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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 17:54:40 GMT
Do Millwall fans boo the rainbow laces? I wonder. The are many Marxist LGBT organisations.
If we were to remove politics from football that would also involve removing poppies and rememberance day as it is militarism.
A minutes applause for dearly departed loved ones. Not everyone claps along, are they being disrespectful?
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Post by e4bandrobinstubbs on Dec 7, 2020 18:06:15 GMT
Could it be that it has something to do with the 80% and the 20% of the population? Anyway, sit tight, because the current TV adverts are really promoting bame by using a huge number of bame actors in the adverts. In fact one TV ad I saw yesterday had no white actors at all (may have been a Vodaphone ad)! No doubt all this is going to make a huge change in society and businesses are going to forge ahead making £££ millions, and the Brexit & Coronavirus fallout will be a piece of Wee wee. It had better.
Yes, but you seem to have missed the point - we don't see 20% represented in positions of power, do we? In the UKs most powerful list, 96% are white - as a quick example. Did you feel misrepresented by those adverts? Yes, and a whole lot more. A really pathetic attempt at change. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 18:06:37 GMT
I think it's a similar issue for sure. The question I think needs answering is (without also looking at the statistics), why are black people over represented in the lowest earners? Opportunity undoubtedly, but we have to reference the possibility of cultural issues too - there is evidence that Indian and Chinese manage to climb into reasonable income brackets. Also black kids are outnperforming white counterparts in school at the moment so there might be a sea change in the next decade in terms of who makes up the poorest in society. But this is probably getting away from football and back into some of the debates from the George Floyd thread. Probably touched on this before but Asian & Indian immigrants were predominantly wealthy & economic. Of course they still face prejudices, but have a strong community to provide for them. A community that often gets labelled as unsociable, as they tend to remain in their cultural boundaries. The history of black African immigration is very different, in America especially. A rise from mass slavery and never being accepted, treated in the same way as indigenous natives Americans. In the UK black immigrants weren't predominantly wealthy, they came here to build a life but seems were just discarded with the lower class Brits. They never really had a strong community back up and had to build one in the face of adversity with the state being against them because they were foreigners. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Dec 7, 2020 18:13:25 GMT
You said get used to it. I just wondered for how long. |
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Post by Gastafari on Dec 7, 2020 18:14:37 GMT
Class and race are tightly entwined for me, I feel fairly confident coming out with a bit of a guess that black people would be shown to be over-represented amongst the lowest earners in the country. White and black in that respect have the issue of low wages and lack of social mobility as a common problem. The whites can, most likely, probably get the lowest paid jobs a bit easier than black people. It’s like winning the old tallest dwarf competition again though let’s be fair. I think it's a similar issue for sure. The question I think needs answering is (without also looking at the statistics), why are black people over represented in the lowest earners? It's a complexed issue, like I said its best to delve deeper and look at the facts and data. As I've already said why are people of Chinese here and of Japanese and Korean origin over in the states over represented in the higher earners? They are top of pretty much every sector. Then Southern Asians, i.e people of Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi origins are also over represented too, and out perform not just Blacks but Whites too. A lot of it comes down to culture, as somebody who has a Black family and has also lived for brief periods in Cities in America with majority Black populations, I've seen it first hand. I've mentioned on other threads that the Welfare state in America has a lot to answer for, before the Welfare state, when Black people really were oppressed, 80% of Black families lived in a strong 2 parent family structure, their communities were safe, there was little crime, little violence and murder. Fast forward to now where 66% of Black kids live in single mum households on Welfare, their communities are rife with Drug crime and the murder rates are some of the highest in the World. Is it really to do with racism and oppression? As Black families had a better structure and didnt rely on Welfare, and that was when they really were oppressed, living under Jim Crow laws where they couldn't eat or even go for a p*ss next to Whites. Sometimes we just have to be honest, and not just blame everybody else. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 18:57:09 GMT
When players first started taking the knee, I found it to be both emotive and thought provoking. However, as it continued over many months the effect was diluted, and now, to me, it's just part of the matchday ritual, like players shaking hands, the toss of the coin etc - it doesn't particularly register. I'd prefer to see clubs doing more work with the disadvantaged sections of the community (yes, I know that we do loads already), but if players care that much they can give up a bit more of their free time. Get something different on the pitch, penalty shoot-outs featuring groups that the club are working with, with somebody on the mic talking about how the club has been involved. I'd pay much more attention to that, and am much more interested in being informed about the steps the club are taking to address inequality, than seeing a 20 second gesture repeated ad infinitum. Apologies if that makes me a racist. Unfortunately efforts to do those