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Post by William Wilson on Jun 9, 2020 8:42:54 GMT
It's a fascinating subject, almost unanswerable. Both men did terrible things that they thought were right to do in order to rule an empire. I think they are both examples of the horror of perceived absolute power. You can see it today in the USA and China, both mega states point the finger at each other for committing atrocities, when in fact they are equally complicit. Looking in to the past at churchill and stalin is difficult as it is, because so much propaganda was written by both sides to curry favour with their populations, people have to consider that to even begin assessing history. To understand history you have to look at facts,corroborated evidence,read widely and try to view the context and time of events that occurred. I would argue that Churchill never had absolute power,there were the balance and checks of a democratic country,even during the the War years government was by coalition. As I have said in previous posts and so have others he was a flawed individual racked with sentimentality and depression however,the evidence is clear that Stalin was a brutal dictator where disagreements were settled by imprisonment or death. To get some idea of life under Stalin, read Julian Barnes `s book, "The noise of time." Brilliantly captures the evil insanity that he presided over. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 9, 2020 8:44:20 GMT
Politics is horseshoe shaped, far left and far right are closer than they would admit. Surely even attempting to give politics a shape or define everyone as left / centre / right is futile? Not people per se, but ideas and deeds. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 9, 2020 8:49:08 GMT
I know right? If the extreme left wing honestly think our elected representatives wield absolute power and that comparisons between Stalin and Churchill are appropriate I really worry about the future of this country. The hard left, it turns out, is just as scary as the hard right. Talking about power in the philosophical sense... Foucault etc... stalin and churchill killed many people in the quest to grow and maintain an empire, you can't disagree with that. Can you put some numbers, in context of the circumstances, on that? I'll give you the Bengal famine with the redirection of supplies from Australia, what else? How does that compare with those of Stalin? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 8:49:41 GMT
You make it sound like people wanted to protest, they didn't choose to, they are compelled by the actions of a racist police state. Maybe because you lack empathy, you can't observe what is happening from their point of view? Maybe to some people systematic police violence on a minority is more of an issue than a virus? Compelled by the actions of a police state? Really? It looked to me as though there were loads of right on hipster types who would jump all over any protest in their constant desire for civil unrest. It would be interesting to know the split between those with a genuine grievance and those who were jumping on the bandwagon. In America or here? |
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Post by warehamgas on Jun 9, 2020 8:52:58 GMT
Out of interest I would like to ask a question. In recent times, a public hatred towards Winston Churchill, largely from the younger population has arisen. A common way to put this down is "you would be speaking German if it wasn't for Churchill!" This is used as an attempt to fully delegitimise huge, valid criticisms of Churchill. However, Joseph Stalin is commonly thought of as a "crazed communist who was against free speech and killed tens of millions." But is the exact same not true for him? I think it's safe to say that Stalin had more of an impact on the overall outcome of the war than Churchill. So my point is thus, why is one idolised and criticism of him is suppressed, and the other is tarnished? The actions of both resulted in the deaths of millions, both held abhorrent views towards certain ethnic minorities. Should both not be seen in the same spotlight? Whatever that is. No. It’s certainly not a fact and therefore not safe to say. It’s merely your opinion which you are entitled to. The Russian-German pact from 1939-41 allowed Germany to overrun Europe and any British or Europeans killed in that time were due to the fact that Hitler was only fighting on one front, hence his ability to do what he did in that time. And I don’t think Stalin is “idolised” now, since the 70s there’s been a big revision in opinion about him. Perhaps it’s more to the idea of in this country we do have “free” speech whereas in Russia for much of the time since 1945 “free” speech was not allowed. UTG! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 8:53:37 GMT
That public vote really annoyed me.... George Orwell, the man who was interested about, and documented the 'ordinary man' didn't even make the 100, whilst 'big brother', 'room 101', and the term 'Orwellian' were being branded about in British culture.... Just shows that there's a distinct difference between what people think they know, and what they actually know.... Its alright though, David Beckham was 33'rd.... Alan Turing won the greatest person of the 20th century so there is some slight hope for humanity yet.... Yet in post war Britain, this great country, he was charged and convicted for homosexuality and chemically neutered. Super |
