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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 1, 2021 14:21:53 GMT
Firstly, how do you know their views don’t represent the majority of people? Secondly, you’re then suggesting that for any protest to take place and disrupt things, the majority must be in support of the reason they’re protesting. Which is crazy IMO How do you know they do? Ive got no issue with peaceful protest, it is a cherished freedom denied to probably more than half the worlds population. Take your Chinese Communist utopia for example. The last time they tried demonstrating there they got run over with tanks. However, these demonstrations need to remain under control and should co-operate with the authorities. In that way, the usual left wing rabble who infiltrate these demos, with their stated aim of overthrowing democracy and replacing the government could be controlled. Lets not forget their stated aim is to install a Communist dictatorship which, guess what? Would ban all protests and probably run over anyone who tried it with tanks. Firstly, you had the initial claim so the burden of proof is on you. Secondly, your diatribe is outdated and unnecessary waffle. Not sure Marx and Engles would recognise the Chinese Communist Party. Don't forget the Hong Kong protesters, that started with a change in the law. They had the right to protest and has since been targeted by police for 'infringements'. We lose our rights and freedoms too easily.
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Post by oldie on Apr 1, 2021 14:28:40 GMT
How do you know they do? Ive got no issue with peaceful protest, it is a cherished freedom denied to probably more than half the worlds population. Take your Chinese Communist utopia for example. The last time they tried demonstrating there they got run over with tanks. However, these demonstrations need to remain under control and should co-operate with the authorities. In that way, the usual left wing rabble who infiltrate these demos, with their stated aim of overthrowing democracy and replacing the government could be controlled. Lets not forget their stated aim is to install a Communist dictatorship which, guess what? Would ban all protests and probably run over anyone who tried it with tanks. Firstly, you had the initial claim so the burden of proof is on you. Secondly, your diatribe is outdated and unnecessary waffle. Not sure Marx and Engles would recognise the Chinese Communist Party. Don't forget the Hong Kong protesters, that started with a change in the law. They had the right to protest and has since been targeted by police for 'infringements'. We lose our rights and freedoms too easily. Nicely put Stuart
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Post by blueridge on Apr 1, 2021 16:15:26 GMT
Does it though? As far as I can tell all the bill seeks to do is ensure proper consultation between protest organisers, the Police, L A etc etc so the protesters can have their say without causing disruption to countless thousands of others who aren’t protesting. Seems eminently reasonable to me, unless, of course, you’re part of an aggressive left-wing anti-democracy hate mob waiting in the wings to hijack the event, and use it to commit the kind of mayhem we’ve seen recently from BLM, Reclaim the Streets, etc etc. This is the list of changes: "How will the bill change those powers? Police chiefs will be able to put more conditions on static protests. They will be able to: Impose a start and finish time Set noise limits Apply these rules to a demonstration by just one person Taken to an extreme, let's say there's an individual holding a protest placard, while blasting out their views on a speaker. If they refuse to follow police directions over how they should conduct their protest, they could be fined up to £2,500. Personally, I don't have an issue with any of the above. This works both ways for all of us whether we agree with a particular protest or not. Or even more of an "extreme" I wouldn't want an individual outside my house at 2am shouting through a megaphone holding a placard because he feels he has the right to protest.
It will also become a crime to fail to follow restrictions the protesters "ought" to have known about, even if they have not received a direct order from an officer. At present, police need to prove protesters knew they had been told to move on, before they can be said to have broken the law. IMO this is nebulous/vague and requires unambiguous wording. I'm fairly confident this will be debated in the House and amended.The proposed law includes an offence of "intentionally or recklessly causing public nuisance". This is designed to stop people occupying public spaces, hanging off bridges, gluing themselves to windows, or employing other protest tactics to make themselves both seen and heard. Again IMO this needs rewording eg "occupying public spaces" without prior agreement. Unchecked this could result in issues: eg if a public park for instance is already occupied by non protesters enjoying the space with their families. The last part (employing other protest tactics etc) imo is again nebulous.One final measure clarifies that damage to memorials could lead to up to 10 years in prison. This follows the toppling of a statue of slave trader Edward Colston in Bristol." A magistrate is unable to impose a sentence of up to 10 years. This would be a very serious offence and could only be dealt with at Crown Court - a jury will decide the verdict - a Judge will impose the tariff - I don't see the problem with this one.
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Apr 1, 2021 16:28:53 GMT
Can’t wait for the next progressive alliance government, who’ll hopefully rejoin the EU , let in more refugees, increase taxes for the rich and ship out of the country anyone with racist views .
It’s good to know that the ‘right’ on here won’t be out protesting as they agree with the Bill.
