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Post by bodies on Aug 16, 2020 17:03:19 GMT
£1300pw is the L2 average under the wage cap. Just over £2000 is the L1 average. obviously longer contracts are attractive to players but the downside is - more chances of another Bennett getting good money but not cutting the mustard. Becomes a drain on resources. It depends on how many players a club has - there's a good article by Rod Liddle (yeah - I know...) in today's Sunday Times about this. He says the average in L1 will be £1700pw (£2.5m pa in total per club) and the current average wage is now over £4000 (although that does sound a bit high - Sunderland? Ipswich?) so there is a massive realignment coming as contracts renew over the next couple of years. I agree with Bodies about the disproportionate harm that long term contracts of crap signings will do in the future. It’s not just clubs getting landed with a poor player on decent wages and a long contract, though. Up until now that had no impact other than financial and some owners may well just suck it up. Now, though, that player cannot be replaced without breaking the cap and also squad capacity. Managers who get recruitment wrong now have dug themselves a very big hole if it doesn’t turn out. I have no idea if these new rules are for keeps or just until football gets back to normal. But until it does I think there is going to be some very strange winners and losers.
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Post by yaz on Aug 16, 2020 22:38:31 GMT
Ok it’s a lazy Sunday afternoon so I’ll ask the question. What does sustainability mean to you? What does it mean in today’s football? Is it... matching expenditure to income each year so that you balance the books? Is it... making a small loss that you know you can cover each year? Is it... setting a budget in June trying to keep to it but not worrying if you go outside it? I’d suggest that sustainability for me means the first, matching expenditure to income. But if you have a very rich person who says that they will cover the loss does that make it sustainable because he’s basically saying “I will cover the losses for the next few years” so making it sustainable? I’d like to think you have a plan to: increase your income from match day football, increase the income streams from non-football areas, to use your resources (ground, training facilities, players) to generate more income on a day-to-day basis so that your income over a period of time grows and is not so heavily dependent upon match day income. I’m sure there are other areas, commercial sales, advertising, etc that I’ve not thought of which could really push up your income. I’d also suggest if the salary cap works it will be easier to calculate your player expenditure than it has ever been. So what does sustainability mean in reality? UTG! Well posed question! I think that answers to this will vary from person to person. To me, the survival of the club should always be the primary objective, especially for a L1 team and being faced with dire financial consequences of the Covid virus. So how can we be sustainable and survive at the same time. Sustainability therefore comes in many forms for us, e.g. is our fan base sustainable? This may seem an odd question but as hard core fans age and go off to greener pastures, how do they get replaced with new ones? I may be wrong but football generations now will not have that lifetime support for lower league clubs as used to happen in the past. Of course, there will be new and completely loyal fans, week in, week out, supporting the club as can be seen each week, home and away. And I think also that Rovers are very lucky in that our fans stay Gasheads for life, through thick and thin. So for this example, sustainability means keeping the fan numbers and better, increasing them. Just like trees are felled, grow more so that you stay sustainable in future. Promotions, facilities, etc. will help towards this as well. What else makes us sustainable; profitable so no financial worries. No relegation but building and fighting for promotion only? Contracts and players; rethink how players are signed and paid e.g. more commission but less basic? Earn As You Play? 10 year season tickets? Free Transport to home games on special Gas vehicles? Buy Back available to fans to become shareholders; long term planning towards this by owners? SAYE type scheme? Make available full match replays for nominal price after a few days. Just some ideas, some may be no nos, others may take years, etc. Finally, are we currently sustainable as a club? Most fans would say .....? UTG PS On a side note, are we environmentally friendly? All the plastic we generate at home games; beer and drinks glasses, food wrappings, etc. Maybe we cannot get away from this?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2020 23:02:19 GMT
Transfer market quiet. Bournemouth/watford appoint unknown managers,bristol city go for the cheapest option available. Did we jump the gun and pay last seasons wages to our new boys? Better players for much lower wages for those that wait i fear. Gillingham wanted ehmer to stay but nobody else was keen.Are we paying way over the odds in the new reality football world? How does any poster know nobody else wanted Ehmer? As far as Gillingham would you prefer we us just to sign L2 cast offs like their latest signing from Mansfield? Who are these better players as I can't see many have been suggested on the forum, we've signed on of the best CB's in Ehmer and Westbrooke was part of Coventry's promotion team, Nicholson somebody fans would actually pay to watch, all we need is another striker and we could well be holding out to as that player wants to bigger contract. For once we seem to have had almost a perfect summer transfers wise, it's hard to believe a poster is questioning what we've done perhaps he's upset BG is actually having a good pre-season. I have not seen any of the players we have signed enough to know if ben is having a good pre-season.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2020 23:22:49 GMT
If we have a really good play-off chasing season the possibility that we might be paying above the new normal will not concern most fans. I just wonder if a glut of good players will be available at much lower salary in the near future. Everything really hinges on most of the new players playing well and spectators being allowed back into football stadiums. Its at least a worthwhile debate in my view.
