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Post by Hugo the Elder on Dec 6, 2020 17:57:26 GMT
Do you really believe the majority thought it was ok to boo players taking the knee? Absolutely, 100%, but of course many will not declare it, for fear of being labelled racist. Then how do you know it's true? |
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Post by Dirt Dogg on Dec 6, 2020 18:39:49 GMT
Do you really believe the majority thought it was ok to boo players taking the knee? Absolutely, 100%, but of course many will not declare it, for fear of being labelled racist. Yeah that tends to happen when you do racist stuff! |
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Post by e4bandrobinstubbs on Dec 6, 2020 18:57:35 GMT
Well done, you've blown your cover as Ageist. I suppose that's perfectly ok in your book. It's certainly as bad as any other prejudice. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 6, 2020 19:05:19 GMT
Well done, you've blown your cover as Ageist. I suppose that's perfectly ok in your book. It's certainly as bad as any other prejudice. What is your suggestion? Would you rather see an alternative gesture or nothing at all? |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Dec 6, 2020 19:13:17 GMT
Well done, you've blown your cover as Ageist. I suppose that's perfectly ok in your book. It's certainly as bad as any other prejudice. What is your suggestion? Would you rather see an alternative gesture or nothing at all? I would like to suggest Hopping. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Dec 6, 2020 19:33:19 GMT
Well done, you've blown your cover as Ageist. I suppose that's perfectly ok in your book. It's certainly as bad as any other prejudice. Actually I wanted to know how old you were. |
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Post by tinner on Dec 6, 2020 20:34:29 GMT
Absolutely, 100%, but of course many will not declare it, for fear of being labelled racist. Then how do you know it's true? I don’t....you asked me what I believe....and that is what I believe!! Just like some on here believe a supporter is racist just by a noise they make!!! |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Dec 6, 2020 20:36:09 GMT
Then how do you know it's true? I don’t....you asked me what I believe....and that is what I believe!! Just like some on here believe a supporter is racist just by a noise they make!!! Fabulous. |
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Post by gasandelectricity on Dec 6, 2020 20:42:18 GMT
This won't be popular but I'm not a fan of the packaging of the BLM movement in the slightest. The reason for this is that it's approach actually comes across as divisive. The whole approach is focussed at singling out a particular ethnicity and whilst I totally appreciate the argument that it's an ethnicity which has been particularly discriminated against and that they've had a particularly raw deal, you don't fight fire with fire and we need to start talking about what unites us and not what divides us. I fear that the BLM movement just drives wedges between people and doesn't build relationships. I also think it's important to focus on 'not being a dick' in general - why stop at racism? Why not sexism? Ageism? Fat shaming? I get there's context behind racism but surely the message of don't discriminate against people is a lot simpler and easier to understand if you remove all the caveats around what basis you can do it on. Further, the context behind the protests, the pulling down of statues, the links to a particular form of politics are extremely unhelpful and have left a sour taste in the mouth of some of those who would otherwise be completely behind the campaign. Indeed, there have been studies that have suggested that BLM has increased racial tensions in the United Kingdom. This cannot be good if the goal of BLM is to reduce those tensions. www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/27/black-lives-matter-has-increased-racial-tension-55-say-in-uk-pollSo whilst I completely agree with what most people behind the cause are trying to achieve I can't help but feel, strongly, that this is the wrong vector for achieving its aims and that an alternative message which all of us can get behind is required. Unaffiliated to a particular political movement. And to add, I've refrained from chipping in before because yes, it does feel if you don't get on board with the recognised movement for this year then you're labelled as a racist and outcast socially. As a society we cannot progress if we shutdown people for not following the group think. It strikes me as rather prejudicial if anything? And it just shuts down dialogue with those who we need to convince and educate. Just because I don't like your messaging, doesn't mean I don't agree with what you're trying to achieve. |
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Post by gashead1981 on Dec 6, 2020 21:46:01 GMT
