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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 16:34:16 GMT
365
"If there is something in all this that people should be very circumspect about it is separating America’s problems from our problems. We are absolutely not in any way as bad as America when it comes to our Police and full investigation of our death in custody count should highlight this and be a point of pride that we can start to build a fairer system on."
This is true and I don't think anyone has ever denied this.
The reason is of course because we in the UK have a tradition of policing by consent whilst in America it's by force.
But like I have said previously the Floyd murder is just a catalyst to bring out into the open the issues in the BAME community of inherent racial bias / prejudice which are layerd on top of the disproportionate levels of low incomes, poor educational attainment and the resulting social impacts.
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Post by Gassy on Jun 25, 2020 17:21:36 GMT
You conveniently left our the part in their gofundme where it says right after "white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world". The key point here, IMO, being 'that disproportionately harm black people'. The way its phrase is that they're wanting to dismantle capitalism that disproportionately harms black people. I think thats fair. We need to change the system, because clearly it isn't working. IMO, you've twisted their aims completely to suit your agenda. (although I'll admit I didn't see the twitter post - which may have backed up your point more). I also think it's unfair that BLM mention quite a lot on their page you've linked - in fact, 5 paragraphs. But we're here focusing on literally one point to discredit it? Or am I misunderstanding? Some things may not be as bad as they're making out, but sometimes we need to make the loudest noise for us to reflect. What ever people's opinions on BLM, they've certainly achieved that. Your class stereotyping from police is also a good point though. And tbh, it's just as bad as racism IMO. Hmm...I was about to say I can see how you would reach that conclusion but I’ve read it again and it’s pretty clear that they wish to dismantle “capitalism AND...”. The and is very definitive in stipulating capitalism as it’s own entity that needs dismantling. What is your understanding of the word dismantle? To me it’s taking something to pieces so it no longer exists, to be replaced by what? It seems to me it’s a real stretch to get a sense that they are actually saying something like “take out the bad bits of capitalism so it does not disadvantage black people”- the word dismantle is not commensurate with that for starters. Yes, BLM are no different from any other political party or campaign group who make things sound worse than they are to garner support and as noble as their goal is in the main there is no cause noble enough that it should escape scrutiny and critique when it slips into hyperbole. Especially as it can have real world consequences: ie if enough moderate black people hear about how they are more likely to die in custody how many will have their views of the police soured even more than they are already when in actuality it’s pure hyperbole and the main dangers lie elsewhere. It’s propaganda. Although I will say that I don’t see BLM U.K. in their campaign material playing the police brutality in the U.K. card as much as it’s been propagated by the protesters that were given a platform to speak during the protests. If there is something in all this that people should be very circumspect about it is separating America’s problems from our problems. We are absolutely not in any way as bad as America when it comes to our Police and full investigation of our death in custody count should highlight this and be a point of pride that we can start to build a fairer system on. I’ll also say I thought the Police again showed the difference between us and America last night in Brixton where they retreated in the face of weaponry such as swords- in America the Police would have been shooting matey with the sword and asking questions later, if at all. Bloody hell mate, you're making me go back and read it again now! What you're saying isn't quite true. The sentence actually reads, " We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world" - personally I read the 'and' as an end of the list. I believe it's saying they're wanting to dismantle capitalism that disproportionately harms black people. I could see how you'd read it that way, but I'm not sure why BLM would randomly decide to take on capitalism itself? But yeah, for sure our police are miles ahead of American police. It's honestly like comparing chalk and cheese. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 18:03:30 GMT
The questions were asking you to support your position, not mine. Of course they were referenced against my view, that's how conversations between people with different opinions are carried out.
You did the exact same thing mentioning the discussions we had years back around the difference between spending and investing.
