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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 21, 2020 11:55:55 GMT
Indeed. So in response to Bamber, mine was a broad stroke over the country where at the last census there appears to be a 80/20 White British / Ethnic Minority self identification. In Parliament it appears to be 90/10. Crude? Perhaps. Of course I accept the regional breakdown posted by Bamber (without checking but I have no reason to) but that doesn't change the overall picture. Developing Stuart's point on theory Vs reality I believe this is the crux of the matter, developing this beyond the confines of ethnic minorities. My opinion is that we have a deeply flawed democratic system. This has resulted in the creation of a "political class" where certain educational institutions and professions dominate both the members of our executive and the civil service. This in itself is an invisible barrier to ethnic minorities when you look at their representation at both those educational institutions and professions. Developing this point further there is also the issue over candidate selection by the political parties. Let me say at the outset that in my experience there is no barrier to anyone joining a party. It's the selection process for a candidate to stand that this invisible barrier kicks in. My personal experience, which may I add is now 22 years ago, was disheartening for someone who believes in local democracy and activism. Candidates are encouraged to come forward by the local party committee and subject to interview by that committee and a select group of members. On paper that sounds perfectly fine but the committees' tend to be populated by long term members of the party, some going back decades, who bring all their own ageing views which rarely reflect what is happening in their local communities. But then it gets worse, the candidate then has to be "approved" by the regional party with a designated point person to ensure the candidate will follow the party line. Like I said that was my experience but it was 22 years ago and perhaps things have improved / changed. However looking at the Tories, looking at the Stalinist attempt by the Labour Party under Corbyn to "vet" it's membership and elected representatives, I think not. In all this then I think it's fair to say ethnic minorities are under represented, that a significant proportion of the general population is under represented. Thankfully I don’t come on this part of the site very often. However, I feel you are being very economic with the facts to suit your agenda. Firstly, if you had really looked at the 2019 breakdown of white/ethnic minority split in the UK Overall the figures are 87.1%/12.9% so representation in Parliament is fairly equitable at around 10%. Where the whole representation figures for UK Government as a whole is blown apart is within The Scottish Assembly @ just 2% representation - Welsh Assembly 3% and the NI Assembly 0%. Further if you look at The London Assembly led by an ethnic minority Mayor the representation Is 28% of 25 members. Just a few figures for you to think about. My figures came from this article and I understand that in time, BAME will represent around 25% of the population. I would agree that other areas such as those you raised also need to do better. news.sky.com/story/general-election-2019-heralds-the-most-diverse-parliament-for-gender-and-ethnicity-11885529Having said that, the main point I was trying to make is that the opportunity is not there for people to stand as candidates with a realistic chance of being elected with a resulting feeling that parliament is not there for them. That applies to a lot of people, although this debate refers to a certain demographic. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 21, 2020 12:01:45 GMT
Maybe, that's the problem with social media, things can be badly written or misread, then before you know it things get conflated. What were we taught? Only about 7% of communication is the actual words used, the rest is body language and verbal tone. Neither of which can be understood on a forum. Hope you are feeling better, I presume the vet is happy. Not really Stuart. Still waiting for a letter from the hospital. As they didn't have a theatre slot available at the time I am now in the system. Meanwhile things can only get worse. Ho hum. Sorry to hear that, hope things speed up a bit and you get sorted. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2020 12:32:46 GMT