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 9, 2020 8:56:04 GMT
Talking about power in the philosophical sense... Foucault etc... stalin and churchill killed many people in the quest to grow and maintain an empire, you can't disagree with that. Can you put some numbers, in context of the circumstances, on that? I'll give you the Bengal famine with the redirection of supplies from Australia, what else? How does that compare with those of Stalin? Difficult I would think in a closed Country like Russia and the post war Eastern bloc. However,the late 20s and 30s were full of purges particularly in the Army and other post Tsarist establishments,i guess we will never know. |
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Post by warehamgas on Jun 9, 2020 8:57:47 GMT
I know right? If the extreme left wing honestly think our elected representatives wield absolute power and that comparisons between Stalin and Churchill are appropriate I really worry about the future of this country. The hard left, it turns out, is just as scary as the hard right. Politics is horseshoe shaped, far left and far right are closer than they would admit. Good one stuart. That is exactly how I was taught to see it throughout school and university and my experience of the last 40 years has shown it to be largely true. UTG! |
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 9, 2020 8:59:07 GMT
Alan Turing won the greatest person of the 20th century so there is some slight hope for humanity yet.... Yet in post war Britain, this great country, he was charged and convicted for homosexuality and chemically neutered. Super Appalling,the film about Turing was in my view outstanding and if anyone deserves recognition it should be him. |
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Post by warehamgas on Jun 9, 2020 9:03:20 GMT
To understand history you have to look at facts,corroborated evidence,read widely and try to view the context and time of events that occurred. I would argue that Churchill never had absolute power,there were the balance and checks of a democratic country,even during the the War years government was by coalition. As I have said in previous posts and so have others he was a flawed individual racked with sentimentality and depression however,the evidence is clear that Stalin was a brutal dictator where disagreements were settled by imprisonment or death. To get some idea of life under Stalin, read Julian Barnes `s book, "The noise of time." Brilliantly captures the evil insanity that he presided over. Or even The Red Czar by Simon Sebag Montefiore. Stalin did bad things to his own family. People comparing the humanity of him and Churchill should perhaps have spent some time in the Russia of the 1930s. I suspect they would change their minds. UTG! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 9:03:57 GMT
Alan Turing won the greatest person of the 20th century so there is some slight hope for humanity yet.... Yet in post war Britain, this great country, he was charged and convicted for homosexuality and chemically neutered. Super That for sure is a stain on this country. That may yet be nothing compared to what happens in the future when the revisionists dig up some old tweets of his.... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 9:07:17 GMT
Yet in post war Britain, this great country, he was charged and convicted for homosexuality and chemically neutered. Super Appalling,the film about Turing was in my view outstanding and if anyone deserves recognition it should be him. Yet, when people talk about the inhumanity in other countries they never, ever, talk about what we did (do?) right here in the UK. The thing is, we only know about Turing because he was in well known and a bit of a war hero. Imagine the number of regular folks who suffered the same fate. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 9:08:22 GMT
Yet in post war Britain, this great country, he was charged and convicted for homosexuality and chemically neutered. Super Appalling,the film about Turing was in my view outstanding and if anyone deserves recognition it should be him. Which film, I think there is a couple? I watched the imitation game and it was bloody brilliant. Also Chris Packham’s eulogy of Turing caused a bit of dust to in go my eye. Damn that dusty air.... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 9:09:53 GMT
Yet in post war Britain, this great country, he was charged and convicted for homosexuality and chemically neutered. Super That for sure is a stain on this country. That may yet be nothing compared to what happens in the future when the revisionists dig up some old tweets of his.... Maybe you might want to mention all the innocent people hanged, or the children born out of wedlock, taken from the mother and despatched to Australia. Right up to 1970. This "stain" is getting very large |
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Post by althepirate on Jun 9, 2020 9:13:58 GMT
