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Post by Jomo on Sept 28, 2020 16:39:45 GMT
Black and white. You are either good or bad at your job. This guy has taken bad to a new level I see you posted this twice, but it was wrong the first time. It's never black and white in life. Some people are good, some are bad, some are average, indifferent, up and down. However you want to call it. Your blanket statements are often OTT, and frankly ridiculous. I agree that BG has done a very bad job though.
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Post by landrover on Sept 28, 2020 16:45:16 GMT
The shots on goal thing holds quite a lot of detail where the devil is hiding. For one, Coughlan’s hallmark was that his side would get a high number of shots on goal per game. Is it any coincidence we won a big number of games by trying to boss the shots statistic rather than the passing stats under him? Also BG’s reign has been fairly consistent so far, not only in terms of points dropped but in terms of the fact that we created sod all under him with last seasons players. Let him get his own players in we were told....and now he has his own team we still create nowt. For me, this is evidence of why changing the players will not change the fundamental issue of Garner being a poor manager and why having his own squad is not going to change as much as people think- Garnerball is based around not scoring goals because he can barely coach a team to even get a shot on target let alone a goal. As someone who thought Coughlan was a chancer I never thought I’d say this but I think I’d rather go back to last seasons punt and shoot approach with a load of committed journeymen than this insipid nonsense that requires us to attempt 20 passes just to achieve sod all. But how many shots on target per game came from JCH rather than Nichols, Reilly and OC etc? GC got lucky when he signed JCH as nothing in his previous scoring record suggested he was going to be such a success, a bit like when we signed Lambert, to replace him with a striker from Bath's level and a player who averaged 1 shot a game last season is sheer madness. I guess Wael had the same views as you on GC problem is it takes decent money to produce a footballing side, Coventry apparently doubled Matt Godden's wages, not done on the cheap like Wael's trying. why was Coughlan lucky? He had worked with JCH at Southend so knew what he was capable of. I would say it’s proof of having a good judgement.
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Post by swissgas on Sept 28, 2020 17:11:34 GMT
We sometimes talk as if deciding to dismiss a management team has no financial consequences but the cost of reaching a financial settlement with Ben Garner and Jack Mesure let alone Kyle Bennett and Abu Ogogo is highly significant. Paying for these mistakes (if that is what they are) could add upwards of £ 500 000 to the losses already being incurred which might actually be more than relegation would cost Rovers in the present circumstances.
And we should get the figures correct in respect of the amount it will cost Wael to capitalise the Dwane Sports loan. On June 19th it was announced that £ 18.4 million was the amount of the Dwane Sports loan. If we take it that Dwane Sports was owned jointly by Wael, Hani and Samer then each would have contributed £ 6.13 million. So if Wael already had a £ 6.13 million stake and Samer was keeping a £1.84 million stake (10%) that would leave £ 10.43 million for Wael to pay his brothers in order to secure 90% of Dwane Sports Ltd.
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 28, 2020 17:18:49 GMT
I guess Wael had the same views as you on GC problem is it takes decent money to produce a footballing side, Coventry apparently doubled Matt Godden's wages, not done on the cheap like Wael's trying. I suspect you might have double standards for what constitutes 'on the cheap'. For Wael it's costing him £20M, for you, it's probably 50p off a double-pack of chocolate digestives. I was obviously referring to the cost of recruiting players who can play football, rather than GC's hoof ball, not paying off the debts he's managed to run up during his tenure. Although will Wael ever learn, SwissGas is now repeating what I posted over the weekend, that sacking BG and appointing a replacement cost the best part of £1m.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Sept 28, 2020 17:33:50 GMT
We sometimes talk as if deciding to dismiss a management team has no financial consequences but the cost of reaching a financial settlement with Ben Garner and Jack Mesure let alone Kyle Bennett and Abu Ogogo is highly significant. Paying for these mistakes (if that is what they are) could add upwards of £ 500 000 to the losses already being incurred which might actually be more than relegation would cost Rovers in the present circumstances. Not as simple as just the cost of relegation though is it. £500k might be one years revenue hit but if you want to get back to where you came you’ll need to invest else you’ll get hit again until you can sneak out. You can’t make a business decision to get relegated and fight your way back (well, you can, but it’s daft) as it’s hinged with so much uncertainty. Besides letting us go down wouldn’t remove the need to get rid of Garner else you’ll next be looking at going down to the conference again. I don’t think we need to battle for relegation this year but the longer we delay the inevitable the more it will cost the club. Need to acknowledge that a mistake has been made and cut the losses.