This won't be popular but I'm not a fan of the packaging of the BLM movement in the slightest. The reason for this is that it's approach actually comes across as divisive. The whole approach is focussed at singling out a particular ethnicity and whilst I totally appreciate the argument that it's an ethnicity which has been particularly discriminated against and that they've had a particularly raw deal, you don't fight fire with fire and we need to start talking about what unites us and not what divides us. I fear that the BLM movement just drives wedges between people and doesn't build relationships. I also think it's important to focus on 'not being a dick' in general - why stop at racism? Why not sexism? Ageism? Fat shaming? I get there's context behind racism but surely the message of don't discriminate against people is a lot simpler and easier to understand if you remove all the caveats around what basis you can do it on. Further, the context behind the protests, the pulling down of statues, the links to a particular form of politics are extremely unhelpful and have left a sour taste in the mouth of some of those who would otherwise be completely behind the campaign. Indeed, there have been studies that have suggested that BLM has increased racial tensions in the United Kingdom. This cannot be good if the goal of BLM is to reduce those tensions. www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/27/black-lives-matter-has-increased-racial-tension-55-say-in-uk-pollSo whilst I completely agree with what most people behind the cause are trying to achieve I can't help but feel, strongly, that this is the wrong vector for achieving its aims and that an alternative message which all of us can get behind is required. Unaffiliated to a particular political movement. And to add, I've refrained from chipping in before because yes, it does feel if you don't get on board with the recognised movement for this year then you're labelled as a racist and outcast socially. As a society we cannot progress if we shutdown people for not following the group think. It strikes me as rather prejudicial if anything? And it just shuts down dialogue with those who we need to convince and educate. Just because I don't like your messaging, doesn't mean I don't agree with what you're trying to achieve. I think that ageism, sexism, homophobia etc has all been addressed in the last 2-3 years in a manner of different ways, from people talking about how things effects their mental health, to corporations like the bbc revealing pay and levelling pay in some cases as well as a much more open acceptance towards homosexuality as being normal whereas previously it was a taboo subject. But correct me if I’m wrong, up until this year there has never been an outward public reaction towards racism where it has identified persons as racist or even just a lack of education on how certain terms make people of colour feel. I agree that the actions of the BLM movement protests has not painted their message in a good light in some circumstances. But when you have articulate black people in prominent positions saying how they have been treated throughout their lives in fairly modern and recent times, you can’t help but listen to that and agree with what they are saying. And that’s the message we should listen to and what should be focused on. I’ve mentioned here that my sister married a British Jamaican chap. His family are my second family also, I love them to bits, and I’ve witnessed racist comments towards him, in what we think to be a modern society where things like that don’t happen. It’s a sad indictment on humanity that we actually have to talk about such things as being real as I’m not aware of any colour or creed of the human race being any superior or inferior to the next. |
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Post by gasandelectricity on Dec 6, 2020 21:58:04 GMT
This won't be popular but I'm not a fan of the packaging of the BLM movement in the slightest. The reason for this is that it's approach actually comes across as divisive. The whole approach is focussed at singling out a particular ethnicity and whilst I totally appreciate the argument that it's an ethnicity which has been particularly discriminated against and that they've had a particularly raw deal, you don't fight fire with fire and we need to start talking about what unites us and not what divides us. I fear that the BLM movement just drives wedges between people and doesn't build relationships. I also think it's important to focus on 'not being a dick' in general - why stop at racism? Why not sexism? Ageism? Fat shaming? I get there's context behind racism but surely the message of don't discriminate against people is a lot simpler and easier to understand if you remove all the caveats around what basis you can do it on. Further, the context behind the protests, the pulling down of statues, the links to a particular form of politics are extremely unhelpful and have left a sour taste in the mouth of some of those who would otherwise be completely behind the campaign. Indeed, there have been studies that have suggested that BLM has increased racial tensions in the United Kingdom. This cannot be good if the goal of BLM is to reduce those tensions. www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/27/black-lives-matter-has-increased-racial-tension-55-say-in-uk-pollSo whilst I completely agree with what most people behind the cause are trying to achieve I can't help but feel, strongly, that this is the wrong vector for achieving its aims and that an