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Post by axegas on Sept 6, 2020 20:24:49 GMT
Cup games, poor performances, season openers, the first five games, whatever. They all count and Garner can be legitimately critiqued off of them, this is a forum after all.
I just don't think you can just carry over Garner's record from last year as if nothing has happened, keep it in the back of your mind yes but treating it like no time has gone by and nothing has changed between the Sunderland home game last season and the Ipswich league cup game is slightly unreasonable for me.
I think this season is mostly a clean slate for BG, he's been allowed to make a lot of new signings in the area's he sees fit, he's brought in his own assistant manager, he's had a whole preseason to try and coach what he wants into his players.
With that in mind, jumping the gun after one game is counterproductive. We may have just had an off day, Ipswich might just have a really really good team this year who knows? I get that people are really impatient for Ben to turn things around but realistically it's going to take more than one cup game to get an inkling as to if he really can or not.
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Post by althepirate on Sept 6, 2020 20:25:00 GMT
I think it's fair to say BG was brought in primarily for the reason Wael wanted the club to go in a completely different direction in regards to philosophy. It's no real surprise that the majority of the squad he inherited from last year are no longer here or not wanted, Craig, THD, Rollin, Ollie Clarke, Sercombe, Ogogo, Bennett, and now JCH. Surely he deserves time, especially a few league games this term, that's all i'm saying. I hope this is the philosophy the club has as a blueprint moving forward as well, so that even if BG does completely fail, the next guy can come in, and then the next guy etc, etc, without having complete overhauls of the squad everytime a manager goes. The Swansea, Brentford et al type of method I don't think you and the OP are a million miles away as you think he deserves time, I'm sure the majority of us agree. The question is 'How much?' and that is the question from the OP.It's also a question the board will be asking if results are very poor in the future. For me it depends on results, position in the table, mood of the camp and confidence in the manager, but no efficient business would bury their head in the sand long term, reality must be faced.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Sept 6, 2020 20:26:16 GMT
I'm not convinced our manager is as much in control of contracts, signings and departures as people think. That's strange, as I thought 'giving him 10 matches' was the excuse to let him formulate his own squad? Otherwise why give him any time at all? You got me there. I'd have sacked him already so what do I know. He will probably turn out to be brilliant and everyone will remind me I was wrong.
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Post by Gas Go Marching In on Sept 6, 2020 20:32:15 GMT
That's strange, as I thought 'giving him 10 matches' was the excuse to let him formulate his own squad? Otherwise why give him any time at all? You got me there. I'd have sacked him already so what do I know. He will probably turn out to be brilliant and everyone will remind me I was wrong. I hope we look a pair of coonts Hugo.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Sept 6, 2020 20:32:46 GMT
Cup games, poor performances, season openers, the first five games, whatever. They all count and Garner can be legitimately critiqued off of them, this is a forum after all. I just don't think you can just carry over Garner's record from last year as if nothing has happened, keep it in the back of your mind yes but treating it like no time has gone by and nothing has changed between the Sunderland home game last season and the Ipswich league cup game is slightly unreasonable for me. I think this season is mostly a clean slate for BG, he's been allowed to make a lot of new signings in the area's he seeks fit, he's brought in his own assistant manager, he's had a whole preseason to try and coach what he want's into his players. With that in mind, jumping the gun after one game is counterproductive. We may have just had an off day, Ipswich might just have a really really good team this year who knows? I get that people are really impatient for Ben to turn things around but realistically it's going to take more than one cup to get an inkling as to if he really can or not. Ah ok, I see how it works now. Stats..... disregard 17 matches until we win. Clean slate? It's the same formation mistakes, excuses (journey?), Playing one or no strikers, ........ Southend away, anyone? Seriously, axe..... what (apart from cliché) do you really feel BG has? (to make the fanbase confident we will become a winning, successful strong team in this division this season)?
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Post by gasandelectricity on Sept 6, 2020 20:33:40 GMT
I agree with the clubs philosophy behind hiring the guy in the first place.
I can sympathise with the appointment of Ben Garner. I can see why they would be taken in by his sales pitch of his vision for the club.
I can sympathise with the club giving him ten games to prove himself after letting him see out the summer transfer window and that moving him on would be seen to be impatient
I do not think he’s the right person for the job.
I do not think he will prove any of his doubters wrong.
I do think he’ll be gone before christmas
I don’t think if he did go, that would be an abandonment of the clubs strategy which is most certainly the correct one.
I do not think think at this point there’s anything wrong with supporters summising how well they think he has done to date in this season or seasons gone.
I’d like to think his own perception of how sh** we’ve been since he’s been in charge will be a bigger driver for him to do well than whatever level of support he gets on an online Internet forum.
The only thing I think is pathetic is blind faith in the manager and the decisions regards the board in his appointment. Putting the whole BG situation aside for one second - does supporting a bad decision by the club make you a better supporter than I if I decide to call the club out for it?
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Post by socrates on Sept 6, 2020 20:40:13 GMT
Cup games, poor performances, season openers, the first five games, whatever. They all count and Garner can be legitimately critiqued off of them, this is a forum after all. I just don't think you can just carry over Garner's record from last year as if nothing has happened, keep it in the back of your mind yes but treating it like no time has gone by and nothing has changed between the Sunderland home game last season and the Ipswich league cup game is slightly unreasonable for me. I think this season is mostly a clean slate for BG, he's been allowed to make a lot of new signings in the area's he seeks fit, he's brought in his own assistant manager, he's had a whole preseason to try and coach what he want's into his players. With that in mind, jumping the gun after one game is counterproductive. We may have just had an off day, Ipswich might just have a really really good team this year who knows? I get that people are really impatient for Ben to turn things around but realistically it's going to take more than one cup to get an inkling as to if he really can or not. Totally agree with this but also don’t feel that anything he’s doing or saying is giving me any confidence. Other than Sunderland at home we’ve basically been utter sh**e since he’s been here. I still think we should give him more time I’m not calling for his head but I’d be amazed and completely over the moon if he turns it around. I just can’t see it.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Sept 6, 2020 20:41:12 GMT
What's all this giving ten games malarkey? He's had 18!? Why is the thread pathetic when you contribute to it? Why is it no one can come up with anything positive apart from new signings, yet not address the jch debacle of not playing striker because he let our only striker leave without replacement?Why is BG continuously playing a 3 at the back away to teams that plays two up front at home? Why is it I'm watching the same Southend match v Ipshit, and no one can reasonably explain that we appear to have made no progress since? (Apart from pathetic, covid, journey, putting a striker on second half after we have already conceded 2, excuses,?)? So would you have turned down P'boro offer and then been stuck with a disgruntled JCH and then lost him for peanuts in January? Hopefully we'll have striker or two in for our first league game. BG's decided he's going to play 3 at the back, the 3 just need to wake up and play rather than change the formation for every match, something DC got slaughtered for with his "projects". Nope. It's not as binary as you suggest. Why couldn't we have stalled Peterborough? And then in interim, signed a replacement?? Peterborough did. Brentford did. We didn't.. Poor business by us. You say 3 should wake up and play....ok, maybe you're right. That's the captain. Vice captain. And someone whom was sold for £500k a few years ago..? If they haven't woken up by 5 pre season friendly opportunities, who's at fault for playing them?
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Post by bluebiro on Sept 6, 2020 20:41:58 GMT
The model of snapping up rejects and selling them in will only work if the team is winning. That won't happen with this guy and could be the path to destruction with him.let the guy jog on back to a premier league team where he can coach kids again
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Post by Gas Go Marching In on Sept 6, 2020 20:42:22 GMT
Just watched the highlights again from yesterday. What was constantly doing us was the high press from us. Once Ipswich beat the high press and got in behind, our CBs were too slow to deal with the pace.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Sept 6, 2020 20:44:09 GMT
Just watched the highlights again from yesterday. What was constantly doing us was the high press from us. Once Ipswich beat the high press and got in behind, our CBs were too slow to deal with the pace. Wonder what would have happened if we played 4 at the back to help counter their pace?
