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Post by purdownpoacher1 on Mar 27, 2021 18:10:58 GMT
You said it so much better than I could , thankyou oldie !
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Post by purdownpoacher1 on Mar 27, 2021 18:13:00 GMT
Guys I guess it's easy to allow one's political bias to enable viewing life, cause and effect, through that very narrow prism. Black and White, when it's never really quite like that. Looking back on this thread, I haven't read much support, if any, for the wording in the proposed act. So you don't support it, but you object to people making their objections to it, public. If you don't support it, perhaps for some of the reasons I have given from my standpoint, then say so. If you do support the wording then fair enough, say so. But don't hide behind nebulous arguments that the police will not actually do that. They will, because they will have to, by law. (Whether the CPS would actually prosecute any is another matter, as any female victim of attacks will tell you) I would argue that any free thinking democrat would object to this proposal in committee stage. You may well argue the opposite, but do so. Not pick on Purdown who chooses to be active. I suspect she may well be a lot younger than many of us on here, therefore will be the ones who have live with government acts like this for many years to come. Not us. Just like the families of the kids we sent to die in 2003. Under this law, if passed, any of us could be arrested for being a "nuisance" if we made public our objections to that government decision. I guess the bottom line is that history tells us that only action stops governments from acting with a "Carte Blanche", walk over our rights of freedom of assembly and association. You takes your choice, live with it. Just don't criticise or try to deny others for making a choice. You said it so much better than I could , thankyou oldie ! |
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Post by axegas on Mar 27, 2021 19:51:11 GMT
Guys I guess it's easy to allow one's political bias to enable viewing life, cause and effect, through that very narrow prism. Black and White, when it's never really quite like that. Looking back on this thread, I haven't read much support, if any, for the wording in the proposed act. So you don't support it, but you object to people making their objections to it, public. If you don't support it, perhaps for some of the reasons I have given from my standpoint, then say so. If you do support the wording then fair enough, say so. But don't hide behind nebulous arguments that the police will not actually do that. They will, because they will have to, by law. (Whether the CPS would actually prosecute any is another matter, as any female victim of attacks will tell you) I would argue that any free thinking democrat would object to this proposal in committee stage. You may well argue the opposite, but do so. Not pick on Purdown who chooses to be active. I suspect she may well be a lot younger than many of us on here, therefore will be the ones who have live with government acts like this for many years to come. Not us. Just like the families of the kids we sent to die in 2003. Under this law, if passed, any of us could be arrested for being a "nuisance" if we made public our objections to that government decision. I guess the bottom line is that history tells us that only action stops governments from acting with a "Carte Blanche", walk over our rights of freedom of assembly and association. You takes your choice, live with it. Just don't criticise or try to deny others for making a choice. Great post mate. |
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Post by blueridge on Mar 27, 2021 20:00:08 GMT
Guys I guess it's easy to allow one's political bias to enable viewing life, cause and effect, through that very narrow prism. Black and White, when it's never really quite like that. Looking back on this thread, I haven't read much support, if any, for the wording in the proposed act. So you don't support it, but you object to people making their objections to it, public. If you don't support it, perhaps for some of the reasons I have given from my standpoint, then say so. If you do support the wording then fair enough, say so. But don't hide behind nebulous arguments that the police will not actually do that. They will, because they will have to, by law. (Whether the CPS would actually prosecute any is another matter, as any female victim of attacks will tell you) I would argue that any free thinking democrat would object to this proposal in committee stage. You may well argue the opposite, but do so. Not pick on Purdown who chooses to be active. I suspect she may well be a lot younger than many of us on here, therefore will be the ones who have live with government acts like this for many years to come. Not us. Just like the families of the kids we sent to die in 2003. Under this law, if passed, any of us could be arrested for being a "nuisance" if we made public our objections to that government decision. I guess the bottom line is that history tells us that only action stops governments from acting with a "Carte Blanche", walk over our rights of freedom of assembly and association. You takes your choice, live with it. Just don't criticise or try to deny others for making a choice. Oldie Putting aside any political leanings, this country has been through and is going through the biggest crisis it has ever faced in our lifetime and it’s not over yet. We are agreed that anyone attending these protests is breaking the law of land and imo are selfish. How many of these demonstrators for example work in the public sector and are putting at increased risk any one they come into contact with - maybe working in a care home or a hospital. We’re all in this lockdown for a reason and we cannot imo pick and chose as to what we can and cannot do - there are c500k people in this city and the majority are abiding by the rules and I’m sure are absolutely disgusted at what they are witnessing. In these difficult times you know as well as I do that the way to protest is through the well established petition process, where any petition reaching over a 100k ticks will automatically trigger a Parliamentary Debate, if it hasn’t been achieved already they have until September to do so. A Parliamentary Debate will not be achieved through the kind of protests we have witnessed in this City over the last week - the Government will only harden its stance and use what we are seeing as reason to not change anything. I have never been on a demonstration and never likely to and personally I’m not too bothered by this Bill, and the apathy being shown by the majority of the population in the Uk suggest they aren’t too bothered either. I am surprised you condone someone breaking the law - I hope she doesn’t work in the public sector, has elderly parents or grandparents - but by the tone of her postings she doesn’t care anyway - she will shift blame on to the police. Selfish - just a bit!!! |
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Post by purdownpoacher1 on Mar 27, 2021 20:16:02 GMT
You really sound an unpleasant man , I try to see the good in everyone , but those remarks were vile , it is my parents and probably more so my grandparents that have instilled my values in me . My grandfather was a captain in the army and trained at Sandhurst , but in later years became active with CND . .. ... anyway what with yet another defeat , didn’t think we played that badly , but same old errors , il bid you goodnight UTG
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Post by axegas on Mar 27, 2021 20:20:56 GMT
Guys I guess it's easy to allow one's political bias to enable viewing life, cause and effect, through that very narrow prism. Black and White, when it's never really quite like that. Looking back on this thread, I haven't read much support, if any, for the wording in the proposed act. So you don't support it, but you object to people making their objections to it, public. If you don't support it, perhaps for some of the reasons I have given from my standpoint, then say so. If you do support the wording then fair enough, say so. But don't hide behind nebulous arguments that the police will not actually do that. They will, because they will have to, by law. (Whether the CPS would actually prosecute any is another matter, as any female victim of attacks will tell you) I would argue that any free thinking democrat would object to this proposal in committee stage. You may well argue the opposite, but do so. Not pick on Purdown who chooses to be active. I suspect she may well be a lot younger than many of us on here, therefore will be the ones who have live with government acts like this for many years to come. Not us. Just like the families of the kids we sent to die in 2003. Under this law, if passed, any of us could be arrested for being a "nuisance" if we made public our objections to that government decision. I guess the bottom line is that history tells us that only action stops governments from acting with a "Carte Blanche", walk over our rights of freedom of assembly and association. You takes your choice, live with it. Just don't criticise or try to deny others for making a choice. Oldie Putting aside any political leanings, this country has been through and is going through the biggest crisis it has ever faced in our lifetime and it’s not over yet. We are agreed that anyone attending these protests is breaking the law of land and imo are selfish. How many of these demonstrators for example work in the public sector and are putting at increased risk any one they come into contact with - maybe working in a care home or a hospital. We’re all in this lockdown for a reason and we cannot imo pick and chose as to what we can and cannot do - there are c500k people in this city and the majority are abiding by the rules and I’m sure are absolutely disgusted at what they are witnessing. In these difficult times you know as well as I do that the way to protest is through the well established petition process, where any petition reaching over a 100k ticks will automatically trigger a Parliamentary Debate, if it hasn’t been achieved already they