things you have suggested to address racism didn't seem to work. Hence the direct action being taken. Maybe they could do a raffle to end racism? That would be better than a global signal by all players? Apologies, I couldn't help myself. I'm sure that little Tommy thinks "I'm not gonna be racist anymore because I saw Harry Kane go down on one knee". Whereas if little Tommy is able to be educated about racism and equality, in a fun and relevant way, by professional footballers visiting his school, youth club or whatever, I think he would be more likely to engage. If he gets to do something at the ground on match day, that's a bonus for him, and informative for the crowd with regard to the players' contribution to inequality in the community. With regard to saying that the club have done these things before, I can remember a couple of "Kick it Out" designated matches, when Carl Saunders attended and spoke at half-time, and there were a few banner around. Carl himself has recently said that he's contacted the club on several occasions offering to get involved, and has never received a response. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 19:04:10 GMT
When players first started taking the knee, I found it to be both emotive and thought provoking. However, as it continued over many months the effect was diluted, and now, to me, it's just part of the matchday ritual, like players shaking hands, the toss of the coin etc - it doesn't particularly register. I'd prefer to see clubs doing more work with the disadvantaged sections of the community (yes, I know that we do loads already), but if players care that much they can give up a bit more of their free time. Get something different on the pitch, penalty shoot-outs featuring groups that the club are working with, with somebody on the mic talking about how the club has been involved. I'd pay much more attention to that, and am much more interested in being informed about the steps the club are taking to address inequality, than seeing a 20 second gesture repeated ad infinitum. Apologies if that makes me a racist. I think you make some good points, Tilly. Probably it has worn down a bit now and I don't think anyone would disagree that clubs and players could/should be doing more. Especially the players. 365 and I were discussing a while ago the example of Rashford and what a player can do if they put their mind to it. Imagine if just 1% of PL players did what Rashford has done over the last few months. But unfortunately, this doesn't happen enough. We all know that the Millwall fans weren't booing because they're bored of people taking the knee - would you boo it? People here glorify the kick it out campaign as if it had worked wonders, did it? Pretty sure most of us just remember the t-shirts and it pretty much became like taking the knee is now, ignored. The part I find interesting is when people pick specific parts of BLM, and choose that to rubbish the entire campaign. I'm pretty sure every person on this thread has at least 1 thing they don't like about the party they voted for at the last election. But we all still voted for them, because we saw the bigger picture of what we believed to be right. So when I see people using anti-capitalism as a bat to bash the fact that we still have racism in football and they actively speak out against supporting players making a token gesture, it makes you wonder if it's really the gesture, or something else. No, I certainly wouldn't boo it, as I feel that it served a good purpose in the beginning. I just think it's time to move on from that gesture, and get the players involved in some actions where the results of their efforts can actually be measured. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 19:36:13 GMT
Unfortunately efforts to do those things you have suggested to address racism didn't seem to work. Hence the direct action being taken. Maybe they could do a raffle to end racism? That would be better than a global signal by all players? Apologies, I couldn't help myself. I'm sure that little Tommy thinks "I'm not gonna be racist anymore because I saw Harry Kane go down on one knee". Whereas if little Tommy is able to be educated about racism and equality, in a fun and relevant way, by professional footballers visiting his school, youth club or whatever, I think he would be more likely to engage. If he gets to do something at the ground on match day, that's a bonus for him, and informative for the crowd with regard to the players' contribution to inequality in the community. With regard to saying that the club have done these things before, I can remember a couple of "Kick it Out" designated matches, when Carl Saunders attended and spoke at half-time, and there were a few banner around. Carl himself has recently said that he's contacted the club on several occasions offering to get involved, and has never received a response. Yes that could be a bare minimum any football club could do. There is a bigger issue of racism in the world though, institutional racism as seen in the US, so bad that it's got football players in lower UK leagues protesting Having a few black footballers talk at a game isn't going to cut it at that level I'm afraid, no matter how earnest. BLM has highlighted an issue, many people will bury their heads in the sand which is their right, some people will champion it. Some hard nuts at Millwall will hate it. Maybe it'll fizzle out in a few months, maybe it won't. |
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Post by Gastafari on Dec 7, 2020 20:42:20 GMT
"There is a bigger issue of racism in the world though, institutional racism as seen in the US, so bad that it's got football players in lower UK leagues protesting"
I've brought this up before, where is the evidence of institutional racism?
Sure regrettably there will be racist people within the Police force,like there is in all walks of life unfortunately but when a lot of the poorest US Cities, with the majority Black populations literally all have people in senior positions like Chiefs Of Police, Senators, Mayors, Councillors that are Black. I fail to see how they can be Institutionaly racist to their own race.
Lets be real.
