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Post by Gasshole on Sept 29, 2020 20:53:26 GMT
I think he’ll get us to the Championship . I’ve also got an Occasional table that I use everyday.
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Post by heartofgas on Sept 29, 2020 21:15:24 GMT
I’m not sure you can use our time in league one as an example of sustainability. Prior to Dwane sports taking over the debt was some 3-5 million. Then Dwane took over pretty much just before our run in league one and during that time the debt rocketed to some 18 million with Wael telling us ~97p in the pound was going on player wages. A debt increase of some 10 million plus just to stand still in league one! Of course that doesn’t mean we have to throw the baby out with the bath water and subsist (in a footballing sense) on inexperienced youth . Other clubs smaller than us seem to afford older pros. We just need to be smarter about how we spend our money. That being said perhaps we are also hampered by location. It’s probably easier for northern clubs smaller than us to pick up experience cheaper because the stakes are lower for those players than moving down south where the cost of living is greater and there are less clubs at our level nearby if it doesn’t work out. So perhaps that’s part of the reason why we end up paying over the odds. Either way I don’t think this desire to build the club up on youth whilst being competitive at league one is going to work out long term. The signs are already there that we are cannon fodder for sides with a bit of nous. 97p in the pound was spent on the club's overall employee wages not just players wages, which were capped at 60% of turnover. GC put a team together which was clearly capable of winning games at this level, there's no logic in throwing away what he'd built to start again with an inexperienced manager trying to play a totally different style of football with basically inexperienced players. What i don’t understand is how we managed to rack up so much debt. When the club was sold the debt had built from UWE and court costs and loans. Operationally I didn’t think we were making much of a loss at all. In the space of 4 years we became 24 mil in debt so an increase of 20 mil. I dont know if this included the initial purchase price of the club in 2016. Even taking that out we will have lost an extra 10 mil or 2.5 mil per year. What operationally has caused that. We’ve had bigger crowds and much increased revenue since 2016. I cant believe wages costs have gone up that much. Additionally we’re getting something like an extra half a million per year from being in league 1. I haven’t looked at the annual financial figures so it maybe clear in there. Or maybe it shoes just what a shoestring we were on under higgs. Is a little worrying though as I don’t think Wael will have the means (even if he has the will) to clear 10 mil of debt every few years.
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Post by Westy on Sept 29, 2020 21:55:37 GMT
what? Because 65% feel differently than you you brand that stupid racists? I think yes, that is how it works. Too racist to know what you're doing. Second vote please! You are right O2, that is how it works. I noticed that in 2016
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Post by stuart1974 on Sept 29, 2020 23:14:34 GMT
97p in the pound was spent on the club's overall employee wages not just players wages, which were capped at 60% of turnover. GC put a team together which was clearly capable of winning games at this level, there's no logic in throwing away what he'd built to start again with an inexperienced manager trying to play a totally different style of football with basically inexperienced players. What i don’t understand is how we managed to rack up so much debt. When the club was sold the debt had built from UWE and court costs and loans. Operationally I didn’t think we were making much of a loss at all. In the space of 4 years we became 24 mil in debt so an increase of 20 mil. I dont know if this included the initial purchase price of the club in 2016. Even taking that out we will have lost an extra 10 mil or 2.5 mil per year. What operationally has caused that. We’ve had bigger crowds and much increased revenue since 2016. I cant believe wages costs have gone up that much. Additionally we’re getting something like an extra half a million per year from being in league 1. I haven’t looked at the annual financial figures so it maybe clear in there. Or maybe it shoes just what a shoestring we were on under higgs. Is a little worrying though as I don’t think Wael will have the means (even if he has the will) to clear 10 mil of debt every few years. Please feel free to double check my figures, the headlines in the accounts going back to 2013 are: Turnover 2013 - £3.8m 2014 - £4.3m 2015 - £3.5m 2016 - £4.7m 2017 - £6.2m 2018 - £5.8m 2019 - £6.3m Expenses 2013 - £4.9m 2014 - £5.3m 2015 - £4.5m 2016 - £7.9m 2017 - £9.2m 2018 - £8.9m 2019 - £9.3m Losses therefore 2013 - £1.1m 2014 - £1.0m 2015 - £1.0m 2016 - £3.2m (inc. write off of £2.3m loan) 2017 - £3.0m (inc. write off of £900k UWE expenses) 2018 - £3.1m 2019 - £4.1m (inc. £700k interest) Debt 2013 - £2.5m 2014 - £3.0m 2015 - £4.0m 2016 - £6.8m 2017 - £9.9m 2018 - £13.1m 2019 - £17.2m The increase in the operating expenses in 2017 was put down to increased budget and the expansion of the academy and development squad (according to the Chairman's Report). We were never £24m in debt, that is the accumulated losses and did not take into account the share holdings.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 23:47:57 GMT
