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Post by Topper Gas on Jan 31, 2021 15:49:13 GMT
Utterly delusional. Or you're Ben Garner. Or both. I don’t think Garner was as bad as has been made out.... not this season..... last (before it was suspended) he had dire form but I’ve always believed there were mitigating circumstances...... I appreciate others have a different opinion though... I also believe that we were starting to see shoots of improvement.... would we have improved enough to be safe and comfortable, we’ll never know..... Tisdale is a different manager and has proven himself over year and years and 1000 plus games managing as well as decent cup runs, promotions, high table finishes and play offs etc... he’s just having a sticky patch with us at the moment as he’s trying to get a new philosophy and playing style into a team that he inherited and we’re not his signings.... he will come good though... I firmly believe that he’s the right man for the job and will be a success with us and we’ll be successful with him "shoots of improvement" are different than 4-0 home thrashing by a team who parted with their manager shortly afterwards! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 16:24:44 GMT
I don’t think Garner was as bad as has been made out.... not this season..... last (before it was suspended) he had dire form but I’ve always believed there were mitigating circumstances...... I appreciate others have a different opinion though... I also believe that we were starting to see shoots of improvement.... would we have improved enough to be safe and comfortable, we’ll never know..... Tisdale is a different manager and has proven himself over year and years and 1000 plus games managing as well as decent cup runs, promotions, high table finishes and play offs etc... he’s just having a sticky patch with us at the moment as he’s trying to get a new philosophy and playing style into a team that he inherited and we’re not his signings.... he will come good though... I firmly believe that he’s the right man for the job and will be a success with us and we’ll be successful with him "shoots of improvement" are different than 4-0 home thrashing by a team who parted with their manager shortly afterwards! That is true Topper but one match doesn’t make a season as we all well know...... and generally performances, style of play and results we’re getting slowly better.... Still he’s gone and Tisdale is here and I do think Tisdale will be a successful manager for us.... we have a young and fairly in experienced squad and therefore performances are always going to be inconsistent until things settle and whilst there have been a lot of games we’ve had a change in philosophy, change in shape, change in regular partnerships and injuries at key times for elongated periods that will have all impacted the settling and consistency.... I do think though that things will turn better for us over the next month.... im an eternal optimist I know! |
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Post by hempstedgas on Jan 31, 2021 17:19:43 GMT
Saturday's game wasn't about the players it was all about playing players out of position and poor tactics. I've watched all but 2 games this season and we keep repeating the same mistakes.
PT would do well to learn from GC who recognised that our defensive weaknesses were on the flanks and quick breaks thro' the middle coupled with a lack of creativity and goal scoring resolved by JCH. In midfield Upson can't tackle, head or run but is a good passer of the ball provided he isn't under pressure. GC put Ogogo by his side and moved OC slightly forward to provide protection. Although it reduced OC's attacking he knew OC would run from box to box closing down, tackling and stopping quick attacks. GC stopped his full backs, in the main, from going more than 20 yds past halfway in open play ensuring they were not caught out.
PT should play our best 2 central defenders, Kilgour and Baldwin. Ehmer is a good footballer but can't head, he's like Stefan Payne in that he doesn't jump which results in pushing the attacker in the back. Grant played central defensive midfield for Plymouth, he should do the same for us, again not going 20 yds past halfway. Currently he's out on the right wing, in the goalmouth but rarely where he should be. Little is our best right back, injuries permitting, as he showed against Wimbledon. Leahy can't defend, every game he makes mistakes, on Saturday why did he let the attacker move inside onto his left foot? Basic defending. According to his interview George Williams can play left back and is perhaps our best option there, if not then I would look at Tutonda again with George at RB. Neither should be trying to get to the opposition goal line. In midfield we don't have an OC (unfortunately) the best we have is McCormack who should play the box to box role. Ogogo (I'm not a fan) is our best option to cut out attacks. Oz or Westbrooke should be the creative midfielder with instructions to play ahead of Grant.