You've just described 'an old boys' club', you haven't given anything at all to even suggest racial discrimination specifically. Is there an appetite amongst the BAME community to engage with politics at a national level? This is an important point and goes back to the Scandinavian studies mentioned previously between us. The sort of social engineering that I think is being suggested here doesn't always give the results that you may expect. Yes, the 82/18 (2017 figures are the most recent I can find) split won't be reflected in Parliament, I don't think that we should be surprised by this, there's not much point putting forward a candidate with a passion for farming and rural issues in an inner city area with a high BAME population, hopefully you understand the point there. Roughly 8% of the UK population are EU migrants who are non-UK nationals, but whilst they are here this is their home, so what do we do with them, tell them that they've chosen to come here, sit down and shut up, or try to make the country as welcoming as possible for them, in which case, their views, to some extent, should be considered? No Bamber. It's much more insidious than to brush it off as the " Old Boys Club" This method of selection reinforces the established pre existing prejudices, whether they be racial, class, education or family background. Proof? Just look at what happened to the Jewish Community membership of the Labour Party under Corbyn. Those prejudices did not emerge from nowhere, they have been bubbling away forever in the Labour Party. Corbyn's leadership enabled those that held them, he didn't invent it. Taking Corbyn out of the spotlight do you think this has gone away? Do you think that these views are still not held by local party members? Do you think that local candidate selection is not then influenced? I highlight the Jewish case as it is the current most obvious example. There are equivalent claims of Islamaphobia amongst Tory Party members. So again, as Stuart so eloquently put, on paper our representative democracy is open to everyone, the reality on the ground is rather different. Hence why I believe ethnic minorities are under represented. I left in the line from the BBC on stats deliberately where it stated how things had improved from a representation of 1 in 40 a decade ago to 1 in 10 at the last election. Which rather backs up the point I make about my own experience of how bad it was. It's just that we still have a way to go. I have no idea what the views of Labour local party members are, a lot think we should leave the EU, any more than that, I can't really comment. I'm sure that claims have been made against Conservative Party members, as they are against people in public positions of all political persuasions, the claims in themselves amount to nothing, let's see where any accusations lead. Firstly, you've now moved away from just arguing for BAME representation to wanting all minority groups represented, this is going to be torturously difficult to implement, so good luck with that, and You've still not even begun to demonstrate that any of your scenario is actually played out in reality. For starters we need evidence that there is an appetite within the BAME community for following a career in national politics. Then you appear to be making the rather crass assumption that a black person would be happy to vote for a candidate based on skin colour alone rather than on the credibility of the candidate combined with the manifesto that they are standing on. So, and please correct me if I'm misunderstanding this, you think that a black voter will not vote for a more able white candidate standing on a preferred manifesto and would rather vote for a less able candidate standing on a manifesto that they disagree with? Or are you saying that white people should be excluded from standing in certain constituencies? I can't actually understand what you want. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2020 13:30:51 GMT
"
Then you appear to be making the rather crass assumption that a black person would be happy to vote for a candidate based on skin colour alone rather than on the credibility of the candidate combined with the manifesto that they are standing on. So, and please correct me if I'm misunderstanding this, you think that a black voter will not vote for a more able white candidate standing on a preferred manifesto and would rather vote for a less able candidate standing on a manifesto that they disagree with? Or are you saying that white people should be excluded from standing in certain constituencies? I can't actually understand what you want."
No Bamber
You are making it up.
I never assumed or said any of that. You are extrapolating something that is non existent in my comments.
To try and wrap this up, my view is that our elected representatives are NOT representative of too large a proportion of the views of the general population. Whether those views are informed by ethnicity, gender, education, or background.
My view is informed, as Jock so succinctly pointed out, by my own life experiences of living in three different continents, marrying a non White British, my commercial experience and as an elected representative.
I have tried to invoke outside (from my personal experience) information to back up my conclusion s. We could probably argue the stats until the cows come home.
We know each other from a while back but I literally have no idea what informs your viewpoint. But it doesn't matter, I am not chasing you around insisting you justify them on MY terms, am I.
