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Post by Gassy on Jun 23, 2020 19:03:22 GMT
They're not demanding "special rights". They're demanding equality. 365, you're not a fan of this government, right? If I told you "go to Russia or the US and see how the government is there, then tell me about the British government" - would you turn round and then say, yeah fair enough - good point? My point about rights was to highlight how extremely insignificant the number of *people* dying in custody is. Do you think we have a problem with police brutality in this country? When you take into account the fag packet maths I posted above? 140 deaths for ~6 million arrests? That’s why I draw comparisons to other countries police forces. Purely going by deaths our Police seem to be doing a decent job. In fact it is arguable that our Police are more in danger from the public than they are a danger to them. Statistically assaults on the police are on the rise too. I don't know, because I've never had issues with police. Also because I'm white. Can you, as a white guy say there isn't police brutality? I'm personally not disagreeing with anything - I'm just arguing against your point of special rights and answering the question you posed. I haven't looked at the stats to say yes or no there isn't. Again, I just think it's very easy for us to sit here as white people and criticise BAME people complaining against racism. Who defines what's racist? Is it you, the white person? Or the black person? One point I think is really interesting, and I'd like to hear 365's opinion. I was chatting with my family over the weekend and at one point the protests came up. We got talking about BLM and I posed the 365's statement that BLM wasn't a good slogan. My brother made an excellent point and said, 'No - I think it's an excellent slogan. The phrase BLM has got more people talking about racism in their countries than any other slogan has in recent years, which is ultimately what we want. Companies & institutions across the globe are reviewing their processes and making statements on where they stand, so I'd say it's a great slogan" Pretty fair point I think But that assumes it’s the slogan and not the death of George Floyd and the protests etc. that have got people talking. We don’t really know what the actual net benefit of the slogan is, although anecdotally a fair few have found it quite divisive/not inclusive. Also it’s interesting how a lot of people don’t know what BLM’s aims actually are. They think it’s just something to do with racism and black people as such I find it hilarious that the Premier League have got “Black Lives Matter” on the back of their shirts when one of BLM UK’s aims is to destroy the capitalist system because it doesn’t benefit black people- there is little in life that is so archly capitalist as the premier league. Can you imagine Scudamore and his ilk championing a socialist state- brilliant!  Well you yourself said how you didn't like the slogan. Inee said it as well I think, so I can only assume you were talking about the slogan? There seems to be a lot of "all lives matter" and now from Burnley "white lives matter", so I can only assume the slogan has got people defensive. I wasn't sure on the slogan tbh, I saw both sides - but my brother made a good point and has convinced me. Maybe we needed something controversial for us to actually do more, or to make us more aware of the racism that just gets forgotten about. Eric had mentioned before about confusion over BLM's aims. Did anyone actually go and look at their website? It kind of fits into what I've said before if you don't see any racism in the UK, then you're choosing not to look. If you don't really know what they stand for, go look it up, rather than question their motives. Here you go; blacklivesmatter.com/about/ |
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Post by Gassy on Jun 23, 2020 19:05:04 GMT
On a separate note, does anyone actually think it was Burnley fans who put the white lives matter flag?
I'm not convinced.