It's all fair in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 19:14:49 GMT
The questions were asking you to support your position, not mine. Of course they were referenced against my view, that's how conversations between people with different opinions are carried out. You did the exact same thing mentioning the discussions we had years back around the difference between spending and investing. It's all fair in my opinion. Tedious for everyone else. My final attempt. You are now questioning about what I didn't say, this time about overall levels of poverty, regardless. That is a blatant disregard for arguments I have made for intervention on this issue for years. This topic is specifically about the issues in America and how they have been taken up over here in the BAME community and, as it turns out, more widely. Now,back to the topic |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 19:17:28 GMT
Hmm...I was about to say I can see how you would reach that conclusion but I’ve read it again and it’s pretty clear that they wish to dismantle “capitalism AND...”. The and is very definitive in stipulating capitalism as it’s own entity that needs dismantling. What is your understanding of the word dismantle? To me it’s taking something to pieces so it no longer exists, to be replaced by what? It seems to me it’s a real stretch to get a sense that they are actually saying something like “take out the bad bits of capitalism so it does not disadvantage black people”- the word dismantle is not commensurate with that for starters. Yes, BLM are no different from any other political party or campaign group who make things sound worse than they are to garner support and as noble as their goal is in the main there is no cause noble enough that it should escape scrutiny and critique when it slips into hyperbole. Especially as it can have real world consequences: ie if enough moderate black people hear about how they are more likely to die in custody how many will have their views of the police soured even more than they are already when in actuality it’s pure hyperbole and the main dangers lie elsewhere. It’s propaganda. Although I will say that I don’t see BLM U.K. in their campaign material playing the police brutality in the U.K. card as much as it’s been propagated by the protesters that were given a platform to speak during the protests. If there is something in all this that people should be very circumspect about it is separating America’s problems from our problems. We are absolutely not in any way as bad as America when it comes to our Police and full investigation of our death in custody count should highlight this and be a point of pride that we can start to build a fairer system on. I’ll also say I thought the Police again showed the difference between us and America last night in Brixton where they retreated in the face of weaponry such as swords- in America the Police would have been shooting matey with the sword and asking questions later, if at all. Bloody hell mate, you're making me go back and read it again now! What you're saying isn't quite true. The sentence actually reads, " We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world" - personally I read the 'and' as an end of the list. I believe it's saying they're wanting to dismantle capitalism that disproportionately harms black people. I could see how you'd read it that way, but I'm not sure why BLM would randomly decide to take on capitalism itself? But yeah, for sure our police are miles ahead of American police. It's honestly like comparing chalk and cheese. Apart from today where two police officers took a selfie with two murdered black women and posted the pics on social media. Regardless of anything, what sort of men are these... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 19:41:36 GMT
The questions were asking you to support your position, not mine. Of course they were referenced against my view, that's how conversations between people with different opinions are carried out. You did the exact same thing mentioning the discussions we had years back around the difference between spending and investing. It's all fair in my opinion. Tedious for everyone else. My final attempt. You are now questioning about what I didn't say, this time about overall levels of poverty, regardless. That is a blatant disregard for arguments I have made for intervention on this issue for years. This topic is specifically about the issues in America and how they have been taken up over here in the BAME community and, as it turns out, more widely. Now,back to the topic I suspect that whether it's 'tedious' will divide opinion. People who generally support you may agree, those who think you are making points which, when examined in detail you can't / won't defend, may look and wonder why. I'm not actually questioning what you didn't say, more pointing out that you are more concerned about a lower number of BAME individuals disadvantaged than a higher number of white individuals experiencing the exact same issues. In what way is that an unfair observation? I understand that it's uncomfortable for you because it demonstrates that you do in fact view the issue through a prism of skin colour, but it's difficult to agree that it's an unfair comment on your position. Exact same issue with USA deaths, sure, as a % of population there are more black deaths at the hands of Police, but roughly 2 white people are killed by USA Police for every black person. Yet you are mute on behalf of the white victims. I'll leave people reading this to decide what the issue actually is; your desire to see racism as a factor and ignore comment that challenges your presuppositions, or some technicality around forum debating protocol on my part. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 19:57:32 GMT
Tedious for everyone else. My final attempt. You are now questioning about what I didn't say, this time about overall levels of poverty, regardless. That is a blatant disregard for arguments I have made for intervention on this issue for years. This topic is specifically about the issues in America and how they have been taken up over here in the BAME community and, as it turns out, more widely. Now,back to the topic I suspect that whether it's 'tedious' will divide opinion. People who generally support you may agree, those who think you are making points which, when examined in detail you can't / won't defend, may look and wonder why. I'm not actually questioning what you didn't say, more pointing out that you are more concerned about a lower number of BAME individuals disadvantaged than a higher number of white individuals experiencing the exact same issues. In what way is that an unfair observation? I understand that it's uncomfortable for you because it demonstrates that you do in fact view the issue through a prism of skin colour, but it's difficult to agree that it's an unfair comment on your position. Exact same issue with USA deaths, sure, as a % of population there are more black deaths at the hands of Police, but roughly 2 white people are killed by USA Police for every black person. Yet you are mute on behalf of the white victims. I'll leave people reading this to decide what the issue actually is; your desire to see racism as a factor and ignore comment that challenges your presuppositions, or some technicality around forum debating protocol on my part. Let's get this straight It's your opinion that I am more concerned, but it's just your opinion. Again, I have raised issues around poverty on here for years. You choose not to believe that, that's up to you. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 0:44:52 GMT
So “weaponising whiteness” seems to be a new tactic that the government is employing and is spawning effects like the white lives matter banner. See this twitter thread:
As far as I can see this issue of weaponising whiteness is being enabled primarily because of the divisiveness of the BLM name. “Black” invites reactive sloganeering using the opposite “white” and If it’s giving the government ammunition to recruit the “traditional voter” (who the guy in the twitter thread quite rightly points out is offered nothing by the government’s economic policies) then the BLM slogan is once again doing more harm than good. It’s a bloody crap slogan and I suspect we all agree on this in time if it galvanises the right wing into a culture war as this guy predicts. We need solidarity not further division.