So now I will stick to my original intent and not respond to you. In any event there are others on this forum, as you have discovered, who are far more articulate than I who argue a point better.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2020 13:54:48 GMT
" Then you appear to be making the rather crass assumption that a black person would be happy to vote for a candidate based on skin colour alone rather than on the credibility of the candidate combined with the manifesto that they are standing on. So, and please correct me if I'm misunderstanding this, you think that a black voter will not vote for a more able white candidate standing on a preferred manifesto and would rather vote for a less able candidate standing on a manifesto that they disagree with? Or are you saying that white people should be excluded from standing in certain constituencies? I can't actually understand what you want." No Bamber You are making it up. I never assumed or said any of that. You are extrapolating something that is non existent in my comments. To try and wrap this up, my view is that our elected representatives are NOT representative of too large a proportion of the views of the general population. Whether those views are informed by ethnicity, gender, education, or background. My view is informed, as Jock so succinctly pointed out, by my own life experiences of living in three different continents, marrying a non White British, my commercial experience and as an elected representative. I have tried to invoke outside (from my personal experience) information to back up my conclusion s. We could probably argue the stats until the cows come home. We know each other from a while back but I literally have no idea what informs your viewpoint. But it doesn't matter, I am not chasing you around insisting you justify them on MY terms, am I. So now I will stick to my original intent and not respond to you. In any event there are others on this forum, as you have discovered, who are far more articulate than I who argue a point better. Thanks for the reply. So, if I understand correctly, what you want are people who represent the views of minority groups? I agree, let's stand together and argue for a society that gives equality of opportunity for everybody. In which case, why are you saying we need more BAME MPs when all you want are people who, by whatever yardstick you are using, represent the interest of that group? Hopefully you can see why I'm confused. All I'm doing is trying to understand what you are arguing for, because it really isn't at all clear, so I set some goal posts, you've quite legitimately said that they are in the wrong place. Isn't that normal conversation? |
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 22, 2020 0:22:44 GMT
Anyone else find it ironic that the thing that the right are pointing out about the scum that committed the crime in Reading is the fact he's black and not his religious beliefs, shock horror it's because he's a Christian. I'm sure if it was a white Muslim they'd be back to calling for the ban of all mosques.
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Post by blueridge on Jun 22, 2020 4:40:01 GMT
Anyone else find it ironic that the thing that the right are pointing out about the scum that committed the crime in Reading is the fact he's black and not his religious beliefs, shock horror it's because he's a Christian. I'm sure if it was a white Muslim they'd be back to calling for the ban of all mosques. It is ironic - a black man’s attack on white people is not seen as racist - more terrorist. |
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 22, 2020 5:09:30 GMT
Anyone else find it ironic that the thing that the right are pointing out about the scum that committed the crime in Reading is the fact he's black and not his religious beliefs, shock horror it's because he's a Christian. I'm sure if it was a white Muslim they'd be back to calling for the ban of all mosques. It is ironic - a black man’s attack on white people is not seen as racist - more terrorist. Maybe because it's the exception and not the norm. Not to mention no actual evidence he did it because of race. Not surprised though, the right have consistently perpetuated a myth that the killer of Emily Jones wasn't white. Racial hate crimes/killings are almost exclusively towards non-white people. You completely ignored my point though. Despite it being actually the norm, I'd say the far-right but that's anything but the case at this point, there's been a myth perpetuated that the "Muslim grooming gang scandal" exists, when it doesn't. The entire supposed issue towards "grooming gangs" and "Islamic terrorists" (more exclusively, terrorism is explicitly caused by Islam) is entirely built on the availability heuristic, which in psychological terms is people overestimating the importance of information that is available to them, such as someone saying smoking is fine because they know someone whose smoked who's fine. Neither are issues and are perpetuated by people who almost always have never actually read the book. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 7:18:46 GMT
Surely no one would put a terrorist attack down to racism?