alternative message which all of us can get behind is required. Unaffiliated to a particular political movement. And to add, I've refrained from chipping in before because yes, it does feel if you don't get on board with the recognised movement for this year then you're labelled as a racist and outcast socially. As a society we cannot progress if we shutdown people for not following the group think. It strikes me as rather prejudicial if anything? And it just shuts down dialogue with those who we need to convince and educate. Just because I don't like your messaging, doesn't mean I don't agree with what you're trying to achieve. I think that ageism, sexism, homophobia etc has all been addressed in the last 2-3 years in a manner of different ways, from people talking about how things effects their mental health, to corporations like the bbc revealing pay and levelling pay in some cases as well as a much more open acceptance towards homosexuality as being normal whereas previously it was a taboo subject. But correct me if I’m wrong, up until this year there has never been an outward public reaction towards racism where it has identified persons as racist or even just a lack of education on how certain terms make people of colour feel. I agree that the actions of the BLM movement protests has not painted their message in a good light in some circumstances. But when you have articulate black people in prominent positions saying how they have been treated throughout their lives in fairly modern and recent times, you can’t help but listen to that and agree with what they are saying. And that’s the message we should listen to and what should be focused on. I’ve mentioned here that my sister married a British Jamaican chap. His family are my second family also, I love them to bits, and I’ve witnessed racist comments towards him, in what we think to be a modern society where things like that don’t happen. It’s a sad indictment on humanity that we actually have to talk about such things as being real as I’m not aware of any colour or creed of the human race being any superior or inferior to the next. I'm certainly not disputing it's a problem. My niece is mixed race and goes to a rather rural school. I've heard rather horrible stories of what's been said to her and it's certainly not on. The important thing is that the way the message is carried is as inclusive as possible, and is not tainted by associations. For instance, if people are going to come straight back at it and say 'All lives matters'. If they're not getting the point that black people have been discriminated towards significantly in Western culture, and that they need a bit of focus on them, then the message is lost even if the argument back towards that is a sound one. |
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Post by Gastafari on Dec 6, 2020 23:07:36 GMT
Freedom of speech or expression as long as it fits one agenda, complete outrage if you have a different view and dare have a difference of opinion. The FA just make it up as they go along. Pep Guardiola got fined for wearing a little Yellow Ribbon in support for his fellow Catalonians unlawfully jailed. The reason outlined by the FA was that "Any show of support or "wearing a political message", is a breach of kit and advertising regulations. So what is players taking the knee, doing Black power salutes and having the BLM logo on the shirts exactly? Complete double standards. I wouldn't of boo'd personally but I have no problem with them doing it, if they feel its a farce and no longer want to see it before every game. Of course Black Lives Matter but the organisation is a sham. However much the Premier League and Football League pretend that its not anything to do with BLM, it's utter Garbage. The marketing team deserve huge kudos, as it's a powerful slogan, so credit where it's due there. But its just a massive sham of an organisation
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Post by biggles on Dec 6, 2020 23:13:12 GMT
whatever happened to free speech in this country
the pulling down of statues does not convince me that the rabble involved with this sort of anti social behaviour
did themselves any credit
then to get football players to take the knee because of something that happened in the usa is stupid
just think how we are treated now
no blackboards only whiteboards in school is that not racist
you cant have a morning assembly as i did in the 60's
because it offends minority groups
i believe we should all get on together but certain things get your back up
so i as one have sympathy with the milwall fans without being racist
all we hear now is about black culture,good luck to them is what i say
but i dont want it rammed down my throat morning noon and night
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 6, 2020 23:24:12 GMT
whatever happened to free speech in this country the pulling down of statues does not convince me that the rabble involved with this sort of anti social behaviour did themselves any credit then to get football players to take the knee because of something that happened in the usa is stupid just think how we are treated now no blackboards only whiteboards in school is that not racist you cant have a morning assembly as i did in the 60's because it offends minority groups i believe we should all get on together but certain things get your back up so i as one have sympathy with the milwall fans without being racist all we hear now is about black culture,good luck to them is what i say but i dont want it rammed down my throat morning noon and night Whiteboards is an improvement in technology and my daughter still has assembly. |
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Post by biggles on Dec 6, 2020 23:27:58 GMT
does she know what a blackboard is
and would it cause any harm
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 6, 2020 23:53:22 GMT
does she know what a blackboard is and would it cause any harm Yes she does, we have one at home. As for the second part, I've covered that before, it was changed as part of an improvement in tech and allows, for example, interaction with computers and projectors. They were coming in when I was at school in the 80s/90s so are not new nor to do with some form of anti racism programme. |
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Post by axegas on Dec 7, 2020 0:10:33 GMT
I think that ageism, sexism, homophobia etc has all been addressed in the last 2-3 years in a manner of different ways, from people talking about how things effects their mental health, to corporations like the bbc revealing pay and levelling pay in some cases as well as a much more open acceptance towards homosexuality as being normal whereas previously it was a taboo subject. But correct me if I’m wrong, up until this year there has never been an outward public reaction towards racism where it has identified persons as racist or even just a lack of education on how certain terms make people of colour feel. I agree that the actions of the BLM movement protests has not painted their message in a good light in some circumstances. But when you have articulate black people in prominent positions saying how they have been treated throughout their lives in fairly modern and recent times, you can’t help but listen to that and agree with what they are saying. And that’s the message we should listen to and what should be focused on. I’ve mentioned here that my sister married a British Jamaican chap. His family are my second family also, I love them to bits, and I’ve witnessed racist comments towards him, in what we think to be a modern society where things like that don’t happen. It’s a sad indictment on humanity that we actually have to talk about such things as being real as I’m not aware of any colour or creed of the human race being any superior or inferior to the next. I'm certainly not disputing it's a problem. My niece is mixed race and goes to a rather rural school. I've heard rather horrible stories of what's been said to her and it's certainly not on. The important thing is that the way the message is carried is as inclusive as possible, and is not tainted by associations. For instance, if people are going to come straight back at it and say 'All lives matters'. If they're not getting the point that black people have been discriminated towards significantly in Western culture, and that they need a bit of focus on them, then the message is lost even if the argument back towards that is a sound one. The only people that are tainting it with associations and that are turning it into a divisive issue are the sort of people in the Millwall crowd. If everyone is in agreement that “all lives matter” then a movement such as BLM should unite us in opposition to discrimination against black people. The kneeling is just to say black people have just as much rights as every one else its as simple as that. There is no ulterior motive to it, no politics, no message that one race needs to be talked about more than another. I don’t see what isn’t inclusive about wanting black lives to matter really. Yet a certain bunch of people want to do everything in their power to shift the argument into a political one, they want to focus on one small group that used BLM’s name for clout and had 0 affiliation with the movement or its objectives as a whole. The lazy “all lives matter” reply is just conveying their offence at black people’s discrimination being openly and publicly talked about, which they wrongly perceive to be some kind of attack on themselves. I’ll be deeply ashamed as a Rovers supporter if I hear/see any booing or dissent next time we’re back on the terraces at the mem. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Dec 7, 2020 0:15:15 GMT
does she know what a blackboard is and would it cause any harm To be fair they don't use blackboards because its not the 1980s anymore. At my kids school they did switch to whiteboards but were concerned about it bringing validation to white supremacists so changed the name to what they thought was a more inclusive one - Rainbow boards. That quickly got shot down by the fundamentalists as being overly political and sympathising to the gays. The Head then had to put out comms to the parents saying they had changed the name to an Education & Learning board but despite pure intentions got in to trouble with the actual Education Board at the local authority. Luckily they got involved and after a quick review of the problem they decided to do away with the whiteboard and bring back the old Chalk Board which they said is what it was called anyway before any livid red righties even began pretending that calling it a blackboard has ever been an issue to anyone, anywhere, ever. What a joke. Its Health and Safety gone mad. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 1:14:17 GMT