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Post by stevek192 on Aug 17, 2020 0:10:32 GMT
Bluebutterfly, Why would it be any different to any other year? You seem to be the type of person who finds something to moan about for the sake of it. The fact has been proved over and over again that waiting until the last minute means your preparations fo9r the new season are a waste of time and possibly the reason that most seasons we struggle at the start. The quality we have signed this year appears to me to be of a good quality and I am sure BG said somewhere that we are still better off wages wise than we were last season based on the players we have lost against the new players. You are always going to get some -players that hold out to9 the last minute but no guarantee they would want to come to us. Be satisfied with what we have and get behind the team and the players.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 0:59:19 GMT
Bluebutterfly, Why would it be any different to any other year? You seem to be the type of person who finds something to moan about for the sake of it. The fact has been proved over and over again that waiting until the last minute means your preparations fo9r the new season are a waste of time and possibly the reason that most seasons we struggle at the start. The quality we have signed this year appears to me to be of a good quality and I am sure BG said somewhere that we are still better off wages wise than we were last season based on the players we have lost against the new players. You are always going to get some -players that hold out to9 the last minute but no guarantee they would want to come to us. Be satisfied with what we have and get behind the team and the players. Not sure whats been different this year? The whole year has been weird but maybe its just my imagination? Which signings are quality? just so as i know?
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Post by Jomo on Aug 17, 2020 6:12:42 GMT
Bluebutterfly, Why would it be any different to any other year? You seem to be the type of person who finds something to moan about for the sake of it. The fact has been proved over and over again that waiting until the last minute means your preparations fo9r the new season are a waste of time and possibly the reason that most seasons we struggle at the start. The quality we have signed this year appears to me to be of a good quality and I am sure BG said somewhere that we are still better off wages wise than we were last season based on the players we have lost against the new players. You are always going to get some -players that hold out to9 the last minute but no guarantee they would want to come to us. Be satisfied with what we have and get behind the team and the players. Not sure whats been different this year? The whole year has been weird but maybe its just my imagination? Which signings are quality? just so as i know? Now you're just being obtuse. You know which players people are referring to. 2 examples: Ehmer, Gillingham's captain and highly regarded CB at this level. Zain Westbrooke, highly regarded technical CM who was a key player for a side that got promoted from this League last year. Would you not consider these to be quality signings for us?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 7:22:18 GMT
Not sure whats been different this year? The whole year has been weird but maybe its just my imagination? Which signings are quality? just so as i know? Now you're just being obtuse. You know which players people are referring to. 2 examples: Ehmer, Gillingham's captain and highly regarded CB at this level. Zain Westbrooke, highly regarded technical CM who was a key player for a side that got promoted from this League last year. Would you not consider these to be quality signings for us? The short answer is that they will be good signings if they produce the goods on the pitch for rovers. They seem like decent signings on paper.
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Post by phillistine on Aug 17, 2020 7:31:56 GMT
Any true and successful business leader will plough their own furrough and not allow themselves to be restricted by how others perceive things. It is a known truth that the time to invest in the stock market is when others are bailing out as that is when good profits can be made. There is also a saying that if you do things the same as you have always done them then you will get the same results.
When Man City a very poor relation to Man United made their first signings including Bridge and Bellamy they were accused of buying success and the strategy would not work.
We should applaud the owner for being different from the crowd .