The same way UK bombs indiscriminately kill innocents in the middle East (Libya, Yemen, Syria,Iraq etc...), the same way a terrorist retaliates in the west?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 15:37:38 GMT
It is ironic - a black man’s attack on white people is not seen as racist - more terrorist. Maybe because it's the exception and not the norm. Not to mention no actual evidence he did it because of race. Not surprised though, the right have consistently perpetuated a myth that the killer of Emily Jones wasn't white. Racial hate crimes/killings are almost exclusively towards non-white people. You completely ignored my point though. Despite it being actually the norm, I'd say the far-right but that's anything but the case at this point, there's been a myth perpetuated that the "Muslim grooming gang scandal" exists, when it doesn't. The entire supposed issue towards "grooming gangs" and "Islamic terrorists" (more exclusively, terrorism is explicitly caused by Islam) is entirely built on the availability heuristic, which in psychological terms is people overestimating the importance of information that is available to them, such as someone saying smoking is fine because they know someone whose smoked who's fine. Neither are issues and are perpetuated by people who almost always have never actually read the book. Out of interest has any evidence come out yet regarding the motive for George Floyd’s murder or do we have to wait for the trial. Was that racially motivated do we know? I’ve no idea whether the cop was just an over aggressive thug or an over aggressive racist thug. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 16:39:51 GMT
Maybe because it's the exception and not the norm. Not to mention no actual evidence he did it because of race. Not surprised though, the right have consistently perpetuated a myth that the killer of Emily Jones wasn't white. Racial hate crimes/killings are almost exclusively towards non-white people. You completely ignored my point though. Despite it being actually the norm, I'd say the far-right but that's anything but the case at this point, there's been a myth perpetuated that the "Muslim grooming gang scandal" exists, when it doesn't. The entire supposed issue towards "grooming gangs" and "Islamic terrorists" (more exclusively, terrorism is explicitly caused by Islam) is entirely built on the availability heuristic, which in psychological terms is people overestimating the importance of information that is available to them, such as someone saying smoking is fine because they know someone whose smoked who's fine. Neither are issues and are perpetuated by people who almost always have never actually read the book. Out of interest has any evidence come out yet regarding the motive for George Floyd’s murder or do we have to wait for the trial. Was that racially motivated do we know? I’ve no idea whether the cop was just an over aggressive thug or an over aggressive racist thug. I would have thought that even a cursory moment of reflection would have allowed you to realise that what you are asking for is sub judice? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 18:22:56 GMT
Maybe because it's the exception and not the norm. Not to mention no actual evidence he did it because of race. Not surprised though, the right have consistently perpetuated a myth that the killer of Emily Jones wasn't white. Racial hate crimes/killings are almost exclusively towards non-white people. You completely ignored my point though. Despite it being actually the norm, I'd say the far-right but that's anything but the case at this point, there's been a myth perpetuated that the "Muslim grooming gang scandal" exists, when it doesn't. The entire supposed issue towards "grooming gangs" and "Islamic terrorists" (more exclusively, terrorism is explicitly caused by Islam) is entirely built on the availability heuristic, which in psychological terms is people overestimating the importance of information that is available to them, such as someone saying smoking is fine because they know someone whose smoked who's fine. Neither are issues and are perpetuated by people who almost always have never actually read the book. Out of interest has any evidence come out yet regarding the motive for George Floyd’s murder or do we have to wait for the trial. Was that racially motivated do we know? I’ve no idea whether the cop was just an over aggressive thug or an over aggressive racist thug. No. I posted a video a few pages back where a couple of black guys pointed out that for every type of black killing at the hands of police there is an identical killing of a white person at the hands of police, including 2 black cops who shot and killed a 6 year old autistic white boy. Was that a racist killing by a cop? The waters get so muddied that it starts to look like an issue with American cops in general where they have too much authority and too much weaponry and it’s a cocktail for disaster. It’s certainly made me ask the question more about whether George Floyd’s killing was racist or just the consequence of a power trip. I also question why the conduct of American police is being transposed to the U.K. in terms of statistical chance using a bit of fag packet maths there are roughly 600k of arrests a year in the U.K, so over a decade ~6 million arrests, of those ~6 mill *13* were black people who died in custody. 13 of ~6 million arrests and yet black people fear for their lives with British cops? Gimme a break, you’re more likely to be hit by a car, he’ll, hit by a flaming asteroid then you are to be killed by British Police. We might have an issue with systemic racism that black people are victims of the justice system more often and likely to suffer from poverty etc but to make an issue of Police brutality in this country, sheesh, this country has one of the softest police forces you will find in the world because we have decent human rights, on the whole. Don’t be making out that we are anywhere near as bad as America for brutality. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 21:52:25 GMT