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 26, 2020 5:39:33 GMT
Fair enough, WW. FWIW, I think I've posted 3 times in my entire life on the other forum. I actually logged on for the first time the other week to see what Jung/Bamber had said, he some how thinks I am some ex-poster of another forum name on that forum? I've always been Gassy, Jung  My comment about Jung was said "So from what Oldie has said" - as I don't read it. But fair point, my apologies to Jung for accusing him of that. A sorry episode, one where I lost my temper at one point, which was a bit pathetic. Let's confine that to history. Agreed. As Seneca once said, "If you know your history, then you know where you`re coming from." Or was it Bob Marley? |
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 26, 2020 5:58:35 GMT
The questions were asking you to support your position, not mine. Of course they were referenced against my view, that's how conversations between people with different opinions are carried out. You did the exact same thing mentioning the discussions we had years back around the difference between spending and investing. It's all fair in my opinion. Tedious for everyone else. I don`t think it is. Whatever the rights and wrongs of his opinions, Jung has come on here and put across his points of view in a calm and measured way. Other posters may prefer the car crash that other threads descended into. I guess, we all see things differently. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 8:18:49 GMT
Think if BLM does get traction against the state and the elites, there could be loads of other campaigns that take off... Poor lives, homelessness, modern slavery, gypsies etc... A very long list but would be good to address them one by one or maybe collectively with a proper government/state.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 8:19:47 GMT
BLMs main issue was police brutality but evolved to address the main factors of oppression.
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 26, 2020 9:32:29 GMT
You introduced the rapper as a suggested alternative narrative to BLM. I am suggesting that the points he raises are very true and relevant and are ones some of us have been arguing for, for a long time. The BAME community are an integral part of the poorest areas of the UK. That BLM raise issues beyond the murder of Floyd, as witnessed by 365's critique of their "manifesto", is to be welcomed not sniggered at. Their solutions, if they have any, many of us might not agree with, but gaining recognition of a problem is the first step. Not denied,as so often happens on this forum. Look at Eric's response. So why so much noise around BAME when there are more white people living in poverty in the UK? This is where your argument unravels, you claim that you don't frame these things in terms of race yet you'll dedicate time and effort arguing for a lower absolute number of hungry BAME mouths just because they are a minority group, so in crude terms, to you, 1 hungry BAME child carries more importance than 2 hungry white children. For me, I just see 3 mouths that need feeding. Agreed. But we`re obsessed with race. One way or another, we always have been. In little more than 50 years, we`ve gone from a point where black men were cheerfully strung up from trees, to a point now, where it`s considered unacceptable to give voice to the opinion that all lives matter. Surely to God, there`s middle ground to be found here. If there`s not, then I genuinely think we`re all f**ked. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 9:39:17 GMT
BLMs main issue was police brutality but evolved to address the main factors of oppression. And as mentioned, BLM USA has a long history of its members targeting and murdering Police officers. They are mute on the black on black murders that blight America, 26 in a single weekend just in Chicago a couple of weeks back, that's more than the number of unarmed black people killed by Police in America in the last 2 years, yet BLM, said nothing. The issues are worth looking at, BLM US is a not a credible organisation. Want to know just how unpleasant they can be? 2017 Philadelphia rally, white attendees banned. This was questioned, they stood by the ban on the basis that they were creating a 'black only space', here's what they said at the time, please don't blame me for their inability to spell 'diaspora' correctly twice, I copied and pasted this from their own statement; |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 9:43:35 GMT
Think if BLM does get traction against the state and the elites, there could be loads of other campaigns that take off... Poor lives, homelessness, modern slavery, gypsies etc... A very long list but would be good to address them one by one or maybe collectively with a proper government/state. In reality Exposing the issues is the easy bit. The harder part is offering up the solutions, or remedies, and carrying that in a democratic vote. Absolutism will not allow that to happen. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 13:03:44 GMT
Think if BLM does get traction against the state and the elites, there could be loads of other campaigns that take off... Poor lives, homelessness, modern slavery, gypsies etc... A very long list but would be good to address them one by one or maybe collectively with a proper government/state. Who are 'elites'? Compared to the world's poorest people, you and I, sat here messing around on forums are very comfortable I would suggest. So why not you take the lead and set an example. Chanelle Helm, a US BLM spokesperson says that white people who have the means to do so should, as a means of reparation, leave their assets to disadvantaged black people. Edit. Happy to provide links to stories about what Ms Helm requested, if you require them. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 13:04:47 GMT