have until September to do so. A Parliamentary Debate will not be achieved through the kind of protests we have witnessed in this City over the last week - the Government will only harden its stance and use what we are seeing as reason to not change anything. I have never been on a demonstration and never likely too and personally I’m not too bothered by this Bill, and the apathy being shown by the majority of the population in the Uk suggest they aren’t too bothered either. I am surprised you condone someone breaking the law - I hope she doesn’t work in the public sector, has elderly parents or grandparents - but by the tone of her postings she doesn’t care anyway - she will shift blame on to the police. Selfish - just a bit!!! Nothing selfish about peacefully exercising the democratic right to protest, especially when done with the precautions such as masks and social distancing where possible. Good on you Purdown. If the government are so keen to avoid protests, they shouldn’t attempt to pass draconian bills aimed at curtailing individuals democratic rights. Especially when there was already tension caused by the heavy handed response by the police at a murdered women’s vigil. This is on them as much as anyone. It does make me wonder if all these people so willing to call people selfish for peacefully protesting would do so, if the thing that they were protesting was something that they cared about. The fact is most elderly people have been vaccinated and cases are getting much lower, it may have been unacceptable at the pandemics height but I see no reason why protests can’t recommence now provided there is a good reason and social distancing is observed. |
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stuart1974
Proper Gas
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 27, 2021 20:24:20 GMT
Guys I guess it's easy to allow one's political bias to enable viewing life, cause and effect, through that very narrow prism. Black and White, when it's never really quite like that. Looking back on this thread, I haven't read much support, if any, for the wording in the proposed act. So you don't support it, but you object to people making their objections to it, public. If you don't support it, perhaps for some of the reasons I have given from my standpoint, then say so. If you do support the wording then fair enough, say so. But don't hide behind nebulous arguments that the police will not actually do that. They will, because they will have to, by law. (Whether the CPS would actually prosecute any is another matter, as any female victim of attacks will tell you) I would argue that any free thinking democrat would object to this proposal in committee stage. You may well argue the opposite, but do so. Not pick on Purdown who chooses to be active. I suspect she may well be a lot younger than many of us on here, therefore will be the ones who have live with government acts like this for many years to come. Not us. Just like the families of the kids we sent to die in 2003. Under this law, if passed, any of us could be arrested for being a "nuisance" if we made public our objections to that government decision. I guess the bottom line is that history tells us that only action stops governments from acting with a "Carte Blanche", walk over our rights of freedom of assembly and association. You takes your choice, live with it. Just don't criticise or try to deny others for making a choice. Oldie Putting aside any political leanings, this country has been through and is going through the biggest crisis it has ever faced in our lifetime and it’s not over yet. We are agreed that anyone attending these protests is breaking the law of land and imo are selfish. How many of these demonstrators for example work in the public sector and are putting at increased risk any one they come into contact with - maybe working in a care home or a hospital. We’re all in this lockdown for a reason and we cannot imo pick and chose as to what we can and cannot do - there are c500k people in this city and the majority are abiding by the rules and I’m sure are absolutely disgusted at what they are witnessing. In these difficult times you know as well as I do that the way to protest is through the well established petition process, where any petition reaching over a 100k ticks will automatically trigger a Parliamentary Debate, if it hasn’t been achieved already they have until September to do so. A Parliamentary Debate will not be achieved through the kind of protests we have witnessed in this City over the last week - the Government will only harden its stance and use what we are seeing as reason to not change anything. I have never been on a demonstration and never likely too and personally I’m not too bothered by this Bill, and the apathy being shown by the majority of the population in the Uk suggest they aren’t too bothered either. I am surprised you condone someone breaking the law - I hope she doesn’t work in the public sector, has elderly parents or grandparents - but by the tone of her postings she doesn’t care anyway - she will shift blame on to the police. Selfish - just a bit!!! The Bill will be debated anyway, but with an 80 majority it's largely academic. The on line petition doesn’t automatically generate a debate, it means it only has to be considered, so no guarantees. I'm genuinely split on this but some of the comments on here, aside from the legal during lockdown argument, is edging me towards backing the protests. The violence is indefensible, of course. The additional restrictions can have an affect on future demos, maybe it's not an issue for some, but one day it may be something much more close to the heart and apathy works both ways. It's times like these I recall Martin Niemöller famous prose. |