Team: Day/Little, Kilgour, Baldwin, Williams/ Grant/ McCormack, Oz or Westbrook, Ogogo/ Hanlon, Nicholson.
Tactics: Full backs/ Defensive midfielder: main role in defence not going too far past half way in open play. Grant looking to receive passes from defence. Restrict wide play to minimise counter attacks. Our corners only one person at corner. We waste a player with Oz and Westbrooke in the corner, miss out on potential goal scoring opportunities and risk breakaway attacks. Grant plus one full back should always be back on the half way line. 2 midfielders should be stationed on the edge of the box to pick up clearances to shoot or recycle plus stop breakaways. When the opposition has a corner there should always be either Oz or Westbrooke on the halfway line ensuring that we have an out route and they have to keep at least 2 players back.
I appreciate that this will be too defensive for many but at the moment let's take a leaf out of GC book, keep some clean sheets, score a few goals and climb the table.
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Post by Topper Gas on Jan 31, 2021 17:20:58 GMT
Why try and rewrite history, in our previous two home games we'd lost to Hull and Peterborough and whilst we beat Walsall in the FA Cup they took us apart in the second half, hardly signs results were improving, during BG's reign we won just 3 home games, one of those being TC's 600th game, the other two when our opponents were reduced to 10 men. That's probably got to be one of the worse home records ever in football league history.
Fans saying BG shouldn't have been sacked have very short memories. I still find it unbelievable he wasn't sacked in the summer, as surely it was obvious last season he was way out of his depth.
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Post by Colyton Gas on Jan 31, 2021 17:45:02 GMT
Fans saying BG shouldn't have been sacked have very short memories. I still find it unbelievable he wasn't sacked in the summer, as surely it was obvious last season he was way out of his depth.
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Agree 100% but we gave him a clean sheet this season and he was still dreadful.Would love to know why GC really left but in any event BG was totally wrong and will never be a number one.
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Post by gashead1981 on Jan 31, 2021 17:49:01 GMT
Fans saying BG shouldn't have been sacked have very short memories. I still find it unbelievable he wasn't sacked in the summer, as surely it was obvious last season he was way out of his depth. Agree 100% but we gave him a clean sheet this season and he was still dreadful.Would love to know why GC really left but in any event BG was totally wrong and will never be a number one. I don’t think anyone is saying he shouldn’t have been sacked, what people are saying is we are no better off under Tisdale, and would probably been better off under Garner That’s 2 totally different opinions and the stats back that up. Garner faced 6 of the top 10 teams in his first games this season, Tisdale has face 6 of the bottom 10. Which makes it even worse. Sacking Garner was absolutely the right decision. Replacing him with Tisdale was probably the worst appointment to be done when there were at least 5 better managers available for interview. |
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Post by darkbluegas on Jan 31, 2021 17:54:22 GMT
Utterly delusional. Or you're Ben Garner. Or both. I don’t think Garner was as bad as has been made out.... not this season..... last (before it was suspended) he had dire form but I’ve always believed there were mitigating circumstances...... I appreciate others have a different opinion though... I also believe that we were starting to see shoots of improvement.... would we have improved enough to be safe and comfortable, we’ll never know..... Tisdale is a different manager and has proven himself over year and years and 1000 plus games managing as well as decent cup runs, promotions, high table finishes and play offs etc... he’s just having a sticky patch with us at the moment as he’s trying to get a new philosophy and playing style into a team that he inherited and we’re not his signings.... he will come good though... I firmly believe that he’s the right man for the job and will be a success with us and we’ll be successful with him Tisdale is a nice man but remind me about his proven record. If we were a struggling Fourth Division outfit he’d be a great appointment |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 17:59:06 GMT