As supporters we are not in possession of all the facts and can only answer the question with hindsight and by looking back at how these investments work and seeing what they achieve. Only then will we know if the strategy of trying to attract better players and backroom staff has worked.
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Post by Topper Gas on Aug 17, 2020 7:57:26 GMT
Bluebutterfly, Why would it be any different to any other year? You seem to be the type of person who finds something to moan about for the sake of it. The fact has been proved over and over again that waiting until the last minute means your preparations fo9r the new season are a waste of time and possibly the reason that most seasons we struggle at the start. The quality we have signed this year appears to me to be of a good quality and I am sure BG said somewhere that we are still better off wages wise than we were last season based on the players we have lost against the new players. You are always going to get some -players that hold out to9 the last minute but no guarantee they would want to come to us. Be satisfied with what we have and get behind the team and the players. Not sure whats been different this year? The whole year has been weird but maybe its just my imagination? Which signings are quality? just so as i know?Your just acting like a total kn0b now, you now as well as the rest of us who look good signings on paper, whether they actually play well in the quarters is anybody's guess.
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Post by Topper Gas on Aug 17, 2020 8:00:42 GMT
How does any poster know nobody else wanted Ehmer? As far as Gillingham would you prefer we us just to sign L2 cast offs like their latest signing from Mansfield? Who are these better players as I can't see many have been suggested on the forum, we've signed on of the best CB's in Ehmer and Westbrooke was part of Coventry's promotion team, Nicholson somebody fans would actually pay to watch, all we need is another striker and we could well be holding out to as that player wants to bigger contract. For once we seem to have had almost a perfect summer transfers wise, it's hard to believe a poster is questioning what we've done perhaps he's upset BG is actually having a good pre-season. I have not seen any of the players we have signed enough to know if ben is having a good pre-season. What's seeing the players got to do with having a good pre-season? BG's having a good one as he's signed a number of players early so they can "gell" by the time the seasons and starts and we've won our first two friendlies, isn't that's what pre-season is all about?
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Post by stevek192 on Aug 17, 2020 8:13:29 GMT
bluebutterfly, It does not take a genius to see that if you sign players at the right age who have a pedigree then you have a better chance of success but NOTHING can guarantee success. It is IMO clearer to see in pre season friendlies if you have a poor team rather than tell if you have a good team. The friendly against Exeter at home two seasons ago when we lost 4-0 was a clear sign we had problems. There were none of those signs in Saturdays friendly. All the players look fairly comfortable on the ball which for me is a good early sign if a player is any good. For me the only negative sign of any kind at the moment is that Jonno has not signed a new contract.Ehmer for me could be the best signing for years and for me answers your question about waiting till the end- others like Westbrooke ,Baldwin,Grant and Nicholson all IMO look like they could be inspired signings. I would much rather have the players in the door being coached and ready than it left to the last minute. DCs signings for me always looked like they were rushed affairs Remember as well that we may still have room for a couple more players if a bargain player is out there nearer the start of the season. Much better to be finalising the squad late rather than be desperate for numbers. The total truth is that nobody knows what will happen and you only have to look at Bury to see that. I remember three years ago thinking they had put together a squad to get or at least chase promotion and yet they ended up being relegated!! On reflection now I was probably a bit harsh on you and the post is a good one to discuss. UTG
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Post by chewbacca on Aug 17, 2020 8:13:43 GMT