If you were going to do it, you'd surely know the reaction you'd get? I just get the feeling it might be from a rival club who has these views, and can also slate Burnley at the same time?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 19:12:03 GMT
Because it was a poorly made video that doesn't at all represent the general views of their ethnicity, they say "where's the campaigns on black on black crime" as if rap, the most popular genre in the world, doesn't have many, many artists who speak out against it and against the culture of gang violence. And no because *checks notes* it wasn't motivated by race, those cops should be prosecuted though. And to answer your question, it's most likely both, US cops aren't held accountable and there are numerous examples of the killings of innocent black people with no persecution for the cops responsible, a clear example is Breonna Taylor, the police stormed into the wrong house, without a warrant and shot her and how were they punished? Oh right, they weren't. Except it's not solely due to deaths in police custody, and you're being picky with the data. A study conducted between 1990 and 2009 found that "a disproportionate number of people from BAME communities have died following the use of force." A study conducted between 2017 and 2019 found that there were 17 deaths in police custody, 6 of which (more than a third despite making up 3% of the population) were black. In 2017 the Angiolini review of deaths in police custody found that "improvements were needed for investigations into deaths as well as greater care for vulnerable individuals across all ethnic groups" "The stereotyping of young black men as 'dangerous, violent and volatile' is a longstanding trope that is ingrained in the mind of many in our society. People with mental health needs also face the stereotype of the mentally ill as 'mad, bad and dangerous'," the review said. I don't think there's any denial that black people aren't victims of systemic racism in some areas of society (I hope?), especially as a white person with the same CV as a black person is 3x more likely to get a job offer. No one says we're as bad or worse than the American police brutality issues but I think the saying "the least racist is still racist" saying holds very truly here. People would have said the same in the 1960s 365 when Martin Luther King was protesting and Malcolm X was rising up, did we also not have an issue there because we had one of the least racist police forces in the world? Stephen Lawrence and the Macpherson report were only 20 years ago might I add. You don’t know it was motivated by race any more than you know George Floyd’s death was motivated by race. It’s more correct to say you *don’t* want to believe those black cops were racist and you *do* want to believe that Floyd’s killer was racist because both are better narratives for your cause. Racism exists in the mind, as such it’s very hard to prove in reality which is why equivalent cases of Police brutality is a powerful form of cognitive dissonance, can the Police be that racist if they are killing everyone with impunity? Was the Breonna Taylor incident racist? It seems like a keystone cops-esque screw up rather than systemic racism and if you check the news the key office has been fired. With that one it’s easy to stand in judgement but can you honestly you would react calmly if you were being shot at, there is an immediate risk to your life and one of your colleagues is injured? Was the officer supposed to apologise, tiptoe out quietly and close the door behind him? They thought they were there to execute a warrant on a drug dealer- it seems to me that all involved were badly let down by the administrators who supplied the warrant in the first place. George Floyd’s death is the most clear cut I’ve seen where there are no mitigating circumstances- there were no shots fired or weapons involved, he was killed while prostrate on the ground. It’s very easy to come up with a racism narrative just because “all Police are racist” but how do you prove that in a court of law? Where is the evidence? So 17 deaths over 2 years...how many total arrests is that out of? That matters because if it’s out of 100 arrests I’d say that’s a big problem. But as I’ve already pointed out there are ~600k arrests a year in England alone so 17 deaths out of ~1.2 million all of a sudden doesn’t seem like such a big problem does it? Is that indicative of Police brutality in this country? It’s like saying there are way more black pianos in circulation than red ones but if you are going to be killed by a piano that falls out of a window it’s more likely to be a red one. It’s a sad fact of life that black people should be more concerned about other black people than the police as they are *statistically* far more likely to be killed by the people in their community than they are by the police. Hence why it’s important that black on black crime has some sort of focus in this whole argument because otherwise BLM are tilting at windmills talking about police brutality in the U.K. when given the above. I can't help thinking 365 that you are missing the point here. The Floyd murder has acted as a catalyst for the movement to expose and hopefully address the inherent racial bias / prejudice in society. It's not a protest just about the murder itself. They are, BLM, rightly using this event to promote their issues. The time has come, finally, to sort this and not argue about the minutiae. Unless if course you don't think there is a problem? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 20:23:48 GMT
On a separate note, does anyone actually think it was Burnley fans who put the white lives matter flag? I'm not convinced. If you were going to do it, you'd surely know the reaction you'd get? I just get the feeling it might be from a rival club who has these views, and can also slate Burnley at the same time? Think you have to go with Occam's razor, simplest explanation the preferred. Yeah, it could be a false flag but I think to say that speaks more for how paranoid everyone has become. Not saying you personally are paranoid, more that the masses don't believe anything anymore, we are bombarded with so much nonsense the lines get blurred. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 22:30:45 GMT