Why try and rewrite history, in our previous two home games we'd lost to Hull and Peterborough and whilst we beat Walsall in the FA Cup they took us apart in the second half, hardly signs results were improving, during BG's reign we won just 3 home games, one of those being TC's 600th game, the other two when our opponents were reduced to 10 men. That's probably got to be one of the worse home records ever in football league history. Fans saying BG shouldn't have been sacked have very short memories. I still find it unbelievable he wasn't sacked in the summer, as surely it was obvious last season he was way out of his depth. I think you’re slightly being disingenuous to BG.... I believe last season there were mitigating circumstances, others don’t and that’s fine - it’s all about opinions..... This season he had mixed fortunes but the team we’re getting generally better.... remember we played most of the top teams... Do I think he should have been sacked? Personally I’d have given him slightly longer but at the same time I can understand why he was sacked.... what’s happened has happened and can’t be changed and I do think ultimately it is a good decision, but Tisdale needs time now and our backing and support as he is changing a number of things - philosophy, shape, formation and the regular players and it will take time to bed in and settle - especially when we’ve had key players missing with injury.... they are and will be recently back so again will take a week or 2 to get back fully.... In summary, depending on your opinion about last season, Garner wasn’t as bad as he’s been made out to be and Tisdale will turn out to be the right and a good appointment but he needs time and support..... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 18:04:31 GMT
I don’t think Garner was as bad as has been made out.... not this season..... last (before it was suspended) he had dire form but I’ve always believed there were mitigating circumstances...... I appreciate others have a different opinion though... I also believe that we were starting to see shoots of improvement.... would we have improved enough to be safe and comfortable, we’ll never know..... Tisdale is a different manager and has proven himself over year and years and 1000 plus games managing as well as decent cup runs, promotions, high table finishes and play offs etc... he’s just having a sticky patch with us at the moment as he’s trying to get a new philosophy and playing style into a team that he inherited and we’re not his signings.... he will come good though... I firmly believe that he’s the right man for the job and will be a success with us and we’ll be successful with him Tisdale is a nice man but remind me about his proven record. If we were a struggling Fourth Division outfit he’d be a great appointment His performance at Team Bath, his performance at Exeter and his performance at MK Dons all had playoff and or promotions with decent cup runs? Stuff we can only dream of lately? Yes they weren’t at Championship or League 1 level but managing is a capability and it isn’t different in the different leagues - just the quality you face changes.... he was also really really unlucky at MK after their promotion with a massive injury list affecting them.... |
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Post by madgas on Jan 31, 2021 18:17:10 GMT
Im stuck on Tis.
Cards out. Personality wise- not my guy.
However- thought it was the sensible and correct choice. I can see him doing well, still.
Track record? Listen, good from where im sitting. Seems to always leave a club in a better position than before.
However- a couple of bits that worry me. I thought hed cracked it early. Went 4 3 3 and we looked much better. Going back to this 5 4 1 trouble... is trouble.
Secondly, an MK dons fan on came on here and warned us of his obsession of playing CBs in weird places...
Hes got my backing- but we really need to go 4 3 3. ASAP.
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Post by darkbluegas on Jan 31, 2021 18:27:29 GMT
Tisdale is a nice man but remind me about his proven record. If we were a struggling Fourth Division outfit he’d be a great appointment His performance at Team Bath, his performance at Exeter and his performance at MK Dons all had playoff and or promotions with decent cup runs? Stuff we can only dream of lately? Yes they weren’t at Championship or League 1 level but managing is a capability and it isn’t different in the different leagues - just the quality you face changes.... he was also really really unlucky at MK after their promotion with a massive injury list affecting them.... So managing is the same at whatever level it’s just the opposition that changes. Strange that Liverpool and Man City waste all that money on Klopp and Pep when Tis might as well have a go in the Premiership. Like I said Tisdale seems like a nice bloke without any proven ability in the top half of the Third Division. Just seems strange that Wael has invested hugely in stabilising the club and setting up the training ground then we appoint a bang average manager. All very odd |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 18:29:28 GMT