BLMs main issue was police brutality but evolved to address the main factors of oppression. And as mentioned, BLM USA has a long history of its members targeting and murdering Police officers. They are mute on the black on black murders that blight America, 26 in a single weekend just in Chicago a couple of weeks back, that's more than the number of unarmed black people killed by Police in America in the last 2 years, yet BLM, said nothing. The issues are worth looking at, BLM US is a not a credible organisation. Want to know just how unpleasant they can be? 2017 Philadelphia rally, white attendees banned. This was questioned, they stood by the ban on the basis that they were creating a 'black only space', here's what they said at the time, please don't blame me for their inability to spell 'diaspora' correctly twice, I copied and pasted this from their own statement; In the future if you quote an organisations you could provide links and proof. You are looking at things from a political point of view, and it can be said that politics can be used to hinder emancipationairy movements. I'd prefer to look at BLM as a movement of liberation, that should not conform to the confines of the capitalist framework. If it did conform, change would not happen. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 13:05:24 GMT
Think if BLM does get traction against the state and the elites, there could be loads of other campaigns that take off... Poor lives, homelessness, modern slavery, gypsies etc... A very long list but would be good to address them one by one or maybe collectively with a proper government/state. God speaking of tedious how tedious is that? It would confirm my belief that there is a strata of society who have all their own problems sorted and are constantly on the hunt for a new group of people to be offended on behalf of. The living embodiment of Douglas Murray’s “retired St George syndrome”. If we tried to tackle education and social mobility that would have a positive net benefit for so many other issues that there would be no need to get the scalpel out and divide the proletariat into so many tiny niche causes. I’m really starting to buy into the idea that race is a social construct invited by the elites to keep poor whites in opposition with poor blacks. It’s working a treat judging by the current climate where it’s all about how we can segregate the disadvantaged as much as we can |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 13:10:36 GMT
And as mentioned, BLM USA has a long history of its members targeting and murdering Police officers. They are mute on the black on black murders that blight America, 26 in a single weekend just in Chicago a couple of weeks back, that's more than the number of unarmed black people killed by Police in America in the last 2 years, yet BLM, said nothing. The issues are worth looking at, BLM US is a not a credible organisation. Want to know just how unpleasant they can be? 2017 Philadelphia rally, white attendees banned. This was questioned, they stood by the ban on the basis that they were creating a 'black only space', here's what they said at the time, please don't blame me for their inability to spell 'diaspora' correctly twice, I copied and pasted this from their own statement; In the future if you quote an organisations you could provide links and proof. You are looking at things from a political point of view, and it can be said that politics can be used to hinder emancipationairy movements. I'd prefer to look at BLM as a movement of liberation, that should not conform to the confines of the capitalist framework. If it did conform, change would not happen. Would you like a link to the page that that quote came from? My view on this is apolitical, it's about equal rights and equality of opportunity, BLM US denied white people the right to attend an event, you defend that if you think it's the right thing to do, I most certainly do not. Not only is it an act of blatant discrimination based on skin colour, it's almost wilfully designed to increase tension. But it's not out of character for BLM US. I don't doubt that they have some decent members, but they also have some very unpleasant people associated with the movement. Just for clarity, this 'Burden of proof' thing. Looks like we still don't have it quite clear yet. It sits with the person making a positive assertion, but that doesn't mean that evry positive assertion has to be supported, in the first instance, with evidence. What it does mean is that, if challenged the person making the claim should be able to demonstrate that the claim is valid. I'm not going to clog every single post up with endless links, it would just be tiresome, but if I ever post something that you wish to challenge, then by all means, ask for the source of the information. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 13:11:48 GMT
Think if BLM does get traction against the state and the elites, there could be loads of other campaigns that take off... Poor lives, homelessness, modern slavery, gypsies etc... A very long list but would be good to address them one by one or maybe collectively with a proper government/state. Who are 'elites'? Compared to the world's poorest people, you and I, sat here messing around on forums are very comfortable I would suggest. So why not you take the lead and set an example. Chanelle Helm, a US BLM spokesperson says that white people who have the means to do so should, as a means of reparation, leave their assets to disadvantaged black people. And that’s where the rubber hits the road. Plenty snarl on social media, demanding their peers change their profile pic or “YOUR SILENCE IS DEAFENING” but ask them to give up their own resources and all of a sudden it gets real very fast |
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