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Post by Gassy on Jun 23, 2020 10:00:41 GMT
One point I think is really interesting, and I'd like to hear 365's opinion.
I was chatting with my family over the weekend and at one point the protests came up. We got talking about BLM and I posed the 365's statement that BLM wasn't a good slogan.
My brother made an excellent point and said, 'No - I think it's an excellent slogan. The phrase BLM has got more people talking about racism in their countries than any other slogan has in recent years, which is ultimately what we want. Companies & institutions across the globe are reviewing their processes and making statements on where they stand, so I'd say it's a great slogan"
Pretty fair point I think
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 23, 2020 10:05:01 GMT
I guess it depends on which white person you are asking as I doubt there is a single reason. From my point of view I have no problem and understand where BLM comes from, although I'd suggest some could be from a concern they will be overlooked as consequence or that they are being grouped together with others who they also resent for socio-economic reasons. After all having things 'easier' doesn't mean life is 'easy'. The message has to be carefully managed otherwise we risk the flame being fanned by those with an ulterior motive and we end up with a deeper division. What do you think the ulterior motive might be Stuart. Interestingly I watched a programme on the Black Panthers last night and was pleasantly surprised to be reminded of how relatively moderate their demands were, how they were more political than just the Afro American issue. Could that be true now? I mean the stoking up of resentment by the usually (though not exclusively) right wing elements leading to further misunderstanding and a rise in groups like the EDL or AfD. Preconceptions of special treatment of one group at the expense of another, whether justified or not. It's at times like these I think of my brother or a friend of mine I lost contact with a while back. My brother has a menial job, social housing, no qualifications, grew up in the 70s (fwiw) and sees Alf Garnet as a working class hero. My former friend was very bright, an IT expert on a very good salary. He made friends with a BNP supporter and changed into someone who actually used the phrase "I can justify my xenophobia and homophobia". |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 10:45:12 GMT
Honestly I'm not trolling you Oldie, some of these demands seem more than reasonable, others seem a bit extreme to me, I'm not sure you can say that this list is, in its entirety, 'relatively moderate'. Yes, I do understand that you've broadened things out beyond Afro American issues, but this is where they started from.
Black Panthers 10 point plan;
1. We Want Freedom. We Want Power To Determine The Destiny Of Our Black Community.
2. We Want Full Employment For Our People.
3. We Want An End To The Robbery By The Capitalists Of Our Black Community.
4. We Want Decent Housing Fit For The Shelter Of Human Beings.
5. We Want Education For Our People That Exposes The True Nature Of This Decadent American Society. We Want Education That Teaches Us Our True History And Our Role In The Present-Day Society.
6. We Want All Black Men To Be Exempt From Military Service.
7. We Want An Immediate End To Police Brutality And Murder Of Black People.
8. We Want Freedom For All Black Men Held In Federal, State, County And City Prisons And Jails.
9. We Want All Black People When Brought To Trial To Be Tried In Court By A Jury Of Their Peer Group Or People From Their Black Communities, As Defined By The Constitution Of The United States.
10.We Want Land, Bread, Housing, Education, Clothing, Justice And Peace.