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Post by Antonio Fargas on Sept 28, 2020 17:37:24 GMT
I suspect you might have double standards for what constitutes 'on the cheap'. For Wael it's costing him £20M, for you, it's probably 50p off a double-pack of chocolate digestives. I was obviously referring to the cost of recruiting players who can play football, rather than GC's hoof ball, not paying off the debts he's managed to run up during his tenure. Sure, but I still don't see how you can call it doing it on the cheap.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 17:47:12 GMT
The shots on goal thing holds quite a lot of detail where the devil is hiding. For one, Coughlan’s hallmark was that his side would get a high number of shots on goal per game. Is it any coincidence we won a big number of games by trying to boss the shots statistic rather than the passing stats under him? Also BG’s reign has been fairly consistent so far, not only in terms of points dropped but in terms of the fact that we created sod all under him with last seasons players. Let him get his own players in we were told....and now he has his own team we still create nowt. For me, this is evidence of why changing the players will not change the fundamental issue of Garner being a poor manager and why having his own squad is not going to change as much as people think- Garnerball is based around not scoring goals because he can barely coach a team to even get a shot on target let alone a goal. As someone who thought Coughlan was a chancer I never thought I’d say this but I think I’d rather go back to last seasons punt and shoot approach with a load of committed journeymen than this insipid nonsense that requires us to attempt 20 passes just to achieve sod all. But how many shots on target per game came from JCH rather than Nichols, Reilly and OC etc? GC got lucky when he signed JCH as nothing in his previous scoring record suggested he was going to be such a success, a bit like when we signed Lambert, to replace him with a striker from Bath's level and a player who averaged 1 shot a game last season is sheer madness. I guess Wael had the same views as you on GC problem is it takes decent money to produce a footballing side, Coventry apparently doubled Matt Godden's wages, not done on the cheap like Wael's trying. JCH was out injured for a lot of last season wasn’t he? We climbed the table with the goals being shared amongst the team for the most part so whilst you can attribute staying up to JCH last season was a different story. Edit just checked: 9 league goals from the start of the season until Coughlan left and he was out injured for a month and a half in that time, so it’s lazy imo to attribute Coughlan’s win ratio last season to JCH.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 18:00:13 GMT
I suspect you might have double standards for what constitutes 'on the cheap'. For Wael it's costing him £20M, for you, it's probably 50p off a double-pack of chocolate digestives. I was obviously referring to the cost of recruiting players who can play football, rather than GC's hoof ball, not paying off the debts he's managed to run up during his tenure. Although will Wael ever learn, SwissGas is now repeating what I posted over the weekend, that sacking BG and appointing a replacement cost the best part of £1m. If that is true then Wael is the biggest clown going. Surely anyone with an ounce of sense would have performance caveats in such a contract especially when dealing with a whiteboard coach who had never managed before. It’s hardly like Garner would baulk at such a contract either- he was desperate for a manager’s job! Honestly, if the reason he can’t be sacked is financial then there are no words and shows how absolutely tin pot this club really is. This club couldn’t run a bloody bath.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Sept 28, 2020 18:19:47 GMT
I was obviously referring to the cost of recruiting players who can play football, rather than GC's hoof ball, not paying off the debts he's managed to run up during his tenure. Although will Wael ever learn, SwissGas is now repeating what I posted over the weekend, that sacking BG and appointing a replacement cost the best part of £1m. If that is true then Wael is the biggest clown going. Surely anyone with an ounce of sense would have performance caveats in such a contract especially when dealing with a whiteboard coach who had never managed before. It’s hardly like Garner would baulk at such a contract either- he was desperate for a manager’s job! Honestly, if the reason he can’t be sacked is financial then there are no words and shows how absolutely tin pot this club really is. This club couldn’t run a bloody bath. Yes, exactly! The cost of relegation would be far more damaging, plus to get back to the place and level we were when BG took over would be the mountain to climb. We're in, or fast getting to a place where we can't afford not to get rid of BG if the threat of relegation looms.
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Post by landrover on Sept 28, 2020 18:30:58 GMT
I was obviously referring to the cost of recruiting players who can play football, rather than GC's hoof ball, not paying off the debts he's managed to run up during his tenure. Although will Wael ever learn, SwissGas is now repeating what I posted over the weekend, that sacking BG and appointing a replacement cost the best part of £1m. If that is true then Wael is the biggest clown going. Surely anyone with an ounce of sense would have performance caveats in such a contract especially when dealing with a whiteboard coach who had never managed before. It’s hardly like Garner would baulk at such a contract either- he was desperate for a manager’s job! Honestly, if the reason he can’t be sacked is financial then there are no words and shows how absolutely tin pot this club really is. This club couldn’t run a bloody bath. We have to assume that Starnes would be the guiding light surely, otherwise what’s the point of him being there. Any compensation/redundancy payment would be dependant on the length of contract remaining. So it might be 40% if two years remained or 25% if it was 1 year, or vice versa. Garner was desperate for the job so wouldn’t have been in a great bargaining position. It’s a myth to think it’s paid up fully.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 18:34:14 GMT
If that is true then Wael is the biggest clown going. Surely anyone with an ounce of sense would have performance caveats in such a contract especially when dealing with a whiteboard coach who had never managed before. It’s hardly like Garner would baulk at such a contract either- he was desperate for a manager’s job! Honestly, if the reason he can’t be sacked is financial then there are no words and shows how absolutely tin pot this club really is. This club couldn’t run a bloody bath. We have to assume that Starnes would be the guiding light surely, otherwise what’s the point of him being there. Any compensation/redundancy payment would be dependant on the length of contract remaining. So it might be 40% if two years remained or 25% if it was 1 year, or vice versa. Garner was desperate for the job so wouldn’t have been in a great bargaining position. It’s a myth to think it’s paid up fully. Surely it would have performance metrics, seeing as Garner is an unknown quantity eg a win ratio below 15% and he basically gets his bus fare back to the Midlands. Like you say, the cards were all in the club’s favour. But then we did give Bennett a 3.5 year contract on ~4K a week so anything is possible with this lot.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Sept 28, 2020 18:39:35 GMT
We sometimes talk as if deciding to dismiss a management team has no financial consequences but the cost of reaching a financial settlement with Ben Garner and Jack Mesure let alone Kyle Bennett and Abu Ogogo is highly significant. Paying for these mistakes (if that is what they are) could add upwards of £ 500 000 to the losses already being incurred which might actually be more than relegation would cost Rovers in the present circumstances. And we should get the figures correct in respect of the amount it will cost Wael to capitalise the Dwane Sports loan. On June 19th it was announced that £ 18.4 million was the amount of the Dwane Sports loan. If we take it that Dwane Sports was owned jointly by Wael, Hani and Samer then each would have contributed £ 6.13 million. So if Wael already had a £ 6.13 million stake and Samer was keeping a £1.84 million stake (10%) that would leave £ 10.43 million for Wael to pay his brothers in order to secure 90% of Dwane Sports Ltd. Accept the point that relinquishing ties costs. I would counter, that can be offset if you remove BG mutually in a nice way now. Then, bring in an experienced third tier manager, preferably with promotion on cv, with the transfer window still open. A new manager would have contacts. It's not too late to rule out any form of success with a new approach this season. This looks to me a much more investable commodity than a failed experiment, so any promotion push could easily recoup moneys spent if we get back to 4th like we were in December? It's a gamble, but would literally pay for itself if it succeeded.