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Post by oldgas on Apr 1, 2021 18:07:32 GMT
Does it though? As far as I can tell all the bill seeks to do is ensure proper consultation between protest organisers, the Police, L A etc etc so the protesters can have their say without causing disruption to countless thousands of others who aren’t protesting. Seems eminently reasonable to me, unless, of course, you’re part of an aggressive left-wing anti-democracy hate mob waiting in the wings to hijack the event, and use it to commit the kind of mayhem we’ve seen recently from BLM, Reclaim the Streets, etc etc. This is the list of changes: "How will the bill change those powers? Police chiefs will be able to put more conditions on static protests. They will be able to: Impose a start and finish time Set noise limits Apply these rules to a demonstration by just one person Taken to an extreme, let's say there's an individual holding a protest placard, while blasting out their views on a speaker. If they refuse to follow police directions over how they should conduct their protest, they could be fined up to £2,500. It will also become a crime to fail to follow restrictions the protesters "ought" to have known about, even if they have not received a direct order from an officer. At present, police need to prove protesters knew they had been told to move on, before they can be said to have broken the law. The proposed law includes an offence of "intentionally or recklessly causing public nuisance". This is designed to stop people occupying public spaces, hanging off bridges, gluing themselves to windows, or employing other protest tactics to make themselves both seen and heard. One final measure clarifies that damage to memorials could lead to up to 10 years in prison. This follows the toppling of a statue of slave trader Edward Colston in Bristol." So, providing protesters follow the rules, hopefully laid down in legislation, they can protest all they want. Whats all the fuss about?
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Post by oldgas on Apr 1, 2021 18:13:26 GMT
How do you know they do? Ive got no issue with peaceful protest, it is a cherished freedom denied to probably more than half the worlds population. Take your Chinese Communist utopia for example. The last time they tried demonstrating there they got run over with tanks. However, these demonstrations need to remain under control and should co-operate with the authorities. In that way, the usual left wing rabble who infiltrate these demos, with their stated aim of overthrowing democracy and replacing the government could be controlled. Lets not forget their stated aim is to install a Communist dictatorship which, guess what? Would ban all protests and probably run over anyone who tried it with tanks. Firstly, you had the initial claim so the burden of proof is on you. Secondly, your diatribe is outdated and unnecessary waffle. Not sure Marx and Engles would recognise the Chinese Communist Party. Don't forget the Hong Kong protesters, that started with a change in the law. They had the right to protest and has since been targeted by police for 'infringements'. We lose our rights and freedoms too easily. Desperate lengths to compare this legislation with Chinese action in Hong Kong. And saying comment about the Chinese state suppression in Tianaman Square is waffle discloses a worrying ignorance of the lessons from history. And you seem to view any argument against your position as a diatribe Do you dismiss people who discuss the 3rd Reich and Holocaust as wafflers? I’m a bit surprised at that.
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Post by oldgas on Apr 1, 2021 18:16:37 GMT
Can’t wait for the next progressive alliance government, who’ll hopefully rejoin the EU , let in more refugees, increase taxes for the rich and ship out of the country anyone with racist views . It’s good to know that the ‘right’ on here won’t be out protesting as they agree with the Bill. Even better if they ship out all those who scream ‘Racist’ at anyone who disagrees with them. Got your bags packed ready?
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Apr 1, 2021 18:40:29 GMT
Can’t wait for the next progressive alliance government, who’ll hopefully rejoin the EU , let in more refugees, increase taxes for the rich and ship out of the country anyone with racist views . It’s good to know that the ‘right’ on here won’t be out protesting as they agree with the Bill. Even better if they ship out all those who scream ‘Racist’ at anyone who disagrees with them. Got your bags packed ready? Ooh look , it’s the ticket collector 👀 🚂
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Post by oldgas on Apr 1, 2021 18:52:05 GMT
Even better if they ship out all those who scream ‘Racist’ at anyone who disagrees with them. Got your bags packed ready? Ooh look , it’s the ticket collector 👀 🚂 ? ? ?
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Post by oldie on Apr 1, 2021 19:26:06 GMT
For me, this sums it up
Blueridge writes
What we are allowing to happen, if this goes through, is for the Government, through the police to decide where, how long and what we can shout about at a demonstration. In other words, like Hong Kong by the Chinese government in Peking, effectively shut down any anti government or anti rule demonstration that displeases them.
This to me is tyranny. I cannot believe that any UK citizen, one who knows our history, would so happily and readily give up the liberal freedoms that have evolved, in law, over the last 200 years in our country.
Quite frankly I find it amazing.