My point about rights was to highlight how extremely insignificant the number of *people* dying in custody is. Do you think we have a problem with police brutality in this country? When you take into account the fag packet maths I posted above? 140 deaths for ~6 million arrests? That’s why I draw comparisons to other countries police forces. Purely going by deaths our Police seem to be doing a decent job. In fact it is arguable that our Police are more in danger from the public than they are a danger to them. Statistically assaults on the police are on the rise too. I don't know, because I've never had issues with police. Also because I'm white. Can you, as a white guy say there isn't police brutality? I'm personally not disagreeing with anything - I'm just arguing against your point of special rights and answering the question you posed. I haven't looked at the stats to say yes or no there isn't. Again, I just think it's very easy for us to sit here as white people and criticise BAME people complaining against racism. Who defines what's racist? Is it you, the white person? Or the black person? But that assumes it’s the slogan and not the death of George Floyd and the protests etc. that have got people talking. We don’t really know what the actual net benefit of the slogan is, although anecdotally a fair few have found it quite divisive/not inclusive. Also it’s interesting how a lot of people don’t know what BLM’s aims actually are. They think it’s just something to do with racism and black people as such I find it hilarious that the Premier League have got “Black Lives Matter” on the back of their shirts when one of BLM UK’s aims is to destroy the capitalist system because it doesn’t benefit black people- there is little in life that is so archly capitalist as the premier league. Can you imagine Scudamore and his ilk championing a socialist state- brilliant! Well you yourself said how you didn't like the slogan. Inee said it as well I think, so I can only assume you were talking about the slogan? There seems to be a lot of "all lives matter" and now from Burnley "white lives matter", so I can only assume the slogan has got people defensive. I wasn't sure on the slogan tbh, I saw both sides - but my brother made a good point and has convinced me. Maybe we needed something controversial for us to actually do more, or to make us more aware of the racism that just gets forgotten about. Eric had mentioned before about confusion over BLM's aims. Did anyone actually go and look at their website? It kind of fits into what I've said before if you don't see any racism in the UK, then you're choosing not to look. If you don't really know what they stand for, go look it up, rather than question their motives. Here you go; blacklivesmatter.com/about/I think we need to be clear about the semantics here because to me it seems important: racism and police brutality are two different things, I am all for the end of racism if it is found to exist in the U.K’s institutions but I do oppose the narrative of police brutality in this country, well at least the deaths because when in context the death count is minute compared to the number of opportunities police have to kill black people, hell any colour of person, every year. In my view that counts for a lot in terms of telling me how brutal our police are. So as such I find it is just crass hysteria when you hear black lives matters people complaining about police brutality in this country and that statistic about “I’m more likely to be killed by police etc” because it’s an awful sound bite that when picked apart they’ve got more chance of being killed by a lot of things before they get killed by police. As I said in my reply to sc, black people are most likely to be killed by other black oriole- but you don’t hear them shouting about that because it somewhat undermines their argument. So again, imo, end racism- fine, complain about police brutality in America- fine (although what that’s got to do with the U.K. god only knows- we should have some pride that we are more evolved in our approach to policing) but complain about our brutal police killing black people? I can’t get behind that and I’ve tried to explain statistically why. And you have you have misunderstood my use of “special rights” but I don’t think I was clear. I was trying to make a comparison in terms of how big the number of people being killed as a percentage of arrests is. Basically if you had a section of society, Morris dancers for example, who wanted a bank holiday in July so they could Morris dance, but Morris dancers were less than 1% of the population, no-one would pay any attention to their demand because they are so statistically insignificant. That’s how small > 1% is in the grand scheme of things, yet it’s being blown up like black people are dying all the freaking time in custody and black people in the U.K. have a genuine reason to be scared of police cells. They should be way way way more scared of other black people, statistically speaking. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 22:48:29 GMT
Oh and to address your last point- check BLM UK’s stated aims on their verified twitter account- they clearly call for an end to capitalism because capitalism disadvantages black people. How many people who support black lives matter support an end to capitalism? How many even know that BLM’s U.K. operation is aiming to end capitalism? It’s potentially scary stuff because they don’t say what they want to replace it with, socialism? Anarchy? It’s a worrying sign that BLM is a vehicle for a hard left political agenda. As much as I would like to see some left wing political change the idea of Antifa at the wheel of a BLM Trojan horse trying to instil communism or their version of ‘liberty’ worries me. I mean, they’ll never succeed in a million years, so I guess me worrying about an Antifa U.K. cabinet is like the black people worrying about British police killing them, but it would still be good to have their aims scrutinised properly and the proper checks made to see who is really behind BLM U.K, black people or the extreme hard left gender pro-noun soup crew?