Saturday's game wasn't about the players it was all about playing players out of position and poor tactics. I've watched all but 2 games this season and we keep repeating the same mistakes. PT would do well to learn from GC who recognised that our defensive weaknesses were on the flanks and quick breaks thro' the middle coupled with a lack of creativity and goal scoring resolved by JCH. In midfield Upson can't tackle, head or run but is a good passer of the ball provided he isn't under pressure. GC put Ogogo by his side and moved OC slightly forward to provide protection. Although it reduced OC's attacking he knew OC would run from box to box closing down, tackling and stopping quick attacks. GC stopped his full backs, in the main, from going more than 20 yds past halfway in open play ensuring they were not caught out. PT should play our best 2 central defenders, Kilgour and Baldwin. Ehmer is a good footballer but can't head, he's like Stefan Payne in that he doesn't jump which results in pushing the attacker in the back. Grant played central defensive midfield for Plymouth, he should do the same for us, again not going 20 yds past halfway. Currently he's out on the right wing, in the goalmouth but rarely where he should be. Little is our best right back, injuries permitting, as he showed against Wimbledon. Leahy can't defend, every game he makes mistakes, on Saturday why did he let the attacker move inside onto his left foot? Basic defending. According to his interview George Williams can play left back and is perhaps our best option there, if not then I would look at Tutonda again with George at RB. Neither should be trying to get to the opposition goal line. In midfield we don't have an OC (unfortunately) the best we have is McCormack who should play the box to box role. Ogogo (I'm not a fan) is our best option to cut out attacks. Oz or Westbrooke should be the creative midfielder with instructions to play ahead of Grant. Team: Day/Little, Kilgour, Baldwin, Williams/ Grant/ McCormack, Oz or Westbrook, Ogogo/ Hanlon, Nicholson. Tactics: Full backs/ Defensive midfielder: main role in defence not going too far past half way in open play. Grant looking to receive passes from defence. Restrict wide play to minimise counter attacks. Our corners only one person at corner. We waste a player with Oz and Westbrooke in the corner, miss out on potential goal scoring opportunities and risk breakaway attacks. Grant plus one full back should always be back on the half way line. 2 midfielders should be stationed on the edge of the box to pick up clearances to shoot or recycle plus stop breakaways. When the opposition has a corner there should always be either Oz or Westbrooke on the halfway line ensuring that we have an out route and they have to keep at least 2 players back. I appreciate that this will be too defensive for many but at the moment let's take a leaf out of GC book, keep some clean sheets, score a few goals and climb the table. Who was playing out of position on Saturday? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 18:31:49 GMT
His performance at Team Bath, his performance at Exeter and his performance at MK Dons all had playoff and or promotions with decent cup runs? Stuff we can only dream of lately? Yes they weren’t at Championship or League 1 level but managing is a capability and it isn’t different in the different leagues - just the quality you face changes.... he was also really really unlucky at MK after their promotion with a massive injury list affecting them.... So managing is the same at whatever level it’s just the opposition that changes. Strange that Liverpool and Man City waste all that money on Klopp and Pep when Tis might as well have a go in the Premiership. Like I said Tisdale seems like a nice bloke without any proven ability in the top half of the Third Division. Just seems strange that Wael has invested hugely in stabilising the club and setting up the training ground then we appoint a bang average manager. All very odd So on that basis no manager will ever move to a team in a higher division? Or get their first ever job in professional football for that matter. |
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Post by darkbluegas on Jan 31, 2021 18:38:51 GMT
So managing is the same at whatever level it’s just the opposition that changes. Strange that Liverpool and Man City waste all that money on Klopp and Pep when Tis might as well have a go in the Premiership. Like I said Tisdale seems like a nice bloke without any proven ability in the top half of the Third Division. Just seems strange that Wael has invested hugely in stabilising the club and setting up the training ground then we appoint a bang average manager. All very odd So on that basis no manager will ever move to a team in a higher division? Or get their first ever job in professional football for that matter. Of course they would. But after 20 years of failing to get beyond a certain level I think you’ve probably proved the extent of your talent. There does need to be some upward trajectory to go from one job to the next. In an odd way Garners appointment made more sense as it was a gamble on an untried man who came highly recommended by those in the game. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 18:53:33 GMT