97p in the pound was spent on the club's overall employee wages not just players wages, which were capped at 60% of turnover. GC put a team together which was clearly capable of winning games at this level, there's no logic in throwing away what he'd built to start again with an inexperienced manager trying to play a totally different style of football with basically inexperienced players. What i don’t understand is how we managed to rack up so much debt. When the club was sold the debt had built from UWE and court costs and loans. Operationally I didn’t think we were making much of a loss at all. In the space of 4 years we became 24 mil in debt so an increase of 20 mil. I dont know if this included the initial purchase price of the club in 2016. Even taking that out we will have lost an extra 10 mil or 2.5 mil per year. What operationally has caused that. We’ve had bigger crowds and much increased revenue since 2016. I cant believe wages costs have gone up that much. Additionally we’re getting something like an extra half a million per year from being in league 1. I haven’t looked at the annual financial figures so it maybe clear in there. Or maybe it shoes just what a shoestring we were on under higgs. Is a little worrying though as I don’t think Wael will have the means (even if he has the will) to clear 10 mil of debt every few years. Run on a shoestring? Jeff Hughes said we paid good wages. You and he can’t both be right. I reckon we spent beyond our means under Higgs, especially during the January windows when the directors would always dig deep to find signings to keep us up. That spending, however, was cranked up to 11 under Wael until recent times when the debt got out of control. It’s noticeable that although the debt has been paid off there is no extra funds for an expensive striker so I assume the money tree has been well and truly cut down and our cloth shall from now on be cut with inexperienced youth and lower league players that we hope will come good.
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Post by Hugh Jarsole on Sept 30, 2020 0:49:46 GMT
I’m not sure you can use our time in league one as an example of sustainability. Prior to Dwane sports taking over the debt was some 3-5 million. Then Dwane took over pretty much just before our run in league one and during that time the debt rocketed to some 18 million with Wael telling us ~97p in the pound was going on player wages. A debt increase of some 10 million plus just to stand still in league one! Of course that doesn’t mean we have to throw the baby out with the bath water and subsist (in a footballing sense) on inexperienced youth . Other clubs smaller than us seem to afford older pros. We just need to be smarter about how we spend our money. That being said perhaps we are also hampered by location. It’s probably easier for northern clubs smaller than us to pick up experience cheaper because the stakes are lower for those players than moving down south where the cost of living is greater and there are less clubs at our level nearby if it doesn’t work out. So perhaps that’s part of the reason why we end up paying over the odds. Either way I don’t think this desire to build the club up on youth whilst being competitive at league one is going to work out long term. The signs are already there that we are cannon fodder for sides with a bit of nous. 97p in the pound was spent on the club's overall employee wages not just players wages, which were capped at 60% of turnover. GC put a team together which was clearly capable of winning games at this level, there's no logic in throwing away what he'd built to start again with an inexperienced manager trying to play a totally different style of football with basically inexperienced players. Theres some nicely written stuff here, but i have to be honest when people start harping on about the good old days of GC it kind of gets my goat, yes we got results playing crap football that let's be honest, the only joy was the score line not the beautiful way we played and outclassed the other team, secondly, we were punching, i mean we were REALLY punching, some games we got results in wasn't because we played brilliantly, but the other team played terribly, lastly, and most importantly, he threw us under the bus, yes even those that loved and still love him, he threw you under the bus, he showed zero loyalty to us and just uped and left when it was most convenient to him and least convenient to us. I find the people who harp on about GC are usually the same ones the go on about how WE should never have let JCH go, like WE had a choice? he went because he wanted to not because we kicked him out, theres not much we can do about that apart from get over it
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Post by goodnightirene1883 on Sept 30, 2020 6:57:21 GMT
Wow i just took another look at the poll and a lot more with the 8 games point of view than last time i looked its a lot closer than I initially expected
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Post by socrates on Sept 30, 2020 7:03:17 GMT
97p in the pound was spent on the club's overall employee wages not just players wages, which were capped at 60% of turnover. GC put a team together which was clearly capable of winning games at this level, there's no logic in throwing away what he'd built to start again with an inexperienced manager trying to play a totally different style of football with basically inexperienced players. Theres some nicely written stuff here, but i have to be honest when people start harping on about the good old days of GC it kind of gets my goat, yes we got results playing crap football that let's be honest, the only joy was the score line not the beautiful way we played and outclassed the other team, secondly, we were punching, i mean we were REALLY punching, some games we got results in wasn't because we played brilliantly, but the other team played terribly, lastly, and most importantly, he threw us under the bus, yes even those that loved and still love him, he threw you under the bus, he showed zero loyalty to us and just uped and left when it was most convenient to him and least convenient to us. I find the people who harp on about GC are usually the same ones the go on about how WE should never have let JCH go, like WE had a choice? he went because he wanted to not because we kicked him out, theres not much we can do about that apart from get over it Nobody knows for sure why he left , so far all we’ve got is his word. Unless you know any different and if you do 100% then please tell.
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Post by heartofgas on Sept 30, 2020 7:30:26 GMT
What i don’t understand is how we managed to rack up so much debt. When the club was sold the debt had built from UWE and court costs and loans. Operationally I didn’t think we were making much of a loss at all. In the space of 4 years we became 24 mil in debt so an increase of 20 mil. I dont know if this included the initial purchase price of the club in 2016. Even taking that out we will have lost an extra 10 mil or 2.5 mil per year. What operationally has caused that. We’ve had bigger crowds and much increased revenue since 2016. I cant believe wages costs have gone up that much. Additionally we’re getting something like an extra half a million per year from being in league 1. I haven’t looked at the annual financial figures so it maybe clear in there. Or maybe it shoes just what a shoestring we were on under higgs. Is a little worrying though as I don’t think Wael will have the means (even if he has the will) to clear 10 mil of debt every few years. Please feel free to double check my figures, the headlines in the accounts going back to 2013 are: Turnover 2013 - £3.8m 2014 - £4.3m 2015 - £3.5m 2016 - £4.7m 2017 - £6.2m 2018 - £5.8m 2019 - £6.3m Expenses 2013 - £4.9m 2014 - £5.3m 2015 - £4.5m 2016 - £7.9m 2017 - £9.2m 2018 - £8.9m 2019 - £9.3m Losses therefore 2013 - £1.1m 2014 - £1.0m 2015 - £1.0m 2016 - £3.2m (inc. write off of £2.3m loan) 2017 - £3.0m (inc. write off of £900k UWE expenses) 2018 - £3.1m 2019 - £4.1m (inc. £700k interest) Debt 2013 - £2.5m 2014 - £3.0m 2015 - £4.0m 2016 - £6.8m 2017 - £9.9m 2018 - £13.1m 2019 - £17.2m The increase in the operating expenses in 2017 was put down to increased budget and the expansion of the academy and development squad (according to the Chairman's Report). We were never £24m in debt, that is the accumulated losses and did not take into account the share holdings. Thanks for figures, interesting. Looking at the expenses they seem a worry. I wonder how this compares to other clubs. The revenue seems to have increased in line but overall we have amplified our losses. When Dunford was chairman he said that we needed a 9k gate to break even. Under Wael we were told 15k gate to break even. I guess these losses explain that. It certainly doesn’t seem to be a good financial situation to be in if you want sustainability. I think it also gives an understanding of why the money from the jch transfer will not go into players budget. We’re a long way off sustainability and for the moment Covid is only going to make things worse.
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Post by goodnightirene1883 on Sept 30, 2020 8:18:09 GMT
Been thinking again about the question - should he be sacked? then trying to come at the whole situation from a different stand point.
BG is young, v young as a manager. It's his first step up in the manager role after being described as an excellent coach. The Project may not just be about Rovers bringing in young / lower league potential assets but also to create a blue print for converting young successful coaches into managers. I imagine that there are loads of excellent coaches at premier/championship/aboard who, once the blue print for success is carved out (obviously taking a long time with BG) could offer up great value in the future.
I mean it would be great to fully understand 'the project' but imagine for a while that if we manage to convert excellent coaches into managers and young potentialists (not a word) into very talented players (£££s) this could mean that we have a conveyor belt of success and sustainability (of sorts).
I understand how bad it is and that its probably all over within the next 8 weeks, but, what if it wasn't. What if, we manage to turn this around and have each 'role' understanding the positions / tactics / style etc - then its a case of bringing new players or coaches in and being trained up in the position or style of the predecessor
This would make us a very attractive proposition for talented coaches and players alike. Also with a network reaching far and wide brimming with young talent.
Just a thought.