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Post by purdownpoacher1 on Mar 27, 2021 20:25:34 GMT
Thankyou axe . Utg
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Post by Gassy on Mar 27, 2021 20:31:09 GMT
Oldie Putting aside any political leanings, this country has been through and is going through the biggest crisis it has ever faced in our lifetime and it’s not over yet. We are agreed that anyone attending these protests is breaking the law of land and imo are selfish. How many of these demonstrators for example work in the public sector and are putting at increased risk any one they come into contact with - maybe working in a care home or a hospital. We’re all in this lockdown for a reason and we cannot imo pick and chose as to what we can and cannot do - there are c500k people in this city and the majority are abiding by the rules and I’m sure are absolutely disgusted at what they are witnessing. In these difficult times you know as well as I do that the way to protest is through the well established petition process, where any petition reaching over a 100k ticks will automatically trigger a Parliamentary Debate, if it hasn’t been achieved already they have until September to do so. A Parliamentary Debate will not be achieved through the kind of protests we have witnessed in this City over the last week - the Government will only harden its stance and use what we are seeing as reason to not change anything. I have never been on a demonstration and never likely too and personally I’m not too bothered by this Bill, and the apathy being shown by the majority of the population in the Uk suggest they aren’t too bothered either. I am surprised you condone someone breaking the law - I hope she doesn’t work in the public sector, has elderly parents or grandparents - but by the tone of her postings she doesn’t care anyway - she will shift blame on to the police. Selfish - just a bit!!! Nothing selfish about peacefully exercising the democratic right to protest, especially when done with the precautions such as masks and social distancing where possible. Good on you Purdown. If the government are so keen to avoid protests, they shouldn’t attempt to pass draconian bills aimed at curtailing individuals democratic rights. Especially when there was already tension caused by the heavy handed response by the police at a murdered women’s vigil. This is on them as much as anyone. It does make me wonder if all these people so willing to call people selfish for peacefully protesting would do so, if the thing that they were protesting was something that they cared about. The fact is most elderly people have been vaccinated and cases are getting much lower, it may have been unacceptable at the pandemics height but I see no reason why protests can’t recommence now provided there is a good reason and social distancing is observed. The bolded bit, essentially sums it all up. It was an absolutely idiotic decision to put through this bill at this time, they were only asking for this to happen. Then it happened, and they complained. On your last point about socially distancing, the issue is that these weren't though - not that I saw anyway. But let's be honest, we're all hypocrites here and will all support something we agree with or condemn something we don't. There are posters on here who didn't condemn Cummings, but condemn a peaceful protest that takes away human rights. Likewise, I support those attending these protests, but don't support the anti-lock down protests. |
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Post by blueridge on Mar 27, 2021 21:05:13 GMT
Oldie Putting aside any political leanings, this country has been through and is going through the biggest crisis it has ever faced in our lifetime and it’s not over yet. We are agreed that anyone attending these protests is breaking the law of land and imo are selfish. How many of these demonstrators for example work in the public sector and are putting at increased risk any one they come into contact with - maybe working in a care home or a hospital. We’re all in this lockdown for a reason and we cannot imo pick and chose as to what we can and cannot do - there are c500k people in this city and the majority are abiding by the rules and I’m sure are absolutely disgusted at what they are witnessing. In these difficult times you know as well as I do that the way to protest is through the well established petition process, where any petition reaching over a 100k ticks will