Out of interest has any evidence come out yet regarding the motive for George Floyd’s murder or do we have to wait for the trial. Was that racially motivated do we know? I’ve no idea whether the cop was just an over aggressive thug or an over aggressive racist thug. No. I posted a video a few pages back where a couple of black guys pointed out that for every type of black killing at the hands of police there is an identical killing of a white person at the hands of police, including 2 black cops who shot and killed a 6 year old autistic white boy. Was that a racist killing by a cop? The waters get so muddied that it starts to look like an issue with American cops in general where they have too much authority and too much weaponry and it’s a cocktail for disaster. It’s certainly made me ask the question more about whether George Floyd’s killing was racist or just the consequence of a power trip. I also question why the conduct of American police is being transposed to the U.K. in terms of statistical chance using a bit of fag packet maths there are roughly 600k of arrests a year in the U.K, so over a decade ~6 million arrests, of those ~6 mill *13* were black people who died in custody. 13 of ~6 million arrests and yet black people fear for their lives with British cops? Gimme a break, you’re more likely to be hit by a car, he’ll, hit by a flaming asteroid then you are to be killed by British Police. We might have an issue with systemic racism that black people are victims of the justice system more often and likely to suffer from poverty etc but to make an issue of Police brutality in this country, sheesh, this country has one of the softest police forces you will find in the world because we have decent human rights, on the whole. Don’t be making out that we are anywhere near as bad as America for brutality. Is anyone doing that? The thing we have, just but still, is that our police, they police by consent. That's not the case in general in the USA. They police through power, which leads to this sort of incident. The statistical fact is that through the exercise of that power you are more likely to suffer from that if you are Afro American. To make it worse the courts there back that up. Sadly it appears that something similar happens here. Not to the same degree nor with the same extreme outcomes. But still. It's pretty poor to take probably the worst example amongst our peers and say "stop moaning, we are not as bad as them" Neither is acceptable. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 22:41:23 GMT
No. I posted a video a few pages back where a couple of black guys pointed out that for every type of black killing at the hands of police there is an identical killing of a white person at the hands of police, including 2 black cops who shot and killed a 6 year old autistic white boy. Was that a racist killing by a cop? The waters get so muddied that it starts to look like an issue with American cops in general where they have too much authority and too much weaponry and it’s a cocktail for disaster. It’s certainly made me ask the question more about whether George Floyd’s killing was racist or just the consequence of a power trip. I also question why the conduct of American police is being transposed to the U.K. in terms of statistical chance using a bit of fag packet maths there are roughly 600k of arrests a year in the U.K, so over a decade ~6 million arrests, of those ~6 mill *13* were black people who died in custody. 13 of ~6 million arrests and yet black people fear for their lives with British cops? Gimme a break, you’re more likely to be hit by a car, he’ll, hit by a flaming asteroid then you are to be killed by British Police. We might have an issue with systemic racism that black people are victims of the justice system more often and likely to suffer from poverty etc but to make an issue of Police brutality in this country, sheesh, this country has one of the softest police forces you will find in the world because we have decent human rights, on the whole. Don’t be making out that we are anywhere near as bad as America for brutality. Is anyone doing that? The thing we have, just but still, is that our police, they police by consent. That's not the case in general in the USA. They police through power, which leads to this sort of incident. The statistical fact is that through the exercise of that power you are more likely to suffer from that if you are Afro American. To make it worse the courts there back that up. Sadly it appears that something similar happens here. Not to the same degree nor with the same extreme outcomes. But still. It's pretty poor to take probably the worst example amongst our peers and say "stop moaning, we are not as bad as them" Neither is acceptable. With respect, I think they are! BLM complain in this country about police brutality. They aren’t explicit about which police they are referring to and I believe it behooves them to be because in this country the Police are social workers first and law enforcement second. I’m not complaining about that, in fact it should be acknowledged more by BLM that in this country you are ‘safe-er’ than a lot of other countries in the