Ok it’s a lazy Sunday afternoon so I’ll ask the question. What does sustainability mean to you? What does it mean in today’s football? Is it... matching expenditure to income each year so that you balance the books? Is it... making a small loss that you know you can cover each year? Is it... setting a budget in June trying to keep to it but not worrying if you go outside it? I’d suggest that sustainability for me means the first, matching expenditure to income. But if you have a very rich person who says that they will cover the loss does that make it sustainable because he’s basically saying “I will cover the losses for the next few years” so making it sustainable? I’d like to think you have a plan to: increase your income from match day football, increase the income streams from non-football areas, to use your resources (ground, training facilities, players) to generate more income on a day-to-day basis so that your income over a period of time grows and is not so heavily dependent upon match day income. I’m sure there are other areas, commercial sales, advertising, etc that I’ve not thought of which could really push up your income. I’d also suggest if the salary cap works it will be easier to calculate your player expenditure than it has ever been. So what does sustainability mean in reality? UTG! For me it's not looked at over a single year, I hate stuff like 5 year plans and the ilk but you do need to work to a goal over a set period. Sustainability is about sometimes about initial investment that then needs clawing back over a period. I still think without investment into the clubs infrastructure we'll struggle massively to achieve any sort of sustainability going forward. The stadium is a millstone round our neck.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 8:32:46 GMT
Ok it’s a lazy Sunday afternoon so I’ll ask the question. What does sustainability mean to you? What does it mean in today’s football? Is it... matching expenditure to income each year so that you balance the books? Is it... making a small loss that you know you can cover each year? Is it... setting a budget in June trying to keep to it but not worrying if you go outside it? I’d suggest that sustainability for me means the first, matching expenditure to income. But if you have a very rich person who says that they will cover the loss does that make it sustainable because he’s basically saying “I will cover the losses for the next few years” so making it sustainable? I’d like to think you have a plan to: increase your income from match day football, increase the income streams from non-football areas, to use your resources (ground, training facilities, players) to generate more income on a day-to-day basis so that your income over a period of time grows and is not so heavily dependent upon match day income. I’m sure there are other areas, commercial sales, advertising, etc that I’ve not thought of which could really push up your income. I’d also suggest if the salary cap works it will be easier to calculate your player expenditure than it has ever been. So what does sustainability mean in reality? UTG! For me it's not looked at over a single year, I hate stuff like 5 year plans and the ilk but you do need to work to a goal over a set period. Sustainability is about sometimes about initial investment that then needs clawing back over a period. I still think without investment into the clubs infrastructure we'll struggle massively to achieve any sort of sustainability going forward. The stadium is a millstone round our neck. Exactly. Up front capital investment both in assets and working capital based upon a business plan that delivers to an exit route. It is the discipline of an exit route that drives financial sustainability. Everything else follows. Starter for ten, raise the admission price by £5 in all parts of the ground.
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Post by phillistine on Aug 17, 2020 8:54:14 GMT
If we have a really good play-off chasing season the possibility that we might be paying above the new normal will not concern most fans. ...... Of course there was going to be a new normal. Do you think that Wael and crew did not know that ? why do you think that Rovers were so quick off the mark? it was a deliberate strategy to beat the deadline for the new rules. The reality is that we had a narrow opportunity before the wage cap to get players in. That opportunity has gone and now wages will be driven down to the new normal you refer to. There will be far less movement now as Championship and good League 1 players will stay where they are as there is less cash incentive to uproot family and move on. There has been much talk of the recruitment process and how Rovers had players lined up for quite a long period of time. Do you think they wanted all that work ruined by delaying until the new wage cap and then finding we could not afford the signings? Surely most fans can see that and will not be concerned - after all its Wael's money - not theirs. i for one think they did a good job.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 9:37:32 GMT
Not sure whats been different this year? The whole year has been weird but maybe its just my imagination? Which signings are quality? just so as i know?Your just acting like a total kn0b now, you now as well as the rest of us who look good signings on paper, whether they actually play well in the quarters is anybody's guess. Ok,i will try with you. Which signings are quality?