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 30, 2020 8:30:59 GMT
97p in the pound was spent on the club's overall employee wages not just players wages, which were capped at 60% of turnover. GC put a team together which was clearly capable of winning games at this level, there's no logic in throwing away what he'd built to start again with an inexperienced manager trying to play a totally different style of football with basically inexperienced players. Theres some nicely written stuff here, but i have to be honest when people start harping on about the good old days of GC it kind of gets my goat, yes we got results playing crap football that let's be honest, the only joy was the score line not the beautiful way we played and outclassed the other team, secondly, we were punching, i mean we were REALLY punching, some games we got results in wasn't because we played brilliantly, but the other team played terribly, lastly, and most importantly, he threw us under the bus, yes even those that loved and still love him, he threw you under the bus, he showed zero loyalty to us and just uped and left when it was most convenient to him and least convenient to us. I find the people who harp on about GC are usually the same ones the go on about how WE should never have let JCH go, like WE had a choice? he went because he wanted to not because we kicked him out, theres not much we can do about that apart from get over it I've no idea why GC left but the fact that virtually all senior pros have left this summer supports the view he was unhappy with the playing budget, anyway my point was why didn't we continue with what GC had built, perhaps with Kevin Maher(?) rather than start again from scratch with BG.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Sept 30, 2020 10:18:29 GMT
Been thinking again about the question - should he be sacked? then trying to come at the whole situation from a different stand point. BG is young, v young as a manager. It's his first step up in the manager role after being described as an excellent coach. The Project may not just be about Rovers bringing in young / lower league potential assets but also to create a blue print for converting young successful coaches into managers. I imagine that there are loads of excellent coaches at premier/championship/aboard who, once the blue print for success is carved out (obviously taking a long time with BG) could offer up great value in the future. I mean it would be great to fully understand 'the project' but imagine for a while that if we manage to convert excellent coaches into managers and young potentialists (not a word) into very talented players (£££s) this could mean that we have a conveyor belt of success and sustainability (of sorts). I understand how bad it is and that its probably all over within the next 8 weeks, but, what if it wasn't. What if, we manage to turn this around and have each 'role' understanding the positions / tactics / style etc - then its a case of bringing new players or coaches in and being trained up in the position or style of the predecessor This would make us a very attractive proposition for talented coaches and players alike. Also with a network reaching far and wide brimming with young talent. Just a thought. Turning it around would be akin to us winning matches and playing well within them. I would love to have this again. We have had it before, including developing youth players, but some complained about the standard/quality of the football. Again, GNA 1883, it's a thought. A lovely thought, but I think (for me) that's all it will ever remain. I think this might be a classic case of qualifications and badges aren't necessarily more important than experience and knowing how to manage/communicate/read games/inspire and motivate under performing players etc..... perhaps a balance of both....and a raw metaphor that isn't literal translation could be because someone has passed driving test doesn't make them a good driver. Poor, I know but as close a metaphor I can think of.
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Post by goodnightirene1883 on Sept 30, 2020 12:22:02 GMT
Been thinking again about the question - should he be sacked? then trying to come at the whole situation from a different stand point. BG is young, v young as a manager. It's his first step up in the manager role after being described as an excellent coach. The Project may not just be about Rovers bringing in young / lower league potential assets but also to create a blue print for converting young successful coaches into managers. I imagine that there are loads of excellent coaches at premier/championship/aboard who, once the blue print for success is carved out (obviously taking a long time with BG) could offer up great value in the future. I mean it would be great to fully understand 'the project' but imagine for a while that if we manage to convert excellent coaches into managers and young potentialists (not a word) into very talented players (£££s) this could mean that we have a conveyor belt of success and sustainability (of sorts). I understand how bad it is and that its probably all over within the next 8 weeks, but, what if it wasn't. What if, we manage to turn this around and have each 'role' understanding the positions / tactics / style etc - then its a case of bringing new players or coaches in and being trained up in the position or style of the predecessor This would make us a very attractive proposition for talented coaches and players alike. Also with a network reaching far and wide brimming with young talent. Just a thought. Turning it around would be akin to us winning matches and playing well within them. I would love to have this again. We have had it before, including developing youth players, but some complained about the standard/quality of the football. Again, GNA 1883, it's a thought. A lovely thought, but I think (for me) that's all it will ever remain. I think this might be a classic case of qualifications and badges aren't necessarily more important than experience and knowing how to manage/communicate/read games/inspire and motivate under performing players etc..... perhaps a balance of both....and a raw metaphor that isn't literal translation could be because someone has passed driving test doesn't make them a good driver. Poor, I know but as close a metaphor I can think of. I do like to dream don't I lol
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Post by tecallaghan on Oct 1, 2020 12:10:46 GMT
I personally don't feel (and haven't felt) that Garner is up to task. A great coach he might be - it's a different kettle of fish to become that leader/managerial figure like a Klopp or a Guardiola. I don't see Garner as having that and nothing that is happening right now suggests to me that will change.