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 24, 2020 6:05:48 GMT
I don't know, because I've never had issues with police. Also because I'm white. Can you, as a white guy say there isn't police brutality? I'm personally not disagreeing with anything - I'm just arguing against your point of special rights and answering the question you posed. I haven't looked at the stats to say yes or no there isn't. Again, I just think it's very easy for us to sit here as white people and criticise BAME people complaining against racism. Who defines what's racist? Is it you, the white person? Or the black person? Well you yourself said how you didn't like the slogan. Inee said it as well I think, so I can only assume you were talking about the slogan? There seems to be a lot of "all lives matter" and now from Burnley "white lives matter", so I can only assume the slogan has got people defensive. I wasn't sure on the slogan tbh, I saw both sides - but my brother made a good point and has convinced me. Maybe we needed something controversial for us to actually do more, or to make us more aware of the racism that just gets forgotten about. Eric had mentioned before about confusion over BLM's aims. Did anyone actually go and look at their website? It kind of fits into what I've said before if you don't see any racism in the UK, then you're choosing not to look. If you don't really know what they stand for, go look it up, rather than question their motives. Here you go; blacklivesmatter.com/about/ That’s how small > 1% is in the grand scheme of things, yet it’s being blown up like black people are dying all the freaking time in custody and black people in the U.K. have a genuine reason to be scared of police cells. They should be way way way more scared of other black people, statistically speaking. As someone who just wants to live, ( even if it means working for Asda ) I would be. Probably just my white privilege speaking, eh , Gassy? |
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 24, 2020 6:11:32 GMT
My point about rights was to highlight how extremely insignificant the number of *people* dying in custody is. Do you think we have a problem with police brutality in this country? When you take into account the fag packet maths I posted above? 140 deaths for ~6 million arrests? That’s why I draw comparisons to other countries police forces. Purely going by deaths our Police seem to be doing a decent job. In fact it is arguable that our Police are more in danger from the public than they are a danger to them. Statistically assaults on the police are on the rise too. I don't know, because I've never had issues with police. Also because I'm white. Can you, as a white guy say there isn't police brutality? I'm personally not disagreeing with anything - I'm just arguing against your point of special rights and answering the question you posed. I haven't looked at the stats to say yes or no there isn't. Again, I just think it's very easy for us to sit here as white people and criticise BAME people complaining against racism. Who defines what's racist? Is it you, the white person? Or the black person? But that assumes it’s the slogan and not the death of George Floyd and the protests etc. that have got people talking. We don’t really know what the actual net benefit of the slogan is, although anecdotally a fair few have found it quite divisive/not inclusive. Also it’s interesting how a lot of people don’t know what BLM’s aims actually are. They think it’s just something to do with racism and black people as such I find it hilarious that the Premier League have got “Black Lives Matter” on the back of their shirts when one of BLM UK’s aims is to destroy the capitalist system because it doesn’t