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Post by axegas on Sept 6, 2020 20:46:06 GMT
Cup games, poor performances, season openers, the first five games, whatever. They all count and Garner can be legitimately critiqued off of them, this is a forum after all. I just don't think you can just carry over Garner's record from last year as if nothing has happened, keep it in the back of your mind yes but treating it like no time has gone by and nothing has changed between the Sunderland home game last season and the Ipswich league cup game is slightly unreasonable for me. I think this season is mostly a clean slate for BG, he's been allowed to make a lot of new signings in the area's he seeks fit, he's brought in his own assistant manager, he's had a whole preseason to try and coach what he want's into his players. With that in mind, jumping the gun after one game is counterproductive. We may have just had an off day, Ipswich might just have a really really good team this year who knows? I get that people are really impatient for Ben to turn things around but realistically it's going to take more than one cup to get an inkling as to if he really can or not. Ah ok, I see how it works now. Stats..... disregard 17 matches until we win. Clean slate? It's the same formation mistakes, excuses (journey?), Playing one or no strikers, ........ Southend away, anyone? Seriously, axe..... what (apart from cliché) do you really feel BG has? (to make the fanbase confident we will become a winning, successful strong team in this division this season)? I'm not saying disregard the first 17 games until we win, I'd be at the front leading the pitch forked mob if that were to happen. Just saying give the guy a chance this season. So much time has past since the last game of last season and so much change has happened to the football club that I do think this season is a bit of a clean slate for Garner. I get your point about the striker, it's not a decision I would of made personally but I do think Garner was somewhat forced into it with JCH leaving, Daly being injured and Ayunga being largely unproven in professional football. JML did a sufficient enough job there against Cardiff to make me see why Garner took the gamble. I'll probably have to get my hard hat on for saying this but I think what Garner has is a vision for the football club that perfectly lines up with what Wael wants for it. Developing younger players for fees, playing football that is more pleasing on the eye than what we've been served up in the past, more of a tracksuit manager that will leave the boardroom side of things for Starnes/Widdrington/Gorringe/himself to get on with. If and it is a big If, Garner can walk the walk as well as talking the talk, it's a vision that I can get on board with as well. Wael won't be quick to get rid of him IMO because he knows that dismissing Garner is a huge blow to his vision for the club being realised. Just my tuppence.
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Post by yetigas on Sept 6, 2020 20:47:00 GMT
The really sad thing is that some on here seem to want BG to fail. There seems to be a nostalgia for the football under GC which is hilarious given how many people on here said they would stop attending matches until he was replaced. DC was seen as a hero/legend/'one of us' because he got two promotions - but he started poorly and was found out in League 1. I would gently suggest that BG is going nowhere and that we should all be patient and support him as the new signings settle in. Threads like this after one match say more about the fans than the manager! I don’t think anyone wants Garner to fail, as they would mean our team is failing; but people are quite rightly concerned because of what‘S happened since he took over. Maybe its not you who wants him to fail which is good. But the tone of some posts saying 'he's not one of us' etc suggests to me that some people just don't like him as a person. Of course we all want to see Rovers win games and we are disappointed when we don't. But us oldies have lowered our expectations long ago and personally I like this new style of football and am looking forward to seeing it develop with the new players - and it will!
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Sept 6, 2020 20:54:14 GMT
Ah ok, I see how it works now. Stats..... disregard 17 matches until we win. Clean slate? It's the same formation mistakes, excuses (journey?), Playing one or no strikers, ........ Southend away, anyone? Seriously, axe..... what (apart from cliché) do you really feel BG has? (to make the fanbase confident we will become a winning, successful strong team in this division this season)? I'm not saying disregard the first 17 games until we win, I'd be at the front leading the pitch forked mob if that were to happen. Just saying give the guy a chance this season. So much time has past since the last game of last season and so much change has happened to the football club that I do think this season is a bit of a clean slate for Garner. I get your point about the striker, it's not a decision I would of made personally but I do think Garner was somewhat forced into it with JCH leaving, Daly being injured and Ayunga being largely unproven in professional football. JML did a sufficient enough job there against Cardiff to make me see why Garner took the gamble. I'll probably have to get my hard hat on for saying this but I think what Garner has is a vision for the football club that perfectly lines up with what Wael wants for it. Developing younger players for fees, playing football that is more pleasing on the eye than what we've been served up in the past, more of a tracksuit manager that will leave the boardroom side of things for Starnes/Widdrington/Gorringe/himself to get on with. If and it is a big If, Garner can walk the walk as well as talking the talk, it's a vision that I can get on board with as well. Wael won't be quick to get rid of him IMO because he knows that dismissing Garner is a huge blow to his vision for the club being realised. Just my tuppence. Fair play, you may be correct in your evaluation, but I note that nothing in the post refers to anything concrete. It's just the same as anything else posted.... wishful, optimistic, blind faith and hopefulness. There's nothing wrong with this, it's not a critique and find it rather charming because in that lollipop world, everything is fine and dandy. Just..... I'm not paying for it and will eventually revoke my funds because watching my club on Saturday hurt. Season ticket, helpline, 50/50 and even a burnt pasty will be forfeited because it's been like this for 2020 (apart from the Sunderland surprise).