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Post by Dirt Dogg on Dec 7, 2020 21:01:39 GMT
"There is a bigger issue of racism in the world though, institutional racism as seen in the US, so bad that it's got football players in lower UK leagues protesting" I've brought this up before, where is the evidence of institutional racism? Sure regrettably there will be racist people within the Police force,like there is in all walks of life unfortunately but when a lot of the poorest US Cities, with the majority Black populations literally all have people in senior positions like Chiefs Of Police, Senators, Mayors, Councillors that are Black. I fail to see how they can be Institutionaly racist to their own race. Lets be real. Yes but let’s also remember segregation and Jim Crow law is still of living memory in the US, improvements have been made but systematic racism is still embedded in US society. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 22:59:02 GMT
Millwall players will not be kneeling tomorrow night, instead they will be bringing an anti-racism banner onto the pitch.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 23:05:26 GMT
Millwall players will not be kneeling tomorrow night, instead they will be bringing an anti-racism banner onto the pitch. They’ll probably get pelters but that feels appropriate to me, it seems that they are being circumspect as to avoiding BLM by going for an anti-racism banner. I expect there will still be boos as QPR seem determined to egg them on by reverting from their previous decision not to bend the knee to now do so just because they are playing Millwall. The pantomime continues.... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 23:08:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 0:21:25 GMT
If there is no kneeling I don’t think they will react. They’ve had Kick it Out and other similar themes there without an adverse re-action. Let’s hope everything can move forward from here. |
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Post by pirate on Dec 8, 2020 5:15:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 9:21:51 GMT
If there is no kneeling I don’t think they will react. They’ve had Kick it Out and other similar themes there without an adverse re-action. Let’s hope everything can move forward from here. As long as it's something that doesn't disturb their poor little brains, it's ok. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 9:22:53 GMT
Which side of Cable Street would you have been on? |
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Post by Gassy on Dec 8, 2020 10:13:25 GMT
I think it's a similar issue for sure. The question I think needs answering is (without also looking at the statistics), why are black people over represented in the lowest earners? It's a complexed issue, like I said its best to delve deeper and look at the facts and data. As I've already said why are people of Chinese here and of Japanese and Korean origin over in the states over represented in the higher earners? They are top of pretty much every sector. Then Southern Asians, i.e people of Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi origins are also over represented too, and out perform not just Blacks but Whites too. A lot of it comes down to culture, as somebody who has a Black family and has also lived for brief periods in Cities in America with majority Black populations, I've seen it first hand. I've mentioned on other threads that the Welfare state in America has a lot to answer for, before the Welfare state, when Black people really were oppressed, 80% of Black families lived in a strong 2 parent family structure, their communities were safe, there was little crime, little violence and murder. Fast forward to now where 66% of Black kids live in single mum households on Welfare, their communities are rife with Drug crime and the murder rates are some of the highest in the World. Is it really to do with racism and oppression? As Black families had a better structure and didnt rely on Welfare, and that was when they really were oppressed, living under Jim Crow laws where they couldn't eat or even go for a p*ss next to Whites. Sometimes we just have to be honest, and not just blame everybody else. Over represented in what, sorry? High earners? I think people view black to asian very differently tbh. I agree some parts will be cultural, but I'd wager a bet that 95% of people would feel more intimidated by a group of black teenagers than a group of Asian teenagers. I think it also comes down to how people view them. What are the chances of a black teenager being stopped and searched vs an asian teenager? |
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Post by Gassy on Dec 8, 2020 10:17:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 10:32:27 GMT
It's a complexed issue, like I said its best to delve deeper and look at the facts and data. As I've already said why are people of Chinese here and of Japanese and Korean origin over in the states over represented in the higher earners? They are top of pretty much every sector. Then Southern Asians, i.e people of Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi origins are also over represented too, and out perform not just Blacks but Whites too. A lot of it comes down to culture, as somebody who has a Black family and has also lived for brief periods in Cities in America with majority Black populations, I've seen it first hand. I've mentioned on other threads that the Welfare state in America has a lot to answer for, before the Welfare state, when Black people really were oppressed, 80% of Black families lived in a strong 2 parent family structure, their communities were safe, there was little crime, little violence and murder. Fast forward to now where 66% of Black kids live in single mum households on Welfare, their communities are rife with Drug crime and the murder rates are some of the highest in the World. Is it really to do with racism and oppression? As Black families had a better structure and didnt rely on Welfare, and that was when they really were oppressed, living under Jim Crow laws where they couldn't eat or even go for a p*ss next to Whites. Sometimes we just have to be honest, and not just blame everybody else. Over represented in what, sorry? High earners? I think people view black to asian very differently tbh. I agree some parts will be cultural, but I'd wager a bet that 95% of people would feel more intimidated by a group of black teenagers than a group of Asian teenagers. I think it also comes down to how people view them. What are the chances of a black teenager being stopped and searched vs an asian teenager? Gastafari says it because he believes it. We have been on this roundabout before. So let's take Chinese immigrants to the UK. How many, and how many are in the upper income groups, then express that as a percentage. With links and references... Gastafari? |
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