They also viewed successful African Americans as oppressors of working class African Americans.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 10:45:16 GMT
One point I think is really interesting, and I'd like to hear 365's opinion. I was chatting with my family over the weekend and at one point the protests came up. We got talking about BLM and I posed the 365's statement that BLM wasn't a good slogan. My brother made an excellent point and said, 'No - I think it's an excellent slogan. The phrase BLM has got more people talking about racism in their countries than any other slogan has in recent years, which is ultimately what we want. Companies & institutions across the globe are reviewing their processes and making statements on where they stand, so I'd say it's a great slogan" Pretty fair point I think In terms of a slogan and bringing issues to a wide audience you can’t argue it has been a success. However, it is in danger of causing a lot resentment and worsening of divisions if not carefully managed. At the moment all I’m seeing is words from companies and ‘showing’ how strongly they support the message by putting BLM slogans and badges everywhere. The very aggressive, shouty types who thrust themselves to the forefront when a tv camera appears are not doing the organisation any favours. |
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Post by blueridge on Jun 23, 2020 11:20:07 GMT
A genuine question and not 'loaded' in any way. The USA had a black President for eight years - arguably the most powerful man in the world, did he even start any reforms, or leave a legacy for the country to build upon with regard to the black population? I'm struggling to think of anything.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 12:09:10 GMT
Honestly I'm not trolling you Oldie, some of these demands seem more than reasonable, others seem a bit extreme to me, I'm not sure you can say that this list is, in its entirety, 'relatively moderate'. Yes, I do understand that you've broadened things out beyond Afro American issues, but this is where they started from. Black Panthers 10 point plan; 1. We Want Freedom. We Want Power To Determine The Destiny Of Our Black Community. 2. We Want Full Employment For Our People. 3. We Want An End To The Robbery By The Capitalists Of Our Black Community. 4. We Want Decent Housing Fit For The Shelter Of Human Beings. 5. We Want Education For Our People That Exposes The True Nature Of This Decadent American Society. We Want Education That Teaches Us Our True History And Our Role In The Present-Day Society. 6. We Want All Black Men To Be Exempt From Military Service. 7. We Want An Immediate End To Police Brutality And Murder Of Black People. 8. We Want Freedom For All Black Men Held In Federal, State, County And City Prisons And Jails. 9. We Want All Black People When Brought To Trial To Be Tried In Court By A Jury Of Their Peer Group Or People From Their Black Communities, As Defined By The Constitution Of The United States. 10.We Want Land, Bread, Housing, Education, Clothing, Justice And Peace. They also viewed successful African Americans as oppressors of working class African Americans. No trolling, this has broadened out, let's put that sorry episode, consign it to history. When I made that comment partly because I was talking to the mirror. I had always assumed age had moderated me. I was surprised how moderate I found some of that list. Moderate given that they were fighting back against an, in effect, system of apartheid in many States. No, I don't agree with all of that list, some of them are silly and undoable in a representative democracy. Although I know they did not feel represented, rightly so. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 12:16:21 GMT
A genuine question and not 'loaded' in any way. The USA had a black President for eight years - arguably the most powerful man in the world, did he even start any reforms, or leave a legacy for the country to build upon with regard to the black population? I'm struggling to think of anything. Oh yes he did. If you allow yourself to think outside the confines of skin colour, the biggest issue facing the poorest in the States, was and is, health insurance. You have to also accept that the afro American ethnic group make up a disproportionate number of the poorest in the States. By bringing in State sponsored health insurance he provided for the poorest the most,without making it a black / white issue. It's taking a populist idiot like Trump to undo that, whilst causing the deaths of tens of thousands through utterly inept handling of the pandemic, like Bolsonaro in Brazil and our own resident idiot Johnson. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 12:18:29 GMT
One point I think is really interesting, and I'd like to hear 365's opinion. I was chatting with my family over the weekend and at one point the protests came up. We got talking about BLM and I posed the 365's statement that BLM wasn't a good slogan. My brother made an excellent point and said, 'No - I think it's an excellent slogan. The phrase BLM has got more people talking about racism in their countries than any other slogan has in recent years, which is ultimately what we want. Companies & institutions across the globe are reviewing their processes and making statements on where they stand, so I'd say it's a great slogan" Pretty fair point I think Spot on for me, but then I guess that surprises no one😂 |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 13:05:29 GMT