automatically trigger a Parliamentary Debate, if it hasn’t been achieved already they have until September to do so. A Parliamentary Debate will not be achieved through the kind of protests we have witnessed in this City over the last week - the Government will only harden its stance and use what we are seeing as reason to not change anything. I have never been on a demonstration and never likely too and personally I’m not too bothered by this Bill, and the apathy being shown by the majority of the population in the Uk suggest they aren’t too bothered either. I am surprised you condone someone breaking the law - I hope she doesn’t work in the public sector, has elderly parents or grandparents - but by the tone of her postings she doesn’t care anyway - she will shift blame on to the police. Selfish - just a bit!!! The Bill will be debated anyway, but with an 80 majority it's largely academic. The on line petition doesn’t automatically generate a debate, it means it only has to be considered, so no guarantees. I'm genuinely split on this but some of the comments on here, aside from the legal during lockdown argument, is edging me towards backing the protests. The violence is indefensible, of course. The additional restrictions can have an affect on future demos, maybe it's not an issue for some, but one day it may be something much more close to the heart and apathy works both ways. It's times like these I recall Martin Niemöller famous prose. I was playing slightly devils advocate as I know the Bill will be debated - and I’m fairly sure that issues that oldie and thousands of other’s have mentioned regarding the “nuisance” word will be raised and amendments made and put to the Lords. |
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stuart1974
Proper Gas
Posts: 12,555
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 27, 2021 21:24:06 GMT
The Bill will be debated anyway, but with an 80 majority it's largely academic. The on line petition doesn’t automatically generate a debate, it means it only has to be considered, so no guarantees. I'm genuinely split on this but some of the comments on here, aside from the legal during lockdown argument, is edging me towards backing the protests. The violence is indefensible, of course. The additional restrictions can have an affect on future demos, maybe it's not an issue for some, but one day it may be something much more close to the heart and apathy works both ways. It's times like these I recall Martin Niemöller famous prose. I was playing slightly devils advocate as I know the Bill will be debated - and I’m fairly sure that issues that oldie and thousands of other’s have mentioned regarding the “nuisance” word will be raised and amendments made and put to the Lords. Hopefully, but what if they don't? If the Government is determined to include it, it'll get through eventually. The Lords only has the power to delay. |
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Post by axegas on Mar 27, 2021 23:40:52 GMT
Nothing selfish about peacefully exercising the democratic right to protest, especially when done with the precautions such as masks and social distancing where possible. Good on you Purdown. If the government are so keen to avoid protests, they shouldn’t attempt to pass draconian bills aimed at curtailing individuals democratic rights. Especially when there was already tension caused by the heavy handed response by the police at a murdered women’s vigil. This is on them as much as anyone. It does make me wonder if all these people so willing to call people selfish for peacefully protesting would do so, if the thing that they were protesting was something that they cared about. The fact is most elderly people have been vaccinated and cases are getting much lower, it may have been unacceptable at the pandemics height but I see no reason why protests can’t recommence now provided there is a good reason and social distancing is observed. The bolded bit, essentially sums it all up. It was an absolutely idiotic decision to put through this bill at this time, they were only asking for this to happen. Then it happened, and they complained. On your last point about socially distancing, the issue is that these weren't though - not that I saw anyway. But let's be honest, we're all hypocrites here and will all support something we agree with or condemn something we don't. There are posters on here who didn't condemn Cummings, but condemn a peaceful protest that takes away human rights. Likewise, I support those attending these protests, but don't support the anti-lock down protests. Well the gist of my argument on social distancing follows that if it is observed, then I support it, but yes I do feel uneasy about large crowds not following it. I don’t agree with anti-lockdown protests but if they were observing social distancing in some way, I would have no problem with them taking place. Does anyone see the irony in the fact that the tories that claim that protecting British democratic values is so dear to them, are going to vote this bill through? |
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Post by baggins on Mar 28, 2021 6:32:59 GMT