benefit black people- there is little in life that is so archly capitalist as the premier league. Can you imagine Scudamore and his ilk championing a socialist state- brilliant! Well you yourself said how you didn't like the slogan. Inee said it as well I think, so I can only assume you were talking about the slogan? There seems to be a lot of "all lives matter" and now from Burnley "white lives matter", so I can only assume the slogan has got people defensive. I wasn't sure on the slogan tbh, I saw both sides - but my brother made a good point and has convinced me. Maybe we needed something controversial for us to actually do more, or to make us more aware of the racism that just gets forgotten about. I work with a guy of Pakistani origin. We were discussing it all, and he asked, " What about brown lives; do they matter?" I just laughed. I said, " I don`t know, mate. I don`t make the rules." |
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Post by Gassy on Jun 24, 2020 7:18:02 GMT
That’s how small > 1% is in the grand scheme of things, yet it’s being blown up like black people are dying all the freaking time in custody and black people in the U.K. have a genuine reason to be scared of police cells. They should be way way way more scared of other black people, statistically speaking. As someone who just wants to live, ( even if it means working for Asda ) I would be. Probably just my white privilege speaking, eh , Gassy? So you still haven’t learnt what white privileged actually means then. Never saw your proof bra for you claim at Oldie, unless I missed it? I assume you wouldn’t moan at Oldie about not answering a claim he made (when he did in the end) and then yourself not actually do that same? Surely? |
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Post by Gassy on Jun 24, 2020 7:42:09 GMT
365 - Can you link me where the twitter account said they wanted to end capitalism? I just had a look through their twitter and I didn't find it. All I can see if I google it is a Daily Mail & Torygraph article on it.
I find it interesting that since the papers reported on it, the aims of BLM seems to be known - but before that, you had no idea? Screams to me that until this article came out, no one knew or bothered to look. Am I wrong?
Having looked through the twitter account I saw 2 mentions of state brutality in 2 weeks. The rest of it was about ending racism in the UK and expressing discontent about racist things happening across the country, so I don't think it's quite as bad as you're making out.
My general opinion of the police is exceptionally high in the UK. My first thoughts of police brutality against anyone, never mind BAME would naturally be that I don't believe it's there, however, I generally wouldn't like to say to someone that there isn't racist police brutality, if I don't have any idea. Just had a very quick google and the number of deaths in custody is exceptionally low (f*ck you America) and from BAME whilst it is out of proportion, 10 people more is such a small sample size that to discuss death in police custody against BAME being racist wouldn't be a fair argument IMO. So I'm potentially on side.
However, statistics that are also worth noting
- Black people are 8x more likely to be stopped & searched
- Metropolitan police are 4x more likely to use force on black people
- Black people were twice as likely to be fined for breaking lockdown
There are a few reports of police racism, I saw one from someone quite senior in the force recently admitting that there was still racism and it was still very prevalent.
So ultimately, what do you want to put brutality down to? Deaths? Or violence? The stats show that yeah, there is police brutality against black people.
