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Post by phillistine on Dec 29, 2021 11:51:40 GMT
We tried buying Ashton Gate at the time, that would have changed so much for us. who do we think we are trying to kid? City are miles ahead of us and have the structure and personnel to stay there. We should accept where we are and if Wael can inject enough cash to keep us going - that is fine by me. I feel for Wael if he tries to compete with City because that is all about pride. We do not need that - just enough guts to keep going. We are in a competition - but not with City! Go Wael, Go You are right in that it is not a competition. Wael has said all along that he wants Rovers to be a sustainable self sufficient football club that does not rely on handouts to survive . Whilst he bankrolls the shortfalls there is no doubt that measures are in place to improve trading performance financially whilst still putting together a decent squad - a big juggling act. it will take a while before Rovers make a profit - barring a transfer windfall somewhere . The City chairman has not made any such claims . One cant help thinking that for him- this is all about on field success and that is how he measures success - the fact that their manager promised European Football in 5 years shows this thinking. The owner must be gutted to find that after all this investment , they are no further forward. They are completely different strategies with the Bristol City model being greater potential rewards but far higher risk with boom or bust potential if their owner loses interest or becomes dissillusioned with football and decides that actually Rugby buys more success at a fraction of the cost. Max Griggs lost interest at Rushden and Diamonds and they are now in the lower reaches of non league football playing on rented pitches.
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Post by Jomo on Dec 29, 2021 12:02:59 GMT
who do we think we are trying to kid? City are miles ahead of us and have the structure and personnel to stay there. We should accept where we are and if Wael can inject enough cash to keep us going - that is fine by me. I feel for Wael if he tries to compete with City because that is all about pride. We do not need that - just enough guts to keep going. We are in a competition - but not with City! Go Wael, Go You are right in that it is not a competition. Wael has said all along that he wants Rovers to be a sustainable self sufficient football club that does not rely on handouts to survive . Whilst he bankrolls the shortfalls there is no doubt that measures are in place to improve trading performance financially whilst still putting together a decent squad - a big juggling act. it will take a while before Rovers make a profit - barring a transfer windfall somewhere . The City chairman has not made any such claims . One cant help thinking that for him- this is all about on field success and that is how he measures success - the fact that their manager promised European Football in 5 years shows this thinking. The owner must be gutted to find that after all this investment , they are no further forward. They are completely different strategies with the Bristol City model being greater potential rewards but far higher risk with boom or bust potential if their owner loses interest or becomes dissillusioned with football and decides that actually Rugby buys more success at a fraction of the cost. Max Griggs lost interest at Rushden and Diamonds and they are now in the lower reaches of non league football playing on rented pitches. Fair points, but also consider the amount of academy players they seem to be producing for their first team. Sadly at Championship level, if any of them excel, City will probably be able to command fees of £15-20M on each of them. They sold Bryan, Reid and Webster for ridiculous amounts not too long ago, and inevitably some others will go for similar amounts in the next couple of seasons, which will keep them going, and in a sustainable way. We need to strive to do similar, but unfortunately our academy will not be anywhere near as well equipped to attract the best youngsters in the region, and even if it was, they'd be poached by age 16 by the elite academies to go with their hoard talent portfolio.
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Post by baggins on Dec 29, 2021 12:18:53 GMT
You are right in that it is not a competition. Wael has said all along that he wants Rovers to be a sustainable self sufficient football club that does not rely on handouts to survive . Whilst he bankrolls the shortfalls there is no doubt that measures are in place to improve trading performance financially whilst still putting together a decent squad - a big juggling act. it will take a while before Rovers make a profit - barring a transfer windfall somewhere . The City chairman has not made any such claims . One cant help thinking that for him- this is all about on field success and that is how he measures success - the fact that their manager promised European Football in 5 years shows this thinking. The owner must be gutted to find that after all this investment , they are no further forward. They are completely different strategies with the Bristol City model being greater potential rewards but far higher risk with boom or bust potential if their owner loses interest or becomes dissillusioned with football and decides that actually Rugby buys more success at a fraction of the cost. Max Griggs lost interest at Rushden and Diamonds and they are now in the lower reaches of non league football playing on rented pitches. Fair points, but also consider the amount of academy players they seem to be producing for their first team. Sadly at Championship level, if any of them excel, City will probably be able to command fees of £15-20M on each of them. They sold Bryan, Reid and Webster for ridiculous amounts not too long ago, and inevitably some others will go for similar amounts in the next couple of seasons, which will keep them going, and in a sustainable way. We need to strive to do similar, but unfortunately our academy will not be anywhere near as well equipped to attract the best youngsters in the region, and even if it was, they'd be poached by age 16 by the elite academies to go with their hoard talent portfolio. Selling on for £20 mil still hasn't done them any good. Everything is there for them, great Stadium, what is he, 6th richest owner in the entire league, a decent fan base, on paper they should be well settled in the Prem by now. But they're not, and that's constant amusement, for me anyway.