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Post by landrover on Sept 28, 2020 18:55:19 GMT
We have to assume that Starnes would be the guiding light surely, otherwise what’s the point of him being there. Any compensation/redundancy payment would be dependant on the length of contract remaining. So it might be 40% if two years remained or 25% if it was 1 year, or vice versa. Garner was desperate for the job so wouldn’t have been in a great bargaining position. It’s a myth to think it’s paid up fully. Surely it would have performance metrics, seeing as Garner is an unknown quantity eg a win ratio below 15% and he basically gets his bus fare back to the Midlands. Like you say, the cards were all in the club’s favour. But then we did give Bennett a 3.5 year contract on ~4K a week so anything is possible with this lot. If he’s getting sacked, it’s for poor results. So therefore an unrealistic payoff which no manager would agree to. Like I say the package is agreed at the same time as the contract is.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 20:18:53 GMT
Surely it would have performance metrics, seeing as Garner is an unknown quantity eg a win ratio below 15% and he basically gets his bus fare back to the Midlands. Like you say, the cards were all in the club’s favour. But then we did give Bennett a 3.5 year contract on ~4K a week so anything is possible with this lot. If he’s getting sacked, it’s for poor results. So therefore an unrealistic payoff which no manager would agree to. Like I say the package is agreed at the same time as the contract is. Yeah but if you’re Garner and Wael says “So Mr Garner you can appreciate your lack of experience represents a significant risk for this football club, if you want the job the contract stipulates a cursory three months wages severance pay if you fail to achieve X number of wins in X amount of games, take it or leave it” you’d still sign wouldn’t you?
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 28, 2020 20:34:30 GMT
If he’s getting sacked, it’s for poor results. So therefore an unrealistic payoff which no manager would agree to. Like I say the package is agreed at the same time as the contract is. Yeah but if you’re Garner and Wael says “So Mr Garner you can appreciate your lack of experience represents a significant risk for this football club, if you want the job the contract stipulates a cursory three months wages severance pay if you fail to achieve X number of wins in X amount of games, take it or leave it” you’d still sign wouldn’t you? What happens if he laughed at that suggestion and said he wanted 12 months like every other L1 manager? I also can't see JM quitting Chelsea if his payoff was just going to be 3 months salary if BG failed? Although it wouldn't surprise me if JM replaced BG if he was sacked, although Mayer is perhaps hanging around for that gig as well!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 20:50:21 GMT
Yeah but if you’re Garner and Wael says “So Mr Garner you can appreciate your lack of experience represents a significant risk for this football club, if you want the job the contract stipulates a cursory three months wages severance pay if you fail to achieve X number of wins in X amount of games, take it or leave it” you’d still sign wouldn’t you? What happens if he laughed at that suggestion and said he wanted 12 months like every other L1 manager? I also can't see JM quitting Chelsea if his payoff was just going to be 3 months salary if BG failed? Although it wouldn't surprise me if JM replaced BG if he was sacked, although Mayer is perhaps hanging around for that gig as well! Do you think he would risk his big break, at a league one club that was 4th in the table (so good chance of an instant promotion) because we wanted to play safe on the compro? (Also iirc he wasn’t in work having just left that Indian team). He’d have bit your hand off. Mesure perhaps had more to lose, already in work at a top club but again what chance was he going to get experience in senior match day football at league one level? How many academy coaches get opportunities like that? The club was in a great position to insure itself against failure. I would hope it did. Just writing this out makes me really annoyed that he could walk away with a years wages with a possible win ratio of less than 10%, absolute robbery that would be.