Compelled by the actions of a police state? Really? It looked to me as though there were loads of right on hipster types who would jump all over any protest in their constant desire for civil unrest. It would be interesting to know the split between those with a genuine grievance and those who were jumping on the bandwagon. In America or here? It was interesting to hear one of the organisers of Sundays 'event' say 'all hands were on the ropes, Asian, white and black' then in the next breath talk about 'racism in Britain'. Well how much more support does he want from white people in a protest headed BLACK lives matter? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 9:19:18 GMT
It was interesting to hear one of the organisers of Sundays 'event' say 'all hands were on the ropes, Asian, white and black' then in the next breath talk about 'racism in Britain'. Well how much more support does he want from white people in a protest headed BLACK lives matter? Morning Well yes,but I guess you could read that any way you want depending upon your viewpoint.😜😜 |
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 9, 2020 9:26:14 GMT
Appalling,the film about Turing was in my view outstanding and if anyone deserves recognition it should be him. Which film, I think there is a couple? I watched the imitation game and it was bloody brilliant. Also Chris Packham’s eulogy of Turing caused a bit of dust to in go my eye. Damn that dusty air.... The Imitation Game outstanding piece of work |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 9:37:32 GMT
That for sure is a stain on this country. That may yet be nothing compared to what happens in the future when the revisionists dig up some old tweets of his.... Maybe you might want to mention all the innocent people hanged, or the children born out of wedlock, taken from the mother and despatched to Australia. Right up to 1970. This "stain" is getting very large What am I supposed to actually do about it? Wear a hair shirt? If we turned this thread into a litany of bad sh** the U.K. has done to it’s own people and other countries we would be here all day- I think everyone on this thread appreciates that. The characterisation of Churchill as a flawed individual can (rather triplet I admit) he applied to Britain, as it could any other country in the world pretty much. We as humans are pre-disposed to subjugation when we have the power to realise it. Look at the capos in camps like Auschwitz, subjugated themselves but when given the opportunity eager to become “Uncle Toms” and subjugate their own. African dictators etc. Maybe we should turn it around and discuss instead how we in the U.K. have learnt from the errors of our ways? Does this country we live in today reflect the post war years? I’m listening to a history of the U.K. from 70-74 and it sounds like a different planet let alone a different country. Of course it’s not perfect, far from it. But we have improved immeasurably in our general tolerance of minorities and sexuality, better parenting, valuing children etc. We are a far more enlightened society in terms of our belief in other’s rights and freedoms. It is important to have a grasp of history, but I don’t think we need reminding of every detail of it like it’s a point scoring exercise. We know that a lot of bad sh** has happened. Do we see it in society today? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 9:40:48 GMT
Compelled by the actions of a police state? Really? It looked to me as though there were loads of right on hipster types who would jump all over any protest in their constant desire for civil unrest. It would be interesting to know the split between those with a genuine grievance and those who were jumping on the bandwagon. In America or here? The Bristol protest. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 9:43:32 GMT
Maybe you might want to mention all the innocent people hanged, or the children born out of wedlock, taken from the mother and despatched to Australia. Right up to 1970. This "stain" is getting very large What am I supposed to actually do about it? Wear a hair shirt? If we turned this thread into a litany of bad sh** the U.K. has done to it’s own people and other countries we would be here all day- I think everyone on this thread appreciates that. The characterisation of Churchill as a flawed individual can (rather triplet I admit) he applied to Britain, as it could any other country in the world pretty much. We as humans are pre-disposed to subjugation when we have the power to realise it. Look at the capos in camps like Auschwitz, subjugated themselves but when given the opportunity eager to become “Uncle Toms” and subjugate their own. African dictators etc. Maybe we should turn it around and discuss instead how we in the U.K. have learnt from the errors of our ways? Does this country we live in today reflect the post war years? I’m listening to a history of the U.K. from 70-74 and it sounds like a different planet let alone a different country. Of course it’s not perfect, far from it. But we have improved immeasurably in our general tolerance of minorities and sexuality, better parenting, valuing children etc. We are a far more enlightened society in terms of our belief in other’s rights and freedoms. It is important to have a grasp of history, but I don’t think we need reminding of every detail of it like it’s a point scoring exercise. We know that a lot of bad sh** has happened. Do we see it in society today? Absolutely correct. Now perhaps you can understand why some who were impacted by that history take to the streets when they witness the same sh** happening today...regardless of health constraints |
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