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Post by The Equaliser on Dec 29, 2021 14:40:04 GMT
I think the American NFL have a very good set up, all teams have a salary cap, the draft system rotating the success of clubs and the share of the pie well organised. I do believe all NFL teams make a profit.
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Post by warehamgas on Dec 29, 2021 14:54:34 GMT
I hate them as much as the next man, but doesn't this prove just how ridiculous and unsustainable football is. They have fantastic facilities, they get good TV revenue and they have an extremely wealthy owner yet they are hemorrhaging an unbelievable amount of money. Something is serious wrong with football. Not really, I can’t say I’m an expert on the rewards of getting to the prem, but I would guess it’s immediate prosperity if you get up the leagues into the top flight. Owners are therefore investing capital in the hope that they will be successful. It’s no different to venture capital. Plenty of people sink hundreds of thousands into businesses and they fail. The idea is, you invest a ton and later you get a pay off. A large majority of small to medium sized technology companies don’t make any money. They lose tons, and they are aiming to get to scale where the rewards are enormous. Look at Zoom. Lost a ton of money yet now, their product is an adjective in the English language and the name alone must be worth at least £20M probably multiples of that. Not picking a fight Hugo but just saying that a lot of businesses run at a loss in the hope of “doing a Leicester” and has the added benefit of bringing enjoyment to the owner. Another example of this is why people, despite all the numbers being against it, always want to plough all their money into their houses and buy to lets and avoid things like pensions and investment funds even though they are more tax efficient, less risky and (usually) provide better returns. Aside from the obvious issue that most people understand how a house works but not how a fund works, the other thing is that although ploughing money into a property or BTL often has a poor ROCE and is taxed heavily, the fringe benefit is the owner gets to live in a brilliant house. Same with a football club. An owner sat on £500M who wants to invest £100m speculatively would rather a football club where he gets the enjoyemnrt of the games, the adoration, hanging out with the players and the attractive women who orbit all things football…..rather this than a complicated tech start up infested with men with glasses and zero social skills in a drab office…. So the tendency is for rich men to keep investing…only becomes unsustainable when the rich men dry up, which isn’t happening until football becomes unpopular with rich men. I use the term “men” as it’s nearly all rich men doing it with very few women, just to clarify for any wokettes ready to screech me down. Yes, pretty much it.👍 It seems when it comes to football a lot of business sense goes out of the window. Being down here and a ST holder at AFCB means I’ve seen them go from not having a p** to p*** in to being in the PL. Their season in the Championship when they were champions, they overspent by loads and broke the fair play rules and were fined £4.75m. But they gambled on getting to the PL and making it big. They effectively won the Golden Lottery Ticket on a gamble. And although getting relegated after 5 years, they do appear to have consolidated at a much higher level in the Championship and have a chance to return to the PL. It makes no financial sense to struggle to get average crowds of 11,000 yet be in the PL. But the Sky TV money distorts everything. The Championship is a complete fruit cake case of a league. Teams with PL money who’ve been relegated with a financial advantage, teams gambling and losing and getting points deductions, teams like City who are making enormous losses and one or two teams who may be going about their work sensibly but who will still likely get relegated. It gives yo-yo teams at both end of the table. Welcome to football in England!! And as you’ve explained goa, those with money to invest or to throw away or take a calculated gamble or anything else will still do it. UTG!