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 1, 2021 19:35:50 GMT
Firstly, you had the initial claim so the burden of proof is on you. Secondly, your diatribe is outdated and unnecessary waffle. Not sure Marx and Engles would recognise the Chinese Communist Party. Don't forget the Hong Kong protesters, that started with a change in the law. They had the right to protest and has since been targeted by police for 'infringements'. We lose our rights and freedoms too easily. Desperate lengths to compare this legislation with Chinese action in Hong Kong. And saying comment about the Chinese state suppression in Tianaman Square is waffle discloses a worrying ignorance of the lessons from history. And you seem to view any argument against your position as a diatribe Do you dismiss people who discuss the 3rd Reich and Holocaust as wafflers? I’m a bit surprised at that. Not at all, the diatribe and waffle reference was to you bringing up the subject, you were the one making the comparison. I was merely pointing out that Tianaman Square wasn't the last time and missing out Hong Kong seemed remiss of you. I still recall watching it live, as I did all the big events in 1989, including the Romanian uprising with the army going public saying they would not fire on the people, in contrast to China. It was very emotional and played a big part of my younger years. The comparison is exaggerated but the point remains, laws change. If you think I don't take those events seriously or that of the Third Reich/Holocaust then you really don't know me.
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Post by oldie on Apr 1, 2021 19:42:23 GMT
Desperate lengths to compare this legislation with Chinese action in Hong Kong. And saying comment about the Chinese state suppression in Tianaman Square is waffle discloses a worrying ignorance of the lessons from history. And you seem to view any argument against your position as a diatribe Do you dismiss people who discuss the 3rd Reich and Holocaust as wafflers? I’m a bit surprised at that. Not at all, the diatribe and waffle reference was to you bringing up the subject, you were the one making the comparison. I was merely pointing out that Tianaman Square wasn't the last time and missing out Hong Kong seemed remiss of you. I still recall watching it live, as I did all the big events in 1989, including the Romanian uprising with the army going public saying they would not fire on the people, in contrast to China. It was very emotional and played a big part of my younger years. The comparison is exaggerated but the point remains, laws change. If you think I don't take those events seriously or that of the Third Reich/Holocaust then you really don't know me. Well said mate
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Post by oldgas on Apr 2, 2021 7:45:04 GMT
Desperate lengths to compare this legislation with Chinese action in Hong Kong. And saying comment about the Chinese state suppression in Tianaman Square is waffle discloses a worrying ignorance of the lessons from history. And you seem to view any argument against your position as a diatribe Do you dismiss people who discuss the 3rd Reich and Holocaust as wafflers? I’m a bit surprised at that. Not at all, the diatribe and waffle reference was to you bringing up the subject, you were the one making the comparison. I was merely pointing out that Tianaman Square wasn't the last time and missing out Hong Kong seemed remiss of you. I still recall watching it live, as I did all the big events in 1989, including the Romanian uprising with the army going public saying they would not fire on the people, in contrast to China. It was very emotional and played a big part of my younger years. The comparison is exaggerated but the point remains, laws change. If you think I don't take those events seriously or that of the Third Reich/Holocaust then you really don't know me. I was pointing out that a total Communist state like China books no argument and was quite happy to slaughter protesters by crushing them with tanks the last time they had a mainland riot. With communism there is no meeting half way. The state is in control, is always right and therefore demonstration is a crime against the state and will be ruthlessly put down. To describe that as a diatribe and waffle is therefore ridiculous. As for Hong Kong, you must be aware there were a number of conditions and guarantees signed up to by the Chinese when we handed the province over. They have had to abide by them to maintain international credibility while they built their power. Now they are mostly unassailable both militarily and through world trade influence they had the excuse they needed and dealt with the Hong Kong protests. They put their troops in there and I don’t suppose they’ll ever leave. Hong Kong has gone, and I don’t suppose Taiwan will last as long as another decade before they’re subsumed. To say that the laws on protesting in this country being adjusted to account for the new wave and level of lawlessness to deal with those factors can be equated with the actions of China, however loosely, is ridiculous. I can’t believe that a libertarian like yourself would be anything other than horrified by China’s actions, and would expect you to condemn anyone who lauds the communist system as anything other than horrendous and a blight on humanity. But there you go.
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Post by baggins on Apr 2, 2021 8:59:02 GMT
A 25-year-old man has been charged with attempted arson with intent to endanger life in connection with an incident in which a lit item was placed under an occupied police van.
The incident happened during a violent disorder in Bridewell Street, Bristol, on Sunday 21 March.
