about slavery being legal during Colston's time. It's not a valid point. Look at the constituent make up of our legislature at the time, there was no universal suffrage, Parliament was made up of people who had the most to gain. They set laws accordingly. No they wouldn't for me it's a shining example of how to move forward in a way that educates and prevents. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 10:16:24 GMT
Let's hope I articulate this in the right way. One of the most significant symbols of the Holocaust is the preservation of Bergen Belsen, for the many thousands of people from the Jewish community who visit it must be the most excruciating experience imaginable but they do it to teach history and to ensure it never happens again and I have nothing but admiration for the way they engage with the challenges that period of history must present to them. So like Colstons statue Belsen is an affront to humanity so should it suffer the same fate? My preferred way is to have this out in the open to be explained, debated and to educate not to sit in a museum however,it's a matter of choice I guess. True But if Jews wanted to burn it down in disgust, would they be wrong? The point being it's for those that suffered to decide that not, as in our case, white Bristolians. On the point about slavery being legal during Colston's time. It's not a valid point. Look at the constituent make up of our legislature at the time, there was no universal suffrage, Parliament was made up of people who had the most to gain. They set laws accordingly. It was a white crowd that pulled the statue down Oldie. |
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Post by Gassy on Jun 8, 2020 10:17:11 GMT
I agree it can be complex, but just because it was legal - still doesn't make it right. Was it therefore right that women shouldn't have voted? The list can go on and on, as you can imagine. If our generation is deemed to be evil in 100 years because of social norms at the time, then good - I hope the society they'll be living in will be better than the one we're living in now. Viewing morality through the lens of history is an exact science and on the surface of it very easy. Let’s put it another way: how do you think history will view the lockdown? Will we all look back and wonder why we bothered? If there is a second spike in infections in 3 weeks and 1,000s of people die who can be linked to the protests will you change your opinion and admit that you were wrong to support the protests? I don’t know how they’ll view it. They’ll know more when we have the benefit of hindsight. Your hypothetical situation is impossible to prove if it was from protesting, so it doesn’t really matter within reason. We have 8-9 million people from BAME backgrounds who all face racism I’d expect daily. If their right to protest for equal opportunities caused the death of 1000 people, who is worse affected? 1000 people dead or 8m living through racism? Would I change my opinion? Probably not. Can you lavish me for it? If you want, as is your right. Supporting a protest and actually going to one are also different things. If history defines me as evil for supporting a anti-racism protest then so be it - I am guilty on all charges. I throw it back to you, if (or more likely when) the 2nd wave comes back and they prove that it wasn’t only because of the protest, would you admit you were wrong not to condemn an anti-racism protest? |
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Post by gregsy on Jun 8, 2020 10:24:35 GMT
I think what they should do is get it out of the water and put it on display at the M-Shed, with captions informing people who Colston was in relation to the slave trade, the relevance it has to the City of Bristol and explaining when it was taken down and what those protestors were protesting about. To me that strikes a good balance of informing people of Bristol's role in the slave trade, preserving the cities history but at the same time not having statues in the streets dedicated to people that profited from slavery. I certainly don't condone vandalism of public property but the statue had to be taken down at some point. Just thought I'd bring this post up because logically its the way we all need to approach this situation.... With ideas.... Good work axegas.... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 10:28:30 GMT
True But if Jews wanted to burn it down in disgust, would they be wrong? The point being it's for those that suffered to decide that not, as in our case, white Bristolians. On the point about slavery being legal during Colston's time. It's not a valid point. Look at the constituent make up of our legislature at the time, there was no universal suffrage, Parliament was made up of people who had the most to gain. They set laws accordingly. It was a white crowd that pulled the statue down Oldie. I understand that this is the counter narrative. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 10:29:10 GMT
Get the impression (not entirely from here) that a lot of white people feel personally attacked by the protests & removal of the statue. That is totally ridiculous in my view, but can see the hatred being whipped up by certain politicians and their advisor. Going to be an interesting period in time, hope people can keep their heads, but judging by recent events... Oh boy. Well I should imagine the adrenalin is still buzzing in the bodies of a tiny minority of young vandals yesterday and in a few days when it subsides they will realise they will have lost a lot of support and sympathy from the general populus. Still as always they act in an undemocratic way and that's why they always lose the bigger argument. There is plenty of room in this country to express ourselves within the law and that will get more support because the majority in the world believe protesting about what happened in America is a just cause. By resulting to breaking the law there is a danger they will lose that majority and as usual the extremists will reduce the chances of winning that just cause. Will they ever learn? Deny the fact that Trump and Johnson is in power and this is why they are. Think you summed that up excellently from your demographics point of view. Unfortunately when the current system is failing certain minorities, retaliation to that system is going to happen eventually. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Jun 8, 2020 10:29:33 GMT
True But if Jews wanted to burn it down in disgust, would they be wrong? The point being it's for those that suffered to decide that not, as in our case, white Bristolians. On the point about slavery being legal during Colston's time. It's not a valid point. Look at the constituent make up of our legislature at the time, there was no universal suffrage, Parliament was made up of people who had the most to gain. They set laws accordingly. It was a white crowd that pulled the statue down Oldie. I'm going to challenge this. The crowd was a fair demographic representation of the community as far as I could tell. Of the 4? That rolled the statue for example, 3 white and 1 black. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 10:33:30 GMT