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Post by yattongas on Dec 29, 2021 15:13:37 GMT
Not really, I can’t say I’m an expert on the rewards of getting to the prem, but I would guess it’s immediate prosperity if you get up the leagues into the top flight. Owners are therefore investing capital in the hope that they will be successful. It’s no different to venture capital. Plenty of people sink hundreds of thousands into businesses and they fail. The idea is, you invest a ton and later you get a pay off. A large majority of small to medium sized technology companies don’t make any money. They lose tons, and they are aiming to get to scale where the rewards are enormous. Look at Zoom. Lost a ton of money yet now, their product is an adjective in the English language and the name alone must be worth at least £20M probably multiples of that. Not picking a fight Hugo but just saying that a lot of businesses run at a loss in the hope of “doing a Leicester” and has the added benefit of bringing enjoyment to the owner. Another example of this is why people, despite all the numbers being against it, always want to plough all their money into their houses and buy to lets and avoid things like pensions and investment funds even though they are more tax efficient, less risky and (usually) provide better returns. Aside from the obvious issue that most people understand how a house works but not how a fund works, the other thing is that although ploughing money into a property or BTL often has a poor ROCE and is taxed heavily, the fringe benefit is the owner gets to live in a brilliant house. Same with a football club. An owner sat on £500M who wants to invest £100m speculatively would rather a football club where he gets the enjoyemnrt of the games, the adoration, hanging out with the players and the attractive women who orbit all things football…..rather this than a complicated tech start up infested with men with glasses and zero social skills in a drab office…. So the tendency is for rich men to keep investing…only becomes unsustainable when the rich men dry up, which isn’t happening until football becomes unpopular with rich men. I use the term “men” as it’s nearly all rich men doing it with very few women, just to clarify for any wokettes ready to screech me down. No, I understand the point you are making, but I still find it bizarre. I mean, realistically there are only 23 places up for grabs. 20 in the prem and 3 yo yo teams at best? You can probably narrow that down further to 8 places and 3 yo-yo teams. It's a massive investment risk and an awful lot of money for such a finite number of places up for grabs. Coupled with the sheer cost of just treading water. I genuinely cannot get my head around it! I think you are spot on, Football is a rich man's vanity project and little more. I was listening to the price of football podcast the other day and they had the new Wycombe owner on there. He’s a 70 yr old American who said that English football doesn’t yet realise it’s global pull and how much it’s loved worldwide . He predicted ( if I remember correctly) a 3 fold increase in revenues in the next 10-20yrs and that included the div one and two . It’s worth a listen and quite interesting……at least I thought it was !
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Post by yattongas on Dec 29, 2021 15:15:32 GMT
I think the American NFL have a very good set up, all teams have a salary cap, the draft system rotating the success of clubs and the share of the pie well organised. I do believe all NFL teams make a profit. Urmmmm but no relegation so owners can invest knowing they can’t go tits up after relegation. No thanks
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Post by The Equaliser on Dec 29, 2021 16:04:21 GMT
I think the American NFL have a very good set up, all teams have a salary cap, the draft system rotating the success of clubs and the share of the pie well organised. I do believe all NFL teams make a profit. Urmmmm but no relegation so owners can invest knowing they can’t go tits up after relegation. No thanks Well actually it’s not quite as simple as you make out, but never mind let’s just stick with the system we have then where the super rich buy little English clubs and play against a few other billionaires in their own little games, of course little clubs like us and Bury and others just get tossed aside now and again, but some other little dreamers will take our place catching the falling crumbs from the captains table 😂
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Post by bobbyjones on Dec 29, 2021 16:20:13 GMT
Urmmmm but no relegation so owners can invest knowing they can’t go tits up after relegation. No thanks Well actually it’s not quite as simple as you make out, but never mind let’s just stick with the system we have then where the super rich buy little English clubs and play against a few other billionaires in their own little games, of course little clubs like us and Bury and others just get tossed aside now and again, but some other little dreamers will take our place catching the falling crumbs from the captains table 😂 Happy New Year Topper
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Post by yattongas on Dec 29, 2021 16:22:37 GMT
Urmmmm but no relegation so owners can invest knowing they can’t go tits up after relegation. No thanks Well actually it’s not quite as simple as you make out, but never mind let’s just stick with the system we have then where the super rich buy little English clubs and play against a few other billionaires in their own little games, of course little clubs like us and Bury and others just get tossed aside now and again, but some other little dreamers will take our place catching the falling crumbs from the captains table 😂 So the super rich don’t buy American clubs ? 😮🙄 im not saying our system doesn’t need looking at and revamping but sod following the closed shop American model . That really would be the death knell for lower league clubs .
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Post by The Equaliser on Dec 29, 2021 16:36:45 GMT
Well actually it’s not quite as simple as you make out, but never mind let’s just stick with the system we have then where the super rich buy little English clubs and play against a few other billionaires in their own little games, of course little clubs like us and Bury and others just get tossed aside now and again, but some other little dreamers will take our place catching the falling crumbs from the captains table 😂 So the super rich don’t buy American clubs ? 😮🙄 im not saying our system doesn’t need looking at and revamping but sod following the closed shop American model . That really would be the death knell for lower league clubs . I understand your point but our system is just so unfair as a competition imo, it may not be a closed shop but it may as well be! By the way the team that has won the most NFL championships is the publicly owned Green Bay Packers. 👍
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Post by smudge1 on Dec 29, 2021 16:48:00 GMT
I thought this was a Bristol Rovers forum? Don't want to hear about this other lot lol
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Post by The Equaliser on Dec 29, 2021 16:56:53 GMT
Well actually it’s not quite as simple as you make out, but never mind let’s just stick with the system we have then where the super rich buy little English clubs and play against a few other billionaires in their own little games, of course little clubs like us and Bury and others just get tossed aside now and again, but some other little dreamers will take our place catching the falling crumbs from the captains table 😂 Happy New Year Topper Strange comment, but I agree - Happy New Year Topper 👍
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Post by yattongas on Dec 29, 2021 17:04:21 GMT
So the super rich don’t buy American clubs ? 😮🙄 im not saying our system doesn’t need looking at and revamping but sod following the closed shop American model . That really would be the death knell for lower league clubs . I understand your point but our system is just so unfair as a competition imo, it may not be a closed shop but it may as well be! By the way the team that has won the most NFL championships is the publicly owned Green Bay Packers. 👍 Really ? That’s not interesting…… can’t stand the sport 🤣
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Post by The Equaliser on Dec 29, 2021 17:28:04 GMT
I understand your point but our system is just so unfair as a competition imo, it may not be a closed shop but it may as well be! By the way the team that has won the most NFL championships is the publicly owned Green Bay Packers. 👍 Really ? That’s not interesting…… can’t stand the sport 🤣 I kinda asked for that, anyway good debate, thank you for keeping it polite Yatton 👍
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Post by stapletongas on Dec 29, 2021 18:45:51 GMT
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Post by Charlton Hayes Gas on Dec 29, 2021 18:57:26 GMT
Was the criteria based on atmosphere or how many tents you have as stands? Otherwise there is no way on earth the mem can be considered better than Ashton Gate.
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Post by Tilly's Thighs on Dec 29, 2021 20:36:23 GMT
Was the criteria based on atmosphere or how many tents you have as stands? Otherwise there is no way on earth the mem can be considered better than Ashton Gate. I love the fact that Twerton Park is ranked one place above them as well.
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Post by pucklegas on Dec 30, 2021 10:12:42 GMT
Some of their fans think if their accounts show a deficit of more than 1.5 million next year they will be outside the allowable figures sparking a points deduction, I dont know if that is true but both clubs are in for decidedly frugal times.
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Post by rememberhalifax on Dec 30, 2021 10:24:38 GMT
Was the criteria based on atmosphere or how many tents you have as stands? Otherwise there is no way on earth the mem can be considered better than Ashton Gate. Think there are many factors that measure the enjoyment of visiting a particular stadium not least the passion of the fans, location, originality, and so on. It's interesting to note that the top 3 score heavily on the afore mentioned passion of fans and that they are grounds of the more traditional type. Just because something is new and shiny does not qualify it as a 'special' place , The 'new' Wembley is ,imho. a soulless concrete heap among other like minded heaps whereas The Millennium Stadium in Cardiff is a much more enjoyable experience , so yes Ashton is nice, i have watched rugby there, but it is not unique in any way and mirrors countless other modern stadiums, an accusation you can't level at The Mem!
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