world. I get that you are statistically more likely blah blah blah. But Oldie you are talking about 13 deaths in 6 million, less than 1 freaking % of the population! Eg If less than 1% of the population demanded special rights no-one would listen because the percentage is so stupidly low as to be less than insignificant! That is not to say that the Police don’t have a duty to improve but I’m sorry, when you think of all the people they arrest (let’s take race out of it because it’s just effing ridiculous) a total of 140 odd deaths in 6 million suggests that people die in custody less than we see Halley’s Comet. It’s highly disingenuous for BLM to try and use the whole “as a proportion of the black population” bollocks with U.K. police because when you look at the big picture, ie number of deaths vs total arrests it makes them look extremely daft never mind when you factor in for race. Let’s at least be honest that we have decent regulations governing what the police can and can’t do. Go to eg Spain or Russia and see how venal the Police are there and then tell me about British police. One of the few things we have right over here is our Police’s respect of basic human rights. Edit: and of course, I’ll pay lip service that (let’s take race out of this because at such miniscule proportions it’s not helpful) ALL deaths in custody are not welcome in the slightest, but really, you are going to get deaths the more arrests you make. No system is going to be able to arrest that many people without a level of anomaly and so 140 deaths vs ~6 million arrests (the vast majority of arrests were white caucasian) seems like decent going for U.K. police imo. When BLM complain about police brutality here they are crying over spilt milk. |
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Post by Gassy on Jun 23, 2020 7:27:01 GMT
They're not demanding "special rights".
They're demanding equality.
365, you're not a fan of this government, right? If I told you "go to Russia or the US and see how the government is there, then tell me about the British government" - would you turn round and then say, yeah fair enough - good point?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 7:41:16 GMT
The white/all lives matter thing is confusing.
A bit like a perfectly healthy person asking the Make a Wish Foundation for a trip to Disney land, just because sick kids are getting some attention.
Black people are asking to be treated fairly and equally.
What are white people asking?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 8:22:49 GMT
The white/all lives matter thing is confusing. A bit like a perfectly healthy person asking the Make a Wish Foundation for a trip to Disney land, just because sick kids are getting some attention. Black people are asking to be treated fairly and equally. What are white people asking? Sadly I hear "Why?" in answer to your question in part as a denial that anything is wrong. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 8:43:15 GMT
The white/all lives matter thing is confusing. A bit like a perfectly healthy person asking the Make a Wish Foundation for a trip to Disney land, just because sick kids are getting some attention. Black people are asking to be treated fairly and equally. What are white people asking? Sadly I hear "Why?" in answer to your question in part as a denial that anything is wrong. So theoretically we are still in the first stage 😬, or maybe stage 1.5 denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 23, 2020 8:57:00 GMT
The white/all lives matter thing is confusing. A bit like a perfectly healthy person asking the Make a Wish Foundation for a trip to Disney land, just because sick kids are getting some attention. Black people are asking to be treated fairly and equally. What are white people asking? I guess it depends on which white person you are asking as I doubt there is a single reason. From my point of view I have no problem and understand where BLM comes from, although I'd suggest some could be from a concern they will be overlooked as consequence or that they are being grouped together with others who they also resent for socio-economic reasons. After all having things 'easier' doesn't mean life is 'easy'. The message has to be carefully managed otherwise we risk the flame being fanned by those with an ulterior motive and we end up with a deeper division. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 9:06:07 GMT
The white/all lives matter thing is confusing. A bit like a perfectly healthy person asking the Make a Wish Foundation for a trip to Disney land, just because sick kids are getting some attention. Black people are asking to be treated fairly and equally. What are white people asking? I guess it depends on which white person you are asking as I doubt there is a single reason. From my point of view I have no problem and understand where BLM comes from, although I'd suggest some could be from a concern they will be overlooked as consequence or that they are being grouped together with others who they also resent for socio-economic reasons. After all having things 'easier' doesn't mean life is 'easy'. The message has to be carefully managed otherwise we risk the flame being fanned by those with an ulterior motive and we end up with a deeper division. What do you think the ulterior motive might be Stuart. Interestingly I watched a programme on the Black Panthers last night and was pleasantly surprised to be reminded of how relatively moderate their demands were, how they were more political than just the Afro American issue. Could that be true now? |
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