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Post by olskooltoteender on Sept 6, 2020 21:11:14 GMT
I don’t think anyone wants Garner to fail, as they would mean our team is failing; but people are quite rightly concerned because of what‘S happened since he took over. Maybe its not you who wants him to fail which is good. But the tone of some posts saying 'he's not one of us' etc suggests to me that some people just don't like him as a person. Of course we all want to see Rovers win games and we are disappointed when we don't. But us oldies have lowered our expectations long ago and personally I like this new style of football and am looking forward to seeing it develop with the new players - and it will! Fair enough - you’re entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine - I really hope I get proved wrong and we have a really good season and go on to bigger & better things . . . But although I agree with the direction that Wael seems to want to take the club in, I’m not convinced Garner is the man to do it. And by the way, I’m 57 so pretty much an “oldie” myself - used to walk to Eastville every home game from Staple Hill . . .
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 6, 2020 21:23:54 GMT
So would you have turned down P'boro offer and then been stuck with a disgruntled JCH and then lost him for peanuts in January? Hopefully we'll have striker or two in for our first league game. BG's decided he's going to play 3 at the back, the 3 just need to wake up and play rather than change the formation for every match, something DC got slaughtered for with his "projects". Nope. It's not as binary as you suggest. Why couldn't we have stalled Peterborough? And then in interim, signed a replacement?? Peterborough did. Brentford did. We didn't.. Poor business by us. You say 3 should wake up and play....ok, maybe you're right. That's the captain. Vice captain. And someone whom was sold for £500k a few years ago..? If they haven't woken up by 5 pre season friendly opportunities, who's at fault for playing them? The 3 players chosen all seemed to have played well in the pre-season games and were the 3 most fans chose before the game. Why they didn't perform yesterday is probably as much a mystery to BG as the rest of us.
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Post by socrates on Sept 6, 2020 21:35:48 GMT
So would you have turned down P'boro offer and then been stuck with a disgruntled JCH and then lost him for peanuts in January? Hopefully we'll have striker or two in for our first league game. BG's decided he's going to play 3 at the back, the 3 just need to wake up and play rather than change the formation for every match, something DC got slaughtered for with his "projects". Nope. It's not as binary as you suggest. Why couldn't we have stalled Peterborough? And then in interim, signed a replacement?? Peterborough did. Brentford did. We didn't.. Poor business by us. You say 3 should wake up and play....ok, maybe you're right. That's the captain. Vice captain. And someone whom was sold for £500k a few years ago..? If they haven't woken up by 5 pre season friendly opportunities, who's at fault for playing them? 3 big centre half’s all quite slow, not much variation in there. As I said in another thread I think combinations are so important regarding partnerships around the pitch , the players playing next to big slower players need to be nippy and quick for example that way you get a good overall Strength and what we had on Saturday was three big slow central defenders who all looked slower on the turn than every Ipswich forward attacking them.
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Post by Gas Go Marching In on Sept 6, 2020 21:39:13 GMT
Nope. It's not as binary as you suggest. Why couldn't we have stalled Peterborough? And then in interim, signed a replacement?? Peterborough did. Brentford did. We didn't.. Poor business by us. You say 3 should wake up and play....ok, maybe you're right. That's the captain. Vice captain. And someone whom was sold for £500k a few years ago..? If they haven't woken up by 5 pre season friendly opportunities, who's at fault for playing them? 3 big centre half’s all quite slow, not much variation in there. As I said in another thread I think combinations are so important regarding partnerships around the pitch , the players playing next to big slower players need to be nippy and quick for example that way you get a good overall Strength and what we had on Saturday was three big slow central defenders who all looked slower on the turn than every Ipswich forward attacking them. Agreed, they seemed too similar, that along with playing a high press leaving them highly at risk to facing any pace behind them. Also Kilgour playing out of position didn't help matters. Baldwin had a shocker but will give him benefit of the doubt.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2020 21:43:22 GMT
agreed and that doesn't include cup games Cool. Poor performances last season dont count. Poor performances dont count in pre season. Poor performances dont count in cup games. I have lowered my standards accordingly. Cheers for clearing that up. I think it would probably be helpful for everyone if the s Garner Defence Committee could draw up a list of the fixtures in the first 20 that we CAN judge him on and pin it as a sticky to the top of the forum. I have a feeling I know how it will start off.... Ipswich A (league cup) - doesn’t count, cup game and a big team expected to challenge Walsall - H (league trophy) - doesn’t count, cup game Sunderland A (league) - doesn’t count, big team expected to challenge Ipswich H (league) - doesn’t count, big team expected to challenge Doncaster A (league) - doesn’t count, bogey ground. How about the rest?
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Post by biggles on Sept 6, 2020 21:44:57 GMT
he is the new messiah
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