Viewing morality through the lens of history is an exact science and on the surface of it very easy. Let’s put it another way: how do you think history will view the lockdown? Will we all look back and wonder why we bothered? If there is a second spike in infections in 3 weeks and 1,000s of people die who can be linked to the protests will you change your opinion and admit that you were wrong to support the protests? I don’t know how they’ll view it. They’ll know more when we have the benefit of hindsight. Your hypothetical situation is impossible to prove if it was from protesting, so it doesn’t really matter within reason. We have 8-9 million people from BAME backgrounds who all face racism I’d expect daily. If their right to protest for equal opportunities caused the death of 1000 people, who is worse affected? 1000 people dead or 8m living through racism? Would I change my opinion? Probably not. Can you lavish me for it? If you want, as is your right. Supporting a protest and actually going to one are also different things. If history defines me as evil for supporting a anti-racism protest then so be it - I am guilty on all charges. I throw it back to you, if (or more likely when) the 2nd wave comes back and they prove that it wasn’t only because of the protest, would you admit you were wrong not to condemn an anti-racism protest? That’s kind of my point- you won’t change your mind in hindsight because you went with the perceived wisdom of the time and stand by it. Others who lose loved ones might think you were wrong to do so. History in context being easier to condemn in hindsight etc.... To answer your question I would think it would be very easy to figure out which deaths are attributable to the protests as we have had a week of sh** weather so no-one is at the beaches, if from 3 weeks from now the r number and deaths in areas where there were large protest crowds that weren’t socially distancing (London, Bristol and Manchester in particular) it’s going to be very hard to put those numbers down to people enjoying the non-existent sun. For my part if there is no spike I will say that it was obviously fine to have the protests but it won’t change my mindset from the time that, to me, life in the here and now is sacrosanct and that if having the protests at a later date *could* save lives that was what should have happened. Protests can be re-scheduled and change can still come of it, death doesn’t care about protests or the colour of your skin. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 10:37:11 GMT
It was a white crowd that pulled the statue down Oldie. I'm going to challenge this. The crowd was a fair demographic representation of the community as far as I could tell. Of the 4? That rolled the statue for example, 3 white and 1 black. Oldie specifically said it wasn’t the preserve of white Bristolians (were they even Bristolian?) to decide- so 3 white and 1 black is white people deciding for themselves |
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Post by Dirt Dogg on Jun 8, 2020 10:39:16 GMT
Every time I go past the bust of Alfred Fagon at the corner of Ashley Road, I feel sick.
This statue is a personal affront to my heritage.
I'm thinking of throwing a rope around it, pulling it down and chucking it in the harbour.
Will the police be ok with this?
No as he wasn’t a mass murdering slave trader. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 10:45:59 GMT
I'm going to challenge this. The crowd was a fair demographic representation of the community as far as I could tell. Of the 4? That rolled the statue for example, 3 white and 1 black. Oldie specifically said it wasn’t the preserve of white Bristolians (were they even Bristolian?) to decide- so 3 white and 1 black is white people deciding for themselves But it is the preserve of anyone to support a cause if they find it just. Talking with people in the States yesterday one thing we agreed upon is that the ethnic diversity of people taking part in these protests is far greater than at anytime in history that we could recall. |
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Post by mariobalotelli on Jun 8, 2020 10:48:16 GMT
No one learns history from a statue. Should have been pulled down ages ago. Do not need a statue glorifying a slave trader in 2020. Maybe not, but doesnt make today right. Why didnt people pull it down 6 months ago? 12 months? 5 years? Or didnt enough people care or couldnt be bothered to organise themselves to do it. Today was an excuse to do it and to 'hide' behind something and has now robbed the significance of its removal whenever that may have been People have petitioned to have it taken down for years. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 10:50:16 GMT
Oldie specifically said it wasn’t the preserve of white Bristolians (were they even Bristolian?) to decide- so 3 white and 1 black is white people deciding for themselves But it is the preserve of anyone to support a cause if they find it just. Talking with people in the States yesterday one thing we agreed upon is that the ethnic diversity of people taking part in these protests is far greater than at anytime in history that we could recall. I wouldn’t disagree with that, I was just answering your point about how it’s for black people to decide, which I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with. I mean, I disagree with the vandalism for the reasons others have stated but if it has to come down then I agree with what you say, it should be black Bristolians who take it down. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 10:50:47 GMT
Maybe not, but doesnt make today right. Why didnt people pull it down 6 months ago? 12 months? 5 years? Or didnt enough people care or couldnt be bothered to organise themselves to do it. Today was an excuse to do it and to 'hide' behind something and has now robbed the significance of its removal whenever that may have been People have petitioned to have it taken down for years. What were the reasons given why it wasn’t, out of interest? |
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Post by ollyway on Jun 8, 2020 11:14:44 GMT
The last time I checked, this country was still a democracy.
What gives black, white or polka dot louts the right to commit acts of vandalism?
This lot need to be very careful. They may regret what they've done (if they have more than a few brain cells to be able to reason)
There are thousands of people who disagree strongly with their actions, and there may be a backlash
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 8, 2020 11:15:29 GMT
People have petitioned to have it taken down for years. What were the reasons given why it wasn’t, out of interest? It was decided to put up another plaque to clarify things instead. The council couldn't agree wordings. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 8, 2020 11:18:00 GMT
People have petitioned to have it taken down for years. What were the reasons given why it wasn’t, out of interest? It was decided to put up another plaque to clarify things instead. The council couldn't agree wordings. I'd recommend reading this Twitter thread as the wordings were, well, I'll let you all decide. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 8, 2020 11:21:13 GMT
Kate Williams has done another history thread for anyone interested. Bit of background.
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