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 2, 2021 9:01:34 GMT
Not at all, the diatribe and waffle reference was to you bringing up the subject, you were the one making the comparison. I was merely pointing out that Tianaman Square wasn't the last time and missing out Hong Kong seemed remiss of you. I still recall watching it live, as I did all the big events in 1989, including the Romanian uprising with the army going public saying they would not fire on the people, in contrast to China. It was very emotional and played a big part of my younger years. The comparison is exaggerated but the point remains, laws change. If you think I don't take those events seriously or that of the Third Reich/Holocaust then you really don't know me. I was pointing out that a total Communist state like China books no argument and was quite happy to slaughter protesters by crushing them with tanks the last time they had a mainland riot. With communism there is no meeting half way. The state is in control, is always right and therefore demonstration is a crime against the state and will be ruthlessly put down. To describe that as a diatribe and waffle is therefore ridiculous. As for Hong Kong, you must be aware there were a number of conditions and guarantees signed up to by the Chinese when we handed the province over. They have had to abide by them to maintain international credibility while they built their power. Now they are mostly unassailable both militarily and through world trade influence they had the excuse they needed and dealt with the Hong Kong protests. They put their troops in there and I don’t suppose they’ll ever leave. Hong Kong has gone, and I don’t suppose Taiwan will last as long as another decade before they’re subsumed. To say that the laws on protesting in this country being adjusted to account for the new wave and level of lawlessness to deal with those factors can be equated with the actions of China, however loosely, is ridiculous. I can’t believe that a libertarian like yourself would be anything other than horrified by China’s actions, and would expect you to condemn anyone who lauds the communist system as anything other than horrendous and a blight on humanity. But there you go. Not the incident itself but your way of equating it in the earlier post, then you claim I am trying to equate it. On the subject of China, yes I am appalled by their actions, historically and now, and have grave concerns over their growing influence worldwide. To suggest that I am in any way 'lauding' is wrong. If you are trying to imply I am then you have misread what I have said.
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 2, 2021 9:04:26 GMT
A 25-year-old man has been charged with attempted arson with intent to endanger life in connection with an incident in which a lit item was placed under an occupied police van. The incident happened during a violent disorder in Bridewell Street, Bristol, on Sunday 21 March. He was arrested in Plymouth, nice and local.😐
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Apr 2, 2021 9:12:01 GMT
A 25-year-old man has been charged with attempted arson with intent to endanger life in connection with an incident in which a lit item was placed under an occupied police van. The incident happened during a violent disorder in Bridewell Street, Bristol, on Sunday 21 March. He was arrested in Plymouth, nice and local.😐 It’s a Derby match so must be local.
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 2, 2021 9:28:53 GMT
He was arrested in Plymouth, nice and local.😐 It’s a Derby match so must be local. Anything outside the M25 is local according to the London centric media. My wife was asked to travel to Berkshire because her London based boss thought she lived closer.
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Post by oldie on Apr 2, 2021 10:15:26 GMT
I was pointing out that a total Communist state like China books no argument and was quite happy to slaughter protesters by crushing them with tanks the last time they had a mainland riot. With communism there is no meeting half way. The state is in control, is always right and therefore demonstration is a crime against the state and will be ruthlessly put down. To describe that as a diatribe and waffle is therefore ridiculous. As for Hong Kong, you must be aware there were a number of conditions and guarantees signed up to by the Chinese when we handed the province over. They have had to abide by them to maintain international credibility while they built their power. Now they are mostly unassailable both militarily and through world trade influence they had the excuse they needed and dealt with the Hong Kong protests. They put their troops in there and I don’t suppose they’ll ever leave. Hong Kong has gone, and I don’t suppose Taiwan will last as long as another decade before they’re subsumed. To say that the laws on protesting in this country being adjusted to account for the new wave and level of lawlessness to deal with those factors can be equated with the actions of China, however loosely, is ridiculous. I can’t believe that a libertarian like yourself would be anything other than horrified by China’s actions, and would expect you to condemn anyone who lauds the communist system as anything other than horrendous and a blight on humanity. But there you go. Not the incident itself but your way of equating it in the earlier post, then you claim I am trying to equate it. On the subject of China, yes I am appalled by their actions, historically and now, and have grave concerns over their growing influence worldwide. To suggest that I am in any way 'lauding' is wrong. If you are trying to imply I am then you have misread what I have said. Sometimes, nah mostly, I don't think he understands what he has written.
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henry
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Post by henry on Apr 2, 2021 10:49:55 GMT
A 25-year-old man has been charged with attempted arson with intent to endanger life in connection with an incident in which a lit item was placed under an occupied police van. The incident happened during a violent disorder in Bridewell Street, Bristol, on Sunday 21 March. He was arrested in Plymouth, nice and local.😐 I mentioned in another post that activists and members of antifa were paid to attend protests and cause disruption just like the right have infiltrators to do the same. There have been many documentaries over the years highlighting this like those up the trees to prevent a road being built somewhere up country and the legendary’swampy’ in his underground lair. I think it was £10 on top of their dole money but maybe wrong. Also, he may be a student from Bristol studying for example either way throw the book at him and set the example to others.
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