His performance at Team Bath, his performance at Exeter and his performance at MK Dons all had playoff and or promotions with decent cup runs? Stuff we can only dream of lately? Yes they weren’t at Championship or League 1 level but managing is a capability and it isn’t different in the different leagues - just the quality you face changes.... he was also really really unlucky at MK after their promotion with a massive injury list affecting them.... So managing is the same at whatever level it’s just the opposition that changes. Strange that Liverpool and Man City waste all that money on Klopp and Pep when Tis might as well have a go in the Premiership. Like I said Tisdale seems like a nice bloke without any proven ability in the top half of the Third Division. Just seems strange that Wael has invested hugely in stabilising the club and setting up the training ground then we appoint a bang average manager. All very odd I get what you’re saying but it’s more than that.... Liverpool bought those managers based upon reputation and historic performance at equivalent levels.... they aren’t prepared to take a gamble and as their ‘brand’, sponsors, fans expectations wouldn’t allow it.... to be fair Klopp was a left field appointment as he had only been successful in Germany and wasn’t a ‘known’ name.... Just look at Moyes at Man Utd compared to his performance at Everton? Mourinho at Man Utd v his time at Chelsea and Tottenham...... Pulis at Stoke v his clubs since..... are they all bad managers or ‘bang average?’ ...... Tisdale isn’t top notch but he’s not bang average ..... he’s a good manager at this level..... |
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Post by carlts2020 on Jan 31, 2021 19:24:20 GMT
I don’t think Garner was as bad as has been made out.... not this season..... last (before it was suspended) he had dire form but I’ve always believed there were mitigating circumstances...... I appreciate others have a different opinion though... I also believe that we were starting to see shoots of improvement.... would we have improved enough to be safe and comfortable, we’ll never know..... Tisdale is a different manager and has proven himself over year and years and 1000 plus games managing as well as decent cup runs, promotions, high table finishes and play offs etc... he’s just having a sticky patch with us at the moment as he’s trying to get a new philosophy and playing style into a team that he inherited and we’re not his signings.... he will come good though... I firmly believe that he’s the right man for the job and will be a success with us and we’ll be successful with him "shoots of improvement" are different than 4-0 home thrashing by a team who parted with their manager shortly afterwards! |
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Post by carlts2020 on Jan 31, 2021 19:32:50 GMT
“Systematically destroyed”. The club were in absolutely no position to go into the championship. The training situation was a joke, the ground isn’t up to it and none of the infrastructure behind the scenes was in place. It was widely reported the club was losing £65k plus a week and had lots of plus 30 year old players on big wages for a club of our size and no resale value. Recruiting Garner and ripping the squad up was quite clearly a club plan from the owner downwards to create a sustainable, well run football club with proper infrastructure from academy upwards. Bring in young players that can be coached and improved, on lower salaries, with potential resale values for a profit whilst simultaneously cutting the wage bill and outgoing transfer expenditure. Of course there would be some short term pain. Of course there would be ups and downs but the plan had to be backed and followed through. The wage bill reduced, net spend reduced and the average age reduced under Garner. At the same time we added analysts / nutritionists and moved to the new training ground. The results so far were more than good enough to stay in the league (playing more than a fair share of the top teams and beating the teams around us). However, so many couldn’t wait to tear Garner to bits. He was on a. Hiding to nothing as you can’t rip the whole plan up and start again without a drop in performance. The long term outcome could have been a massive step forward but the same fans that hated on GC style of football were the same fans hating on Garner. Can you not see the owner is not going to throw money at sh** football, buying old journeyman and no visible plan or way forward. Alot of grief in that post, there. It's interesting that the points in my post aren't contested. "Systematically destroyed" and then go on to not address any of the points, attack the structure of the club that had played us over 5 years into a place of potential Championship football. Something we haven't seen in a generation. The post enthuses after long term plan....but at what cost? There's a huge difference between articulating the benefits of a theorised approach to long term sustainable youth football, then going to Southend United away and being outplayed by their youth team because we've employed an over complicated system that brings about confusion. I know, I was there. 