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Post by Gassy on Jun 24, 2020 7:43:17 GMT
I don't know, because I've never had issues with police. Also because I'm white. Can you, as a white guy say there isn't police brutality? I'm personally not disagreeing with anything - I'm just arguing against your point of special rights and answering the question you posed. I haven't looked at the stats to say yes or no there isn't. Again, I just think it's very easy for us to sit here as white people and criticise BAME people complaining against racism. Who defines what's racist? Is it you, the white person? Or the black person? Well you yourself said how you didn't like the slogan. Inee said it as well I think, so I can only assume you were talking about the slogan? There seems to be a lot of "all lives matter" and now from Burnley "white lives matter", so I can only assume the slogan has got people defensive. I wasn't sure on the slogan tbh, I saw both sides - but my brother made a good point and has convinced me. Maybe we needed something controversial for us to actually do more, or to make us more aware of the racism that just gets forgotten about. I work with a guy of Pakistani origin. We were discussing it all, and he asked, " What about brown lives; do they matter?" I just laughed. I said, " I don`t know, mate. I don`t make the rules." That is a fair point. It's far from perfect, but at least we're highlighting racism more than ever, which is a good thing. Right? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 8:44:26 GMT
I work with a guy of Pakistani origin. We were discussing it all, and he asked, " What about brown lives; do they matter?" I just laughed. I said, " I don`t know, mate. I don`t make the rules." That is a fair point. It's far from perfect, but at least we're highlighting racism more than ever, which is a good thing. Right? I presumed that throw away remark was in jest. At this point I don't understand why anyone is trying to unpick a campaign that seeks to highlight and hopefully drive action to change prejudicial attitudes and /or outright racism. These will never be totally eliminated because we are human and will always have our share of morons. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't try, whatever our skin colour. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 9:28:20 GMT
That is a fair point. It's far from perfect, but at least we're highlighting racism more than ever, which is a good thing. Right? I presumed that throw away remark was in jest. At this point I don't understand why anyone is trying to unpick a campaign that seeks to highlight and hopefully drive action to change prejudicial attitudes and /or outright racism. These will never be totally eliminated because we are human and will always have our share of morons. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't try, whatever our skin colour. Totally agree. I think by saying white or all lives matter, people are essentially saying that black lives don't matter. People seem genuinely scared of any change because they don't want their perceived privileges taken away. The individualist nature of our society can't comprehend this collective movement, so they can only try to ignore it and wish it away. |
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 24, 2020 9:39:47 GMT
As someone who just wants to live, ( even if it means working for Asda ) I would be. Probably just my white privilege speaking, eh , Gassy? Never saw your proof bra for you claim at Oldie, unless I missed it? I assume you wouldn’t moan at Oldie about not answering a claim he made (when he did in the end) and then yourself not actually do that same? You`ll have to clarify that one for me. |
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 24, 2020 9:47:01 GMT
That is a fair point. It's far from perfect, but at least we're highlighting racism more than ever, which is a good thing. Right? I presumed that throw away remark was in jest. At this point I don't understand why anyone is trying to unpick a campaign that seeks to highlight and hopefully drive action to change prejudicial attitudes and /or outright racism. Of course, you assumed it was in jest. Have you ever wondered where brown people see themselves fitting into all this? And telling people that expressing the opinion that ALL lives matter is somehow unacceptable, won`t help change prejudicial attitudes. Never. |
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 24, 2020 10:16:15 GMT
They probably didn't do themselves any favours mixing their core demands with what amounted to a Marxist agenda in 1960s America. Maybe they should have given that a bit more thought? Perhaps But in 1968, we were all up for the overthrow of the State, Danny the Red in Paris, Baader Meinhof in Germany, Tariq Ali here, Black Panthers, and of course white kids under the tutelage of Dr Timothy Leary. Ahhh....heady days. Nights in the Dug Out, Park St Speak for yourself, Les. Many people may have been up for the overthrow of the state, but not "all" were up for the methods employed by the people you mention. I lived and worked in Germany during the heyday of the Baader Meinhof gang. They were not "heady days". Small wonder, you voted for Mr Corbyn. Doubtless he felt the same. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 11:02:25 GMT