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Post by landrover on Sept 28, 2020 20:52:21 GMT
You’ve just saved me a post. Agree with all of that.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Sept 28, 2020 20:54:08 GMT
What happens if he laughed at that suggestion and said he wanted 12 months like every other L1 manager? I also can't see JM quitting Chelsea if his payoff was just going to be 3 months salary if BG failed? Although it wouldn't surprise me if JM replaced BG if he was sacked, although Mayer is perhaps hanging around for that gig as well! Do you think he would risk his big break, at a league one club that was 4th in the table (so good chance of an instant promotion) because we wanted to play safe on the compro? (Also iirc he wasn’t in work having just left that Indian team). He’d have bit your hand off. Mesure perhaps had more to lose, already in work at a top club but again what chance was he going to get experience in senior match day football at league one level? How many academy coaches get opportunities like that? The club was in a great position to insure itself against failure. I would hope it did. Just writing this out makes me really annoyed that he could walk away with a years wages with a possible win ratio of less than 10%, absolute robbery that would be. He surely can't be making much either. I'd be annoyed if he was on anywhere near as much as DC was.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 21:40:22 GMT
Do you think he would risk his big break, at a league one club that was 4th in the table (so good chance of an instant promotion) because we wanted to play safe on the compro? (Also iirc he wasn’t in work having just left that Indian team). He’d have bit your hand off. Mesure perhaps had more to lose, already in work at a top club but again what chance was he going to get experience in senior match day football at league one level? How many academy coaches get opportunities like that? The club was in a great position to insure itself against failure. I would hope it did. Just writing this out makes me really annoyed that he could walk away with a years wages with a possible win ratio of less than 10%, absolute robbery that would be. He surely can't be making much either. I'd be annoyed if he was on anywhere near as much as DC was. Seeing their names juxtaposed makes me sad. DC paid his dues in football, worked his way up then got two promotions with us yet wasn’t given the facilities. Garner strolls in to the club DC helped to build up with no experience to his name and looks like he will benefit from a new training ground even though he has produced nothing on the pitch to justify his time here so far. Yeah yeah, I know, life isn’t fair 😢
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Post by playtowin on Sept 29, 2020 6:50:19 GMT
Yes everyone has a different opinion but it is down to Wael what happens. I started watching rovers mid 80’s and just got to see one game at eastville. I,m 48 now and in those 35 years watching Rovers I’ve seen us in the Championship for 3 seasons and play some cracking football under Holloway. Aside from that it has been year after year of mediocrity and failure( including our stadium). In those 35 years we have not only failed to keep up with other team but have actually fallen further behind. DC worked a miracle getting us to league one. If we get relegated again how many years will we be down there 5 years/ 10 years? I used to wonder if rovers would get in the premier league in my lifetime. I am now wondering if we’ll ever see championship football again in my lifetime.( I’ve kinda given up hope on a new stadium) That’s why Wael needs to think long and hard about this. I will be forever grateful for his investment in the club and who knows where we would be without him. However the collapse of the UWE was a bitter pill to take and Relegation would be yet another hard bodyblow to take. I still think it was strange how Coughlin left. 4th in the league and he goes to manage in a league below, not sure if something like that has ever happened before with any other team. Ben came in and I bought into the whole project thing and it seemed to make sense. What we have seen since is complete failure. We could be out of sight at the bottom before Garner goes. For me, we just can’t go on any longer with Garner. We will be giving ourselves a Mountain to climb. This does remind of the fact that at Eastville rovers were Tennants and had no real say in the stadium. We also sold the only asset hambrook training ground. Twerton park rovers were Tennants and as such had limited ability to upgrade the stadium. Upon first returning to bristol , rovers were co owners of the stadium so had some ability to upgrade the ground. HOWEVER.after sole ownership of the stadium became fact there were no more excuses. Virtually every other club managed ground rebuilds or new stadiums. The rovers boards FAILED completely on this front whilst every other club passed us by. Then they throw up the excuse we are limited in our success because of the stadium. Well whose fault was that !!! Wael is taking the right steps forward with the training ground complex. Well done and thank you for that. However, the bottom line is the stadium the club play in. If previous boards had just done slow rebuilds of stands at the mem the club would be in better shape now no doubt. This comes full circle to BG he is looking at the big future dream forgetting what happens today may stop the dream ever happening.
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