Honestly I'm not trolling you Oldie, some of these demands seem more than reasonable, others seem a bit extreme to me, I'm not sure you can say that this list is, in its entirety, 'relatively moderate'. Yes, I do understand that you've broadened things out beyond Afro American issues, but this is where they started from. Black Panthers 10 point plan; 1. We Want Freedom. We Want Power To Determine The Destiny Of Our Black Community. 2. We Want Full Employment For Our People. 3. We Want An End To The Robbery By The Capitalists Of Our Black Community. 4. We Want Decent Housing Fit For The Shelter Of Human Beings. 5. We Want Education For Our People That Exposes The True Nature Of This Decadent American Society. We Want Education That Teaches Us Our True History And Our Role In The Present-Day Society. 6. We Want All Black Men To Be Exempt From Military Service. 7. We Want An Immediate End To Police Brutality And Murder Of Black People. 8. We Want Freedom For All Black Men Held In Federal, State, County And City Prisons And Jails. 9. We Want All Black People When Brought To Trial To Be Tried In Court By A Jury Of Their Peer Group Or People From Their Black Communities, As Defined By The Constitution Of The United States. 10.We Want Land, Bread, Housing, Education, Clothing, Justice And Peace. They also viewed successful African Americans as oppressors of working class African Americans. No trolling, this has broadened out, let's put that sorry episode, consign it to history. When I made that comment partly because I was talking to the mirror. I had always assumed age had moderated me. I was surprised how moderate I found some of that list. Moderate given that they were fighting back against an, in effect, system of apartheid in many States. No, I don't agree with all of that list, some of them are silly and undoable in a representative democracy. Although I know they did not feel represented, rightly so. They probably didn't do themselves any favours mixing their core demands with what amounted to a Marxist agenda in 1960s America. Maybe they should have given that a bit more thought? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 13:16:36 GMT
No trolling, this has broadened out, let's put that sorry episode, consign it to history. When I made that comment partly because I was talking to the mirror. I had always assumed age had moderated me. I was surprised how moderate I found some of that list. Moderate given that they were fighting back against an, in effect, system of apartheid in many States. No, I don't agree with all of that list, some of them are silly and undoable in a representative democracy. Although I know they did not feel represented, rightly so. They probably didn't do themselves any favours mixing their core demands with what amounted to a Marxist agenda in 1960s America. Maybe they should have given that a bit more thought? Perhaps But in 1968, we were all up for the overthrow of the State, Danny the Red in Paris, Baader Meinhof in Germany, Tariq Ali here, Black Panthers, and of course white kids under the tutelage of Dr Timothy Leary. Ahhh....heady days. Nights in the Dug Out, Park St |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 13:23:12 GMT
A genuine question and not 'loaded' in any way. The USA had a black President for eight years - arguably the most powerful man in the world, did he even start any reforms, or leave a legacy for the country to build upon with regard to the black population? I'm struggling to think of anything. Because Obama was a neoliberal and therefore had no intention of disrupting the status quo. |
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Post by blueridge on Jun 23, 2020 13:23:48 GMT
A genuine question and not 'loaded' in any way. The USA had a black President for eight years - arguably the most powerful man in the world, did he even start any reforms, or leave a legacy for the country to build upon with regard to the black population? I'm struggling to think of anything. Oh yes he did. If you allow yourself to think outside the confines of skin colour, the biggest issue facing the poorest in the States, was and is, health insurance. You have to also accept that the afro American ethnic group make up a disproportionate number of the poorest in the States. By bringing in State sponsored health insurance he provided for the poorest the most,without making it a black / white issue. It's taking a populist idiot like Trump to undo that, whilst causing the deaths of tens of thousands through utterly inept handling of the pandemic, like Bolsonaro in Brazil and our own resident idiot Johnson. But not a lasting legacy I’m afraid - a divisive bill and strangely not supported by the labour unions. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 13:44:36 GMT
Oh yes he did. If you allow yourself to think outside the confines of skin colour, the biggest issue facing the poorest in the States, was and is, health insurance. You have to also accept that the afro American ethnic group make up a disproportionate number of the poorest in the States. By bringing in State sponsored health insurance he provided for the poorest the most,without making it a black / white issue. It's taking a populist idiot like Trump to undo that, whilst causing the deaths of tens of thousands through utterly inept handling of the pandemic, like Bolsonaro in Brazil and our own resident idiot Johnson. But not a lasting legacy I’m afraid - a divisive bill and strangely not supported by the labour unions. It should be, roughly 30,000,000 lost their jobs recently there and with that any health insurance they may have had. Get Trump out in November and let's see what happens. It was divisive because the private insurers and drug companies opposed it. Why you may ask. We'll get this. I was over visiting in North Carolina in January. Rather stupidly I forgot to take one element of my meds. What's good about America is that you can walk in to a clinic and get seen almost anytime that day. I did, was given a cursory check and a prescription for what I needed was duly issued. Checking out to pay I was told $250. Then asked for my insurance, of course I said I had no local insurance for this. So when I said I would pay by card she proceeded to discount by 30%! Confused I asked my son how this could be. He then explained that of the $250 original charge an insurance company would only pay out 70% to the doctors and pocket the 30% themselves. So not only do they charge astronomical premiums they skim off 30% of the charge. It's a racket....that's why they hated Obama. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 13:46:49 GMT
A genuine question and not 'loaded' in any way. The USA had a black President for eight years - arguably the most powerful man in the world, did he even start any reforms, or leave a legacy for the country to build upon with regard to the black population? I'm struggling to think of anything. Because Obama was a neoliberal and therefore had no intention of disrupting the status quo. Oh yes he did, and he did...not enough in the end but he did. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 15:21:30 GMT
Because Obama was a neoliberal and therefore had no intention of disrupting the status quo. Oh yes he did, and he did...not enough in the end but he did. Sorry, can't praise Obama and the democrat government, they authorised over 500 drone strikes and are a big part of the corrupt system that led us in to this global mess. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 15:42:29 GMT
Oh yes he did, and he did...not enough in the end but he did. Sorry, can't praise Obama and the democrat government, they authorised over 500 drone strikes and are a big part of the corrupt system that led us in to this global mess. On domestic policies I can. On foreign policy and what we in the west have done, have been doing since 1900, don't get me started. I get into trouble and the nationalists set the dogs out after me. |
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 23, 2020 16:32:35 GMT
Out of interest has any evidence come out yet regarding the motive for George Floyd’s murder or do we have to wait for the trial. Was that racially motivated do we know? I’ve no idea whether the cop was just an over aggressive thug or an over aggressive racist thug. No. I posted a video a few pages back where a couple of black guys pointed out that for every type of black killing at the hands of police there is an identical killing of a white person at the hands of police, including 2 black cops who shot and killed a 6 year old autistic white boy. Was that a racist killing by a cop? The waters get so muddied that it starts to look like an issue with American cops in general where they have too much authority and too much weaponry and it’s a cocktail for disaster. It’s certainly made me ask the question more about whether George Floyd’s killing was racist or just the consequence of a power trip. I also question why the conduct of American police is being transposed to the U.K. in terms of statistical chance using a bit of fag packet maths there are roughly 600k of arrests a year in the U.K, so over a decade ~6 million arrests, of those ~6 mill *13* were black people who died in custody. 13 of ~6 million arrests and yet black people fear for their lives with British cops? Gimme a break, you’re more likely to be hit by a car, he’ll, hit by a flaming asteroid then you are to be killed by British Police. We might have an issue with systemic racism that black people are victims of the justice system more often and likely to suffer from poverty etc but to make an issue of Police brutality in this country, sheesh, this country has one of the softest police forces you will find in the world because we have decent human rights, on the whole. Don’t be making out that we are anywhere near as bad as America for brutality. Because it was a poorly made video that doesn't at all represent the general views of their ethnicity, they say "where's the campaigns on black on black crime" as if rap, the most popular genre in the world, doesn't have many, many artists who speak out against it and against the culture of gang violence. And no because *checks notes* it wasn't motivated by race, those cops should be prosecuted though. And to answer your question, it's most likely both, US cops aren't held accountable and there are numerous examples of the killings of innocent black people with no persecution for the cops responsible, a clear example is Breonna Taylor, the police stormed into the wrong house, without a warrant and shot her and how were they punished? Oh right, they weren't. Except it's not solely due to deaths in police custody, and you're being picky with the data. A study conducted between 1990 and 2009 found that "a disproportionate number of people from BAME communities have died following the use of force." A study conducted between 2017 and 2019 found that there were 17 deaths in police custody, 6 of which (more than a third despite making up 3% of the population) were black. In 2017 the Angiolini review of deaths in police custody found that "improvements were needed for investigations into deaths as well as greater care for vulnerable individuals across all ethnic groups" "The stereotyping of young black men as 'dangerous, violent and volatile' is a longstanding trope that is ingrained in the mind of many in our society. People with mental health needs also face the stereotype of the mentally ill as 'mad, bad and dangerous'," the review said. I don't think there's any denial that black people aren't victims of systemic racism in some areas of society (I hope?), especially as a white person with the same CV as a black person is 3x more likely to get a job offer. No one says we're as bad or worse than the American police brutality issues but I think the saying "the least racist is still racist" saying holds very truly here. People would have said the same in the 1960s 365 when Martin Luther King was protesting and Malcolm X was rising up, did we also not have an issue there because we had one of the least racist police forces in the world? Stephen Lawrence and the Macpherson report were only 20 years ago might I add. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 17:44:51 GMT
One point I think is really interesting, and I'd like to hear 365's opinion. I was chatting with my family over the weekend and at one point the protests came up. We got talking about BLM and I posed the 365's statement that BLM wasn't a good slogan. My brother made an excellent point and said, 'No - I think it's an excellent slogan. The phrase BLM has got more people talking about racism in their countries than any other slogan has in recent years, which is ultimately what we want. Companies & institutions across the globe are reviewing their processes and making statements on where they stand, so I'd say it's a great slogan" Pretty fair point I think But that assumes it’s the slogan and not the death of George Floyd and the protests etc. that have got people talking. We don’t really know what the actual net benefit of the slogan is, although anecdotally a fair few have found it quite divisive/not inclusive. Also it’s interesting how a lot of people don’t know what BLM’s aims actually are. They think it’s just something to do with racism and black people as such I find it hilarious that the Premier League have got “Black Lives Matter” on the back of their shirts when one of BLM UK’s aims is to destroy the capitalist system because it doesn’t benefit black people- there is little in life that is so archly capitalist as the premier league. Can you imagine Scudamore and his ilk championing a socialist state- brilliant!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 17:58:23 GMT
They're not demanding "special rights". They're demanding equality. 365, you're not a fan of this government, right? If I told you "go to Russia or the US and see how the government is there, then tell me about the British government" - would you turn round and then say, yeah fair enough - good point? My point about rights was to highlight how extremely insignificant the number of *people* dying in custody is. Do you think we have a problem with police brutality in this country? When you take into account the fag packet maths I posted above? 140 deaths for ~6 million arrests? That’s why I draw comparisons to other countries police forces. Purely going by deaths our Police seem to be doing a decent job. In fact it is arguable that our Police are more in danger from the public than they are a danger to them. Statistically assaults on the police are on the rise too. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 18:39:32 GMT
No. I posted a video a few pages back where a couple of black guys pointed out that for every type of black killing at the hands of police there is an identical killing of a white person at the hands of police, including 2 black cops who shot and killed a 6 year old autistic white boy. Was that a racist killing by a cop? The waters get so muddied that it starts to look like an issue with American cops in general where they have too much authority and too much weaponry and it’s a cocktail for disaster. It’s certainly made me ask the question more about whether George Floyd’s killing was racist or just the consequence of a power trip. I also question why the conduct of American police is being transposed to the U.K. in terms of statistical chance using a bit of fag packet maths there are roughly 600k of arrests a year in the U.K, so over a decade ~6 million arrests, of those ~6 mill *13* were black people who died in custody. 