Perhaps But in 1968, we were all up for the overthrow of the State, Danny the Red in Paris, Baader Meinhof in Germany, Tariq Ali here, Black Panthers, and of course white kids under the tutelage of Dr Timothy Leary. Ahhh....heady days. Nights in the Dug Out, Park St Speak for yourself, Les. Many people may have been up for the overthrow of the state, but not "all" were up for the methods employed by the people you mention. I lived and worked in Germany during the heyday of the Baader Meinhof gang. They were not "heady days". Small wonder, you voted for Mr Corbyn. Doubtless he felt the same. We were young, pushing the boundaries. I know in Bristol, from about 1967 on there was a lot of it about. Heady days |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 11:03:34 GMT
I presumed that throw away remark was in jest. At this point I don't understand why anyone is trying to unpick a campaign that seeks to highlight and hopefully drive action to change prejudicial attitudes and /or outright racism. Of course, you assumed it was in jest. Have you ever wondered where brown people see themselves fitting into all this? And telling people that expressing the opinion that ALL lives matter is somehow unacceptable, won`t help change prejudicial attitudes. Never. I am assuming you are taking the water. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 12:06:10 GMT
365 - Can you link me where the twitter account said they wanted to end capitalism? I just had a look through their twitter and I didn't find it. All I can see if I google it is a Daily Mail & Torygraph article on it. I find it interesting that since the papers reported on it, the aims of BLM seems to be known - but before that, you had no idea? Screams to me that until this article came out, no one knew or bothered to look. Am I wrong? Having looked through the twitter account I saw 2 mentions of state brutality in 2 weeks. The rest of it was about ending racism in the UK and expressing discontent about racist things happening across the country, so I don't think it's quite as bad as you're making out. My general opinion of the police is exceptionally high in the UK. My first thoughts of police brutality against anyone, never mind BAME would naturally be that I don't believe it's there, however, I generally wouldn't like to say to someone that there isn't racist police brutality, if I don't have any idea. Just had a very quick google and the number of deaths in custody is exceptionally low (f*ck you America) and from BAME whilst it is out of proportion, 10 people more is such a small sample size that to discuss death in police custody against BAME being racist wouldn't be a fair argument IMO. So I'm potentially on side. However, statistics that are also worth noting - Black people are 8x more likely to be stopped & searched - Metropolitan police are 4x more likely to use force on black people - Black people were twice as likely to be fined for breaking lockdown There are a few reports of police racism, I saw one from someone quite senior in the force recently admitting that there was still racism and it was still very prevalent. So ultimately, what do you want to put brutality down to? Deaths? Or violence? The stats show that yeah, there is police brutality against black people. “We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism...” Careful what you wish for I guess... Interestingly they had that Mission statement on their twitter in a 4 panel jpg, it appears to have been removed but it is obviously still on their funding page. I can assure you most strongly that I wasn’t made aware of it through the daily mail either! More a forum that has a spectrum of political opinions- from left to right. And whilst this is not a game or a point scoring exercise I will gently say it is “good to see” that your reasoning agrees with mine that the number of deaths is low. When people parrot the stats (and sc was guilty of this earlier) relating to the U.K. they never put it in context, number of deaths vs arrests. When you do that, as you saw yourself, complaining about deaths of anyone regardless of skin colour in the U.K. is such a miniscule sample size that it’s pointless. Oldie thinks squabbling over the minutiae like this is pointless but it actually isn’t because the semantics are important. Otherwise you fall into BLMs emotive trap of thinking *everything* in the U.K. is sh** (which is what they want you to believe) when actually some things are not as bad as they are making out. I try to keep an open mind so for me, yes, it’s important to separate racism from brutality from deaths in custody. And I guess it depends what the definition of brutality actually is- to me it implies physical harm so police stopping more black people is not brutality, that’s *potentially* racism but what I don’t have is evidence for or against the notion that black people are identified as the suspect for more crimes. If that *were* to be the case then the police have more reason to seek out black people than they would other races, right? I’d be very interested in a study into what markers the police look for when stopping people on the streets. If a well dressed black guy in a suit was put in a town centre next to a scruffy white lad in a tracksuit who would get stopped more often by the police? Is it skin colour or socio-economic factors the a police look for first? If the police are institutionally racist it should be skin colour, right? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 12:13:12 GMT
You'll have to forgive me butting in here, but in 1968 I was 7, so couldn't get past the door staff at The Dug Out, no matter how jaunty an angle I wore my beret at, so my question is, was there a time when it wasn't realised that Red Army Faction were in fact a murderous terrorist organisation?
I get the student Citizen Smith thing, but surely with the benefit of hindsight we can filter out praise for a group with so much blood on their hands?
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