|
Post by yetigas on Aug 14, 2021 11:15:49 GMT
In Garners last 10 games we lost 3 times - two of which were against Hull and Peterborough who finished 1st and 2nd. We won 4 of those games, so 40% win ratio. It was a VERY strange time to sack him. When you look at a managers performance I would argue that when things are improving you stick with the manager. I would say the same with JB - the improvement has yet to be seen, but assuming it comes soon (I live in hope!) then I would judge him on those results. If I understand your logic right then you would want JB gone now as he has done an awful job judging by results to date. The trouble is we sack him now, then another manager inherits his players and makes the same excuses as JB and we then have to wait another season. So I feel we should have stuck with Garner last season and (court cases allowing) we should stick with JB this season. Stats only tell half the story, and are useless without context. Like I have said before on here many a time, the results were mostly against teams who were also in a relegation battle with us anyway, and the performances weren't getting any better. So I respectfully disagree strongly that things were getting better. Ben demonstrated little ability to impact our game from the sidelines and that was ultimately what got him the sack from a board who backed him far beyond the point most other clubs would. Would I get rid of Joe now? No, I'd stick with him based strictly on playing matters. But that's again because whilst their stats might be similar, the context is wildly different. One manager took over a squad who would grind a win out of the most difficult of circumstances. The other manager took over a squad who couldn't buy a win. One turned our form around for the worse, another failed to turn it around from a dire situation. BG's inherited squad might not have been the prettiest b ut they were capable of grinding out results - the squad he built and handed over to PT and subsequently JB was woeful. Resultingly I judge them differently and I'm willing to give JB a chance to rebuild the club. Yes they were, but if my memory serves me correctly, BG was brought in to change the style of football, and that was impossible with the players we had. By the time he was sacked we were picking up results and playing well in patches. Changlng a playing style takes time, and having brought in his own players BG should have been given more time to make his approach work. JB, for perhaps different reasons, was also backed to bring in his own players and yes, he does need time to make it work. He hasn't done it yet, but like BG should have been backed last season, JB should be given the chance this season. So perhaps at least we agree on that, even if we don't on BG!
|
|
|
Post by gasify on Aug 14, 2021 11:36:45 GMT
It’s difficult not to be negative with the wife beating bully boy. When his record is so bad. On and off the pitch. My big problem is l hate bullies. Everyone should, shouldn’t they I understand your view and I completely agree that bullies shouldn’t be given the time of day but until it is proven that he is guilty, we only have tabloid press stories that will write what they want / exaggerate etc to sell more copies….. not saying he didn’t do it, but just that before labelling someone with what could be construed slanderous, people should hear the full story or at least hear both sides of the argument…. @bluestickgas I think it has been proved in a court of law that JB is a bully. www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/joey-bartons-most-disgraceful-controversies-23544106He has even been to prison. I think on the balance of evidence, he is what can be described as a bully. It's only the next two court cases that you can say he is innocent until proven guilty, which is absolutely correct. However, when I looked up bully on Google it gave me a picture of JB.
|
|
|
Post by gasify on Aug 14, 2021 11:43:09 GMT
kingswoodpirate70, Totally out of order. Try saying it to his face if you feel that strongly about it. Stevek192, this is hilarious. You are trying to defend a bully by asking a poster to say it to his face with captain subtext of "If you say it to his face, he will lamp you one". Or have I misunderstood and you mean that if you say it to his face that he will welcome you in for a pint to discuss what is a bully and how his historic actions are not within the framework of that definition.
|
|
|
Post by Strange Gas on Aug 14, 2021 12:38:00 GMT
Just listened, quite enjoyed it to be honest. He’s a great storyteller, good chat show material. And I personally like having a manager I like hearing from, always a strength of GF, JW and DC. However his w**king on about his past and referencing top flight managers is pretty irrelevant to where he now finds himself. And talk is cheap.
His style of management is interesting and won’t appeal to all but why it’s so critical he recruited what he needs. Not much empathy and very much my way or the highway. No idea if he has or those that have joined know what to expect but will give him benefit of doubt for now and judge on results. Gonna be interesting that’s for sure.