13 of ~6 million arrests and yet black people fear for their lives with British cops? Gimme a break, you’re more likely to be hit by a car, he’ll, hit by a flaming asteroid then you are to be killed by British Police. We might have an issue with systemic racism that black people are victims of the justice system more often and likely to suffer from poverty etc but to make an issue of Police brutality in this country, sheesh, this country has one of the softest police forces you will find in the world because we have decent human rights, on the whole. Don’t be making out that we are anywhere near as bad as America for brutality. Because it was a poorly made video that doesn't at all represent the general views of their ethnicity, they say "where's the campaigns on black on black crime" as if rap, the most popular genre in the world, doesn't have many, many artists who speak out against it and against the culture of gang violence. And no because *checks notes* it wasn't motivated by race, those cops should be prosecuted though. And to answer your question, it's most likely both, US cops aren't held accountable and there are numerous examples of the killings of innocent black people with no persecution for the cops responsible, a clear example is Breonna Taylor, the police stormed into the wrong house, without a warrant and shot her and how were they punished? Oh right, they weren't. Except it's not solely due to deaths in police custody, and you're being picky with the data. A study conducted between 1990 and 2009 found that "a disproportionate number of people from BAME communities have died following the use of force." A study conducted between 2017 and 2019 found that there were 17 deaths in police custody, 6 of which (more than a third despite making up 3% of the population) were black. In 2017 the Angiolini review of deaths in police custody found that "improvements were needed for investigations into deaths as well as greater care for vulnerable individuals across all ethnic groups" "The stereotyping of young black men as 'dangerous, violent and volatile' is a longstanding trope that is ingrained in the mind of many in our society. People with mental health needs also face the stereotype of the mentally ill as 'mad, bad and dangerous'," the review said. I don't think there's any denial that black people aren't victims of systemic racism in some areas of society (I hope?), especially as a white person with the same CV as a black person is 3x more likely to get a job offer. No one says we're as bad or worse than the American police brutality issues but I think the saying "the least racist is still racist" saying holds very truly here. People would have said the same in the 1960s 365 when Martin Luther King was protesting and Malcolm X was rising up, did we also not have an issue there because we had one of the least racist police forces in the world? Stephen Lawrence and the Macpherson report were only 20 years ago might I add. You don’t know it was motivated by race any more than you know George Floyd’s death was motivated by race. It’s more correct to say you *don’t* want to believe those black cops were racist and you *do* want to believe that Floyd’s killer was racist because both are better narratives for your cause. Racism exists in the mind, as such it’s very hard to prove in reality which is why equivalent cases of Police brutality is a powerful form of cognitive dissonance, can the Police be that racist if they are killing everyone with impunity? Was the Breonna Taylor incident racist? It seems like a keystone cops-esque screw up rather than systemic racism and if you check the news the key office has been fired. With that one it’s easy to stand in judgement but can you honestly you would react calmly if you were being shot at, there is an immediate risk to your life and one of your colleagues is injured? Was the officer supposed to apologise, tiptoe out quietly and close the door behind him? They thought they were there to execute a warrant on a drug dealer- it seems to me that all involved were badly let down by the administrators who supplied the warrant in the first place. George Floyd’s death is the most clear cut I’ve seen where there are no mitigating circumstances- there were no shots fired or weapons involved, he was killed while prostrate on the ground. It’s very easy to come up with a racism narrative just because “all Police are racist” but how do you prove that in a court of law? Where is the evidence? So 17 deaths over 2 years...how many total arrests is that out of? That matters because if it’s out of 100 arrests I’d say that’s a big problem. But as I’ve already pointed out there are ~600k arrests a year in England alone so 17 deaths out of ~1.2 million all of a sudden doesn’t seem like such a big problem does it? Is that indicative of Police brutality in this country? It’s like saying there are way more black pianos in circulation than red ones but if you are going to be killed by a piano that falls out of a window it’s more likely to be a red one. It’s a sad fact of life that black people should be more concerned about other black people than the police as they are *statistically* far more likely to be killed by the people in their community than they are by the police. Hence why it’s important that black on black crime has some sort of focus in this whole argument because otherwise BLM are tilting at windmills talking about police brutality in the U.K. when given the above. |
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