Freedom of speech or expression as long as it fits one agenda, complete outrage if you have a different view and dare have a difference of opinion. The FA just make it up as they go along. Pep Guardiola got fined for wearing a little Yellow Ribbon in support for his fellow Catalonians unlawfully jailed. The reason outlined by the FA was that "Any show of support or "wearing a political message", is a breach of kit and advertising regulations. So what is players taking the knee, doing Black power salutes and having the BLM logo on the shirts exactly? Complete double standards. I wouldn't of boo'd personally but I have no problem with them doing it, if they feel its a farce and no longer want to see it before every game. Of course Black Lives Matter but the organisation is a sham. However much the Premier League and Football League pretend that its not anything to do with BLM, it's utter Garbage. The marketing team deserve huge kudos, as it's a powerful slogan, so credit where it's due there. But its just a massive sham of an organisation Excellent point there about Guardiola, protesting one form of oppression is fine because it’s cool whereas another is frowned upon. Total double standards but I wouldn’t expect anything less from football’s governing bodies who are just like Ben and Jerry’s and co for smelling which way the wind is blowing and moralising to the population when they have their own demons they should be confronting- in football’s case an old boy’s network of white old men that don’t seem to be going anywhere soon. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 1:34:37 GMT
I'm certainly not disputing it's a problem. My niece is mixed race and goes to a rather rural school. I've heard rather horrible stories of what's been said to her and it's certainly not on. The important thing is that the way the message is carried is as inclusive as possible, and is not tainted by associations. For instance, if people are going to come straight back at it and say 'All lives matters'. If they're not getting the point that black people have been discriminated towards significantly in Western culture, and that they need a bit of focus on them, then the message is lost even if the argument back towards that is a sound one. The only people that are tainting it with associations and that are turning it into a divisive issue are the sort of people in the Millwall crowd. If everyone is in agreement that “all lives matter” then a movement such as BLM should unite us in opposition to discrimination against black people. The kneeling is just to say black people have just as much rights as every one else its as simple as that. There is no ulterior motive to it, no politics, no message that one race needs to be talked about more than another. I don’t see what isn’t inclusive about wanting black lives to matter really. Yet a certain bunch of people want to do everything in their power to shift the argument into a political one, they want to focus on one small group that used BLM’s name for clout and had 0 affiliation with the movement or its objectives as a whole. The lazy “all lives matter” reply is just conveying their offence at black people’s discrimination being openly and publicly talked about, which they wrongly perceive to be some kind of attack on themselves. I’ll be deeply ashamed as a Rovers supporter if I hear/see any booing or dissent next time we’re back on the terraces at the mem. That’s not quite true- it was BLM U.K. who stated in their manifesto on their website and from their verified Twitter account that their aim was to dismantle the structures of capitalism - BLM U.K. doesn’t sound like some fringe organisation (as I understand it BLM worldwide is made up of regional sub-organisations) so it’s fairly clear how people could associate BLM with a threat to their way of life (especially the posters on this forum who make no secret of their fear of Marxism and reds under the bed) and reject any form of protest that is done in the name of Black Lives Matter. As such it’s your right to feel ashamed but I assume you would feel ashamed because you would assume them to be racist? People booing because they wanted to express their opposition to a stated intention to dismantle capitalism is people standing up for their convictions and whilst I don’t necessarily veer towards the area of the political spectrum that fears Marxism I can still support their right to that dissent if done for that reason. And that’s the key point- we don’t know why people are booing. Perhaps the solution is for the FA to relaunch Kick it out with a new slogan and any pre-match rituals to raise awareness is done under that name because it then becomes less political by removing the problematic association with BLM and would then make it quite clear that any booing would be strictly an expression of opposition to raising awareness of racism. |
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