HOWEVER, he deserves the opportunity and chance to learn from these experiences and it does the club no favours to lurch once again into a position of uncertainty when we have to find a new manager - especially right now with the current public health crisis we face.
I selected 8 games, but my thinking is more towards Christmas. I think start of December is the time we need to make the call at the latest. If we don't see improvements in any form by November, then we have to consider options. If the situation remind dire by December, cut him out regardless.
My main concern is ensuring we have a plan in place whatever the situation is.
All in all, even though I hold reservations about him I still think he deserves to see his job out as long as we can afford to.
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Post by yattongas on Oct 3, 2020 20:33:03 GMT
This is such reactionary bull sh** ! Lol If ( and it’s a big IF) we’d of won yesterday the result would be totally different. Loads on here were lauding his summer signings and talking of a possible play off push. We could get 3 decent results in our next games and you’ll get loads saying they always thought he’d come good in the end. Getting a bit watered off with this stuff now , it’s 3 F...ing games into a new season . You gotta love the IF. If the moon was made of cheese, if Father Christmas was a gashead, if there really were unicorns. Ffs, the bloke is totally inept. He has absolutely no idea, and shouldn't have come back to Bristol (if indeed he did) on Saturday. I can only think the rose tinters who told us what fabulous players we were signing are the ones who want to give him more time. The only reason he is still here was because the person who chose him owns the club. If you are watching Wael, get rid of this joker. And for god sake stop trying to turn us into a feeder club for Chelsea. Even if we beat Northampton, he still has to go. Give the job to Hargreaves or Mansell till the end of the season, and pray. But whatever happens, if there is money in the kitty for more signings, don't let BG use it. BRFC under 21's cannot compete at League 1 level. Simples. AND FOR GOD SAKE PUT OGOGO BACK IN THE TEAM. And as for the poll, does it mean Northampton at home or when we are relegated after playing them away? Asking for a friend. 😃
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Post by rememberhalifax on Oct 4, 2020 8:24:42 GMT
Been thinking again about the question - should he be sacked? then trying to come at the whole situation from a different stand point. BG is young, v young as a manager. It's his first step up in the manager role after being described as an excellent coach. The Project may not just be about Rovers bringing in young / lower league potential assets but also to create a blue print for converting young successful coaches into managers. I imagine that there are loads of excellent coaches at premier/championship/aboard who, once the blue print for success is carved out (obviously taking a long time with BG) could offer up great value in the future. I mean it would be great to fully understand 'the project' but imagine for a while that if we manage to convert excellent coaches into managers and young potentialists (not a word) into very talented players (£££s) this could mean that we have a conveyor belt of success and sustainability (of sorts). I understand how bad it is and that its probably all over within the next 8 weeks, but, what if it wasn't. What if, we manage to turn this around and have each 'role' understanding the positions / tactics / style etc - then its a case of bringing new players or coaches in and being trained up in the position or style of the predecessor This would make us a very attractive proposition for talented coaches and players alike. Also with a network reaching far and wide brimming with young talent. Just a thought. This is similar to the Swansea model from a few years ago when a succession of managers carried on where the prev one left off , cant remember who started it but Rodgers, Martinez, were much involved and it took them to the top ,run by the excellent Jenkins ,then for some reason every thing changed at the club from the top., and they started from a very low base, nearly going out of league.
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Post by yattongas on Oct 10, 2020 16:06:38 GMT
Alright lads ?
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Post by Topper Gas on Oct 10, 2020 16:26:54 GMT
I guess the poll proves that 40% of the forum users know f all about football, it's hard to believe that after 4 league & cup games we'd normally expect to lose anyway that they all wanted BG sacked because we failed to win any of them!
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Post by socrates on Oct 10, 2020 16:29:41 GMT
I said until end of October and then review it which I stand by.
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Post by axegas on Oct 10, 2020 16:36:46 GMT
I think people jumped the gun a little after the Doncaster game, I know that’s easy to say with hindsight but at the time I voted to give Garner time. I know we had lost a couple of games at that point but look at the table Ipswich are comfortably first and Doncaster are up there with a game in hand as well.
Now we’ve played a few games against sides that aren’t going to be quite so good this season, we’ve clearly demonstrated that we can hold our own and get wins under our belts. With so many new players and a new tactic, this team is only going to get better as it gels too I think.
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