3rd division football is a light year away from where we wished we could be and it's naive to expect that experiment to work unless you've got a light year to wait....in the meantime we were losing to the 91st placed league club....and BG continued to scratch his beard and make like for like subs, much like at Southend. Hey, I know things aren't perfect....hell, are they perfect anywhere? (Look over the river and there's plenty complaints on that s hole) but we were there, believing, playing well and winning, we were there, I was there singing walking out of Portman Road.......this season all we can sing coming out of Portman Road was the f*cking journey. It's not right for hijacking thread to deviate into a BG bashing, because it's not the time or place, but if BG is such a desirable commodity, why hasn't he been snapped up by....Sheff Wed or Cardiff (before MM) or any club else? I was at Southend as well. It was dire, probably the low point of the season. However, the long term plan was working. I am a stats geek but I appreciate live football tells a different story so I do both. But...the plan was working. Bare with me: Garners first 13 games = 0.54 points per game Garners last 12 games = 1.25 points per game Split even further into more recent sets of games: Garner first 9 games = 0.44 points per game. Garner second 8 games = 1.00 points per game. Garner last 8 games = 1.38 points per game. The trajectory is exactly what you would expect of a new, rookie, young manager in their first job. Just resonate on the key point here. We sacked a manager with 1.38 points per game in the last 8 games. |
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Post by carlts2020 on Jan 31, 2021 19:36:29 GMT
Noticed Fleetwood have appointed Simon Grayson typical when we r playing them on Saturday Didn't Simon Grayson flop at his last 3 jobs at Blackpool, Bradford and Sunderland, you'd have been totally underwhelmed if he'd replaced BG. I'm not sure how these people still keep getting jobs! Genuine question...if you were a Fleetwood fan would you prefer Grayson or Garner? |
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Post by carlts2020 on Jan 31, 2021 19:39:01 GMT
I don’t think Garner was as bad as has been made out.... not this season..... last (before it was suspended) he had dire form but I’ve always believed there were mitigating circumstances...... I appreciate others have a different opinion though... I also believe that we were starting to see shoots of improvement.... would we have improved enough to be safe and comfortable, we’ll never know..... Tisdale is a different manager and has proven himself over year and years and 1000 plus games managing as well as decent cup runs, promotions, high table finishes and play offs etc... he’s just having a sticky patch with us at the moment as he’s trying to get a new philosophy and playing style into a team that he inherited and we’re not his signings.... he will come good though... I firmly believe that he’s the right man for the job and will be a success with us and we’ll be successful with him "shoots of improvement" are different than 4-0 home thrashing by a team who parted with their manager shortly afterwards! It was 4-1...the following week they smashed Plymouth 5-1 and had won 4 out of the last 5 games. |
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Post by carlts2020 on Jan 31, 2021 19:41:06 GMT
So managing is the same at whatever level it’s just the opposition that changes. Strange that Liverpool and Man City waste all that money on Klopp and Pep when Tis might as well have a go in the Premiership. Like I said Tisdale seems like a nice bloke without any proven ability in the top half of the Third Division. Just seems strange that Wael has invested hugely in stabilising the club and setting up the training ground then we appoint a bang average manager. All very odd I get what you’re saying but it’s more than that.... Liverpool bought those managers based upon reputation and historic performance at equivalent levels.... they aren’t prepared to take a gamble and as their ‘brand’, sponsors, fans expectations wouldn’t allow it.... to be fair Klopp was a left field appointment as he had only been successful in Germany and wasn’t a ‘known’ name.... Just look at Moyes at Man Utd compared to his performance at Everton? Mourinho at Man Utd v his time at Chelsea and Tottenham...... Pulis at Stoke v his clubs since..... are they all bad managers or ‘bang average?’ ...... Tisdale isn’t top notch but he’s not bang average ..... he’s a good manager at this level..... Mourinho at Man Utd won the league cup and europa cup. |
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