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Post by peterparker on Mar 28, 2021 7:12:30 GMT
That is a very bad fake. There is plenty of real images out there, so why someone mocked this up i have no idea |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 7:27:31 GMT
That is a very bad fake. There is plenty of real images out there, so why someone mocked this up i have no idea Assume it's a meme? Anyway... Kill the Bill Protests in Brighton last night, looks like no trouble... No police dressed in riot gear either, coincidence? |
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Post by blueridge on Mar 28, 2021 7:43:46 GMT
You really sound an unpleasant man , I try to see the good in everyone , but those remarks were vile , it is my parents and probably more so my grandparents that have instilled my values in me . My grandfather was a captain in the army and trained at Sandhurst , but in later years became active with CND . .. ... anyway what with yet another defeat , didn’t think we played that badly , but same old errors , il bid you goodnight UTG I would imagine at least 99% of those protesters have not been vaccinated, if you seriously believe that I would allow anyone near my frail Mum in her care home who I thought had been on that protest you are living in cloud cuckoo land. If that makes me an unpleasant man in your opinion I’m really not bothered - and no mention of the ‘unpleasant’ people when the the protest turned vile - I understand. But that’s only one small example - these protesters are going back into their workplace wherever that may be, after breaking all the social distancing rules. You may well have been part initially, of an illegal ‘peaceful’ protest but you were also fully aware that the protest was a catalyst that would likely lead to the disgusting scenes being witnessed in our City, again You have not mentioned one word in condemnation of the violence apart from alleged violence dished out by one police officer - which was probably in self defence and you also highlighted, to try and gain the moral high ground that the the police did not suffer broken bones in an earlier protest. Have a nice day. |
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Post by baggins on Mar 28, 2021 7:56:02 GMT
That is a very bad fake. There is plenty of real images out there, so why someone mocked this up i have no idea Must admit, just looked at it, saved it, posted it. Out of interest, how can you tell it's a fake? |
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Post by peterparker on Mar 28, 2021 7:59:29 GMT
That is a very bad fake. There is plenty of real images out there, so why someone mocked this up i have no idea Must admit, just looked at it, saved it, posted it. Out of interest, how can you tell it's a fake? Seen it doing the rounds and had a look a few times. Zoom in on the hand holding the pipe. Looks a bit dodge to me |
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Post by baggins on Mar 28, 2021 8:17:08 GMT
You really sound an unpleasant man , I try to see the good in everyone , but those remarks were vile , it is my parents and probably more so my grandparents that have instilled my values in me . My grandfather was a captain in the army and trained at Sandhurst , but in later years became active with CND . .. ... anyway what with yet another defeat , didn’t think we played that badly , but same old errors , il bid you goodnight UTG I would imagine at least 99% of those protesters have not been vaccinated, if you seriously believe that I would allow anyone near my frail Mum in her care home who I thought had been on that protest you are living in cloud cuckoo land. If that makes me an unpleasant man in your opinion I’m really not bothered - and no mention of the ‘unpleasant’ people when the the protest turned vile - I understand. But that’s only one small example - these protesters are going back into their workplace wherever that may be, after breaking all the social distancing rules. You may well have been part initially, of an illegal ‘peaceful’ protest but you were also fully aware that the protest was a catalyst that would likely lead to the disgusting scenes being witnessed in our City, again You have not mentioned one word in condemnation of the violence apart from alleged violence dished out by one police officer - which was probably in self defence and you also highlighted, to try and gain the moral high ground that the the police did not suffer broken bones in an earlier protest. Have a nice day. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 10:14:10 GMT
I meant what similar names , but different views , apart from yourself oldgas, and a notable few , finding it quite depressing on here , never mind onwards and upwards , bfn 💙 Quite depressing yeah, but not as much as the rovers section! Can't bring myself to post in there for ages now as there isn't much you can say about crap football. Do find you get a good cross section of views in here though, without the attention seeking you'd get on Twitter or Facebook. |
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