|
|
|
Post by Topper Gas on Aug 14, 2021 12:39:53 GMT
Stats only tell half the story, and are useless without context. Like I have said before on here many a time, the results were mostly against teams who were also in a relegation battle with us anyway, and the performances weren't getting any better. So I respectfully disagree strongly that things were getting better. Ben demonstrated little ability to impact our game from the sidelines and that was ultimately what got him the sack from a board who backed him far beyond the point most other clubs would. Would I get rid of Joe now? No, I'd stick with him based strictly on playing matters. But that's again because whilst their stats might be similar, the context is wildly different. One manager took over a squad who would grind a win out of the most difficult of circumstances. The other manager took over a squad who couldn't buy a win. One turned our form around for the worse, another failed to turn it around from a dire situation. BG's inherited squad might not have been the prettiest b ut they were capable of grinding out results - the squad he built and handed over to PT and subsequently JB was woeful. Resultingly I judge them differently and I'm willing to give JB a chance to rebuild the club. Yes they were, but if my memory serves me correctly, BG was brought in to change the style of football, and that was impossible with the players we had. By the time he was sacked we were picking up results and playing well in patches. Changlng a playing style takes time, and having brought in his own players BG should have been given more time to make his approach work. JB, for perhaps different reasons, was also backed to bring in his own players and yes, he does need time to make it work. He hasn't done it yet, but like BG should have been backed last season, JB should be given the chance this season. So perhaps at least we agree on that, even if we don't on BG! BG was backed last season but the surrender to Fleetwood showed that he was never going to turn things around at Rovers.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2021 15:03:09 GMT
I understand your view and I completely agree that bullies shouldn’t be given the time of day but until it is proven that he is guilty, we only have tabloid press stories that will write what they want / exaggerate etc to sell more copies….. not saying he didn’t do it, but just that before labelling someone with what could be construed slanderous, people should hear the full story or at least hear both sides of the argument…. @bluestickgas I think it has been proved in a court of law that JB is a bully. www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/joey-bartons-most-disgraceful-controversies-23544106He has even been to prison. I think on the balance of evidence, he is what can be described as a bully. It's only the next two court cases that you can say he is innocent until proven guilty, which is absolutely correct. However, when I looked up bully on Google it gave me a picture of JB. I think you’ll find that his Prison sentence was many many years ago and that the article linked is a tabloid print that has provided a biased view… he had issues in his youth, he has undergone anger management and what isn’t in the paper print is that he didn’t stub a cigar out in a youth team players eye, the youth team player set fire to the jacket Barton was wearing and as he turned round the cigar caught the players face accidentally…. Barton obviously wasn’t happy and did then have strong physical words with the player but would you just accept someone setting fire to you? The beach fight was instigated by the other group and started on his guests not Barton. Barton then went to help his friends…. The tabloids and press only put forward stories that will sell and not both sides of any incidents as it doesn’t provide sensational reading…. Barton is no Angel but he is not the bully and thug being made out - not now. He has learned from his past (or at least I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt that he has). I stole some sweets from my local newsagent when I was a kid about 40 years ago…. and about 30 years ago I got into a fight at school and gave someone a black eye - Does that make me a person who should be labelled a thug and thief for the rest of my life even though I’ve never been in a fight or stollen anything in about 25 years or more? As I say - if he is proven guilty then he should and could be labelled whatever, but I think people should treat him with an open mind and clean slate
|
|
|
Post by yetigas on Aug 14, 2021 15:21:16 GMT
Yes they were, but if my memory serves me correctly, BG was brought in to change the style of football, and that was impossible with the players we had. By the time he was sacked we were picking up results and playing well in patches. Changlng a playing style takes time, and having brought in his own players BG should have been given more time to make his approach work. JB, for perhaps different reasons, was also backed to bring in his own players and yes, he does need time to make it work. He hasn't done it yet, but like BG should have been backed last season, JB should be given the chance this season. So perhaps at least we agree on that, even if we don't on BG! BG was backed last season but the surrender to Fleetwood showed that he was never going to turn things around at Rovers. Did it? I guess you can pick out bits of evidence to suit your agenda.
|
|
|
Post by gasify on Aug 14, 2021 18:29:08 GMT
@bluestickgas I think it has been proved in a court of law that JB is a bully. www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/joey-bartons-most-disgraceful-controversies-23544106He has even been to prison. I think on the balance of evidence, he is what can be described as a bully. It's only the next two court cases that you can say he is innocent until proven guilty, which is absolutely correct. However, when I looked up bully on Google it gave me a picture of JB. I think you’ll find that his Prison sentence was many many years ago and that the article linked is a tabloid print that has provided a biased view… he had issues in his youth, he has undergone anger management and what isn’t in the paper print is that he didn’t stub a cigar out in a youth team players eye, the youth team player set fire to the jacket Barton was wearing and as he turned round the cigar caught the players face accidentally…. Barton obviously wasn’t happy and did then have strong physical words with the player but would you just accept someone setting fire to you? The beach fight was instigated by the other group and started on his guests not Barton. Barton then went to help his friends…. The tabloids and press only put forward stories that will sell and not both sides of any incidents as it doesn’t provide sensational reading…. Barton is no Angel but he is not the bully and thug being made out - not now. He has learned from his past (or at least I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt that he has). I stole some sweets from my local newsagent when I was a kid about 40 years ago…. and about 30 years ago I got into a fight at school and gave someone a black eye - Does that make me a person who should be labelled a thug and thief for the rest of my life even though I’ve never been in a fight or stollen anything in about 25 years or more? As I say - if he is proven guilty then he should and could be labelled whatever, but I think people should treat him with an open mind and clean slate FROM JB TWITTER: Dec 21, 2015 — He forgets that he set my shirt on fire before I used him as an ashtray. Doesn't condone my reaction. But he was far from a innocent victim.
|
|
|
Post by o2o2bo2ba on Aug 15, 2021 7:57:10 GMT
I thought we weren't premature enough! If we'd have shook hands nicely in season curtailment, been all nice about it and put it down to a good try but an experiment that just wasn't right for us, all parties could have walked away with dignity.....and we had replacement options of the calibre of Nigel Clough amongst others. What transpired was to sack him after the transfer window closed with no credible option at that time apart from PT. From December 2019, the decisions taken to appoint managers have left us broken. 5 years of hard work has been blown away in 18 months and it's going to get worse before better. It's nice to hear encouraging words from manager on HAG, but at some point in near future it will have to be actions that speak louder. Using the same logic, I assume that you thought JB should have been sacked at the end of last season? Not quite. It's not exact parallel. BG was untried, untested, unprofessional (as a player) and totally decimated a winning, thriving team genuinely challenging for promotion to Championship for the first time in a generation and f ed it up. JAB has some previous credibility of not just managing a club, but managing it at a level we were accustomed to. BG 18months has put us back years. It will be years before we gain the heights of GC December 2019, but it's all been said before and we are where we are...
|
|
|
Post by o2o2bo2ba on Aug 15, 2021 8:11:23 GMT
People talk about false highs for GC but if that wasn’t a false high when Garner got sacked then I don’t know what a false high is. We’d been dicked numerous times by the higher end clubs and even been lucky that it wasn’t higher against sides like Ipswich. Our results were mostly against lower end sides and hadn’t looked convincing. We got away with murder with that win against Shrewsbury. We were already well and truly in a relegation battle. We needed to stick with him for a while having given him the summer but ultimately, the decision needed to be made at some point. Sadly, it was about 5 months too late. In Garners last 10 games we lost 3 times - two of which were against Hull and Peterborough who finished 1st and 2nd. We won 4 of those games, so 40% win ratio. It was a VERY strange time to sack him. When you look at a managers performance I would argue that when things are improving you stick with the manager. I would say the same with JB - the improvement has yet to be seen, but assuming it comes soon (I live in hope!) then I would judge him on those results. If I understand your logic right then you would want JB gone now as he has done an awful job judging by results to date. The trouble is we sack him now, then another manager inherits his players and makes the same excuses as JB and we then have to wait another season. So I feel we should have stuck with Garner last season and (court cases allowing) we should stick with JB this season. But BG didn't just get sacked on stats. Like another poster suggested it was context. He let JCH go without credible replacement. We started v Ipswich with no strikers on the pitch! ...and then Ayunga came on at half time when we were already 2-0 down. Southend away the season before when we were ran ragged by their youth team!? There was no match we lost under BG where we deserved something....in essence, when the game was shifting away from us, he scratched his beard and made no change. Until around 65-75 mins. It's not like we were unlucky to lose matches, we were thoroughly outplayed out thought and got nothing. His subs were very often like for like. To compound the pressure and performance. Some of his post match comments were patronising to anyone whom had watched the match. The journey to Ipswich, when you've had months to prepare....he could have travelled any time during the week, but the journey got the blame for our defeat. Strange when they beat us at home, the journey didn't appear to be a problem for Ipswich!? Stats....? You can interpret anything you want from stats.
|
|
|
Post by Topper Gas on Aug 15, 2021 8:24:24 GMT
That's not strictly the last 5 away games before his dismissal were 3 wins and 2 draws with basket case Swindon the following away game, which PT managed to somehow lose.
I can't see losing the last 8 consecutive league games under JB is an improvement?
If BG had managed to keep up the points per match he'd been achieving he would have kept us up, if JB keeps up his ppm we'll be relegated by December!
|
|