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Post by warehamgas on Aug 17, 2020 11:21:49 GMT
Ok it’s a lazy Sunday afternoon so I’ll ask the question. What does sustainability mean to you? What does it mean in today’s football? Is it... matching expenditure to income each year so that you balance the books? Is it... making a small loss that you know you can cover each year? Is it... setting a budget in June trying to keep to it but not worrying if you go outside it? I’d suggest that sustainability for me means the first, matching expenditure to income. But if you have a very rich person who says that they will cover the loss does that make it sustainable because he’s basically saying “I will cover the losses for the next few years” so making it sustainable? I’d like to think you have a plan to: increase your income from match day football, increase the income streams from non-football areas, to use your resources (ground, training facilities, players) to generate more income on a day-to-day basis so that your income over a period of time grows and is not so heavily dependent upon match day income. I’m sure there are other areas, commercial sales, advertising, etc that I’ve not thought of which could really push up your income. I’d also suggest if the salary cap works it will be easier to calculate your player expenditure than it has ever been. So what does sustainability mean in reality? UTG! Well posed question! I think that answers to this will vary from person to person. To me, the survival of the club should always be the primary objective, especially for a L1 team and being faced with dire financial consequences of the Covid virus. So how can we be sustainable and survive at the same time. Sustainability therefore comes in many forms for us, e.g. is our fan base sustainable? This may seem an odd question but as hard core fans age and go off to greener pastures, how do they get replaced with new ones? I may be wrong but football generations now will not have that lifetime support for lower league clubs as used to happen in the past. Of course, there will be new and completely loyal fans, week in, week out, supporting the club as can be seen each week, home and away. And I think also that Rovers are very lucky in that our fans stay Gasheads for life, through thick and thin. So for this example, sustainability means keeping the fan numbers and better, increasing them. Just like trees are felled, grow more so that you stay sustainable in future. Promotions, facilities, etc. will help towards this as well. What else makes us sustainable; profitable so no financial worries. No relegation but building and fighting for promotion only? Contracts and players; rethink how players are signed and paid e.g. more commission but less basic? Earn As You Play? 10 year season tickets? Free Transport to home games on special Gas vehicles? Buy Back available to fans to become shareholders; long term planning towards this by owners? SAYE type scheme? Make available full match replays for nominal price after a few days. Just some ideas, some may be no nos, others may take years, etc. Finally, are we currently sustainable as a club? Most fans would say .....? UTG PS On a side note, are we environmentally friendly? All the plastic we generate at home games; beer and drinks glasses, food wrappings, etc. Maybe we cannot get away from this? Great response, yes, in a nutshell lots of thought provoking stuff. Of course you’re correct about different types of sustainability. I guess I was meaning more about financial aspects especially during these times. But you’re correct the other sustainabilities go hand in hand with financial stuff. I hope now we have a proper board of directors in place we are addressing some of these issues. UTG!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 21:36:16 GMT
If we have a really good play-off chasing season the possibility that we might be paying above the new normal will not concern most fans. ...... Of course there was going to be a new normal. Do you think that Wael and crew did not know that ? why do you think that Rovers were so quick off the mark? it was a deliberate strategy to beat the deadline for the new rules. The reality is that we had a narrow opportunity before the wage cap to get players in. That opportunity has gone and now wages will be driven down to the new normal you refer to. There will be far less movement now as Championship and good League 1 players will stay where they are as there is less cash incentive to uproot family and move on. There has been much talk of the recruitment process and how Rovers had players lined up for quite a long period of time. Do you think they wanted all that work ruined by delaying until the new wage cap and then finding we could not afford the signings? Surely most fans can see that and will not be concerned - after all its Wael's money - not theirs. i for one think they did a good job. I accept the argument for getting your transfer business done early but in the year we have finally done that it could actually be a costly error in my view as we may be paying pre-covid salary in the covid era.
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Post by Topper Gas on Aug 17, 2020 21:53:31 GMT
We may be, we may not be, the fact is we've got players in BG wanted and if we have paid over the odds who'll really care if we're in the mix come May?
At the end of the day it's Wael's money wasted not ours, if he's got it all wrong.
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Post by Topper Gas on Aug 17, 2020 21:53:35 GMT
Of course there was going to be a new normal. Do you think that Wael and crew did not know that ? why do you think that Rovers were so quick off the mark? it was a deliberate strategy to beat the deadline for the new rules. The reality is that we had a narrow opportunity before the wage cap to get players in. That opportunity has gone and now wages will be driven down to the new normal you refer to. There will be far less movement now as Championship and good League 1 players will stay where they are as there is less cash incentive to uproot family and move on. There has been much talk of the recruitment process and how Rovers had players lined up for quite a long period of time. Do you think they wanted all that work ruined by delaying until the new wage cap and then finding we could not afford the signings? Surely most fans can see that and will not be concerned - after all its Wael's money - not theirs. i for one think they did a good job. I accept the argument for getting your transfer business done early but in the year we have finally done that it could actually be a costly error in my view as we may be paying pre-covid salary in the covid era. We may be, we may not be, the fact is we've got players in BG wanted and if we have paid over the odds who'll really care if we're in the mix come May? At the end of the day it's Wael's money wasted not ours, if he's got it all wrong.
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