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Post by oldie on Sept 16, 2022 8:31:00 GMT
The camera doesn't lie and it's not just about Elizabeth. It's about the Monarchy in general and the broader family that occupied / occupy positions within the Monarchy. Her mother for example. Christ how old is she in that photo,a child ,come on totally irrelevant.so on that logic everything you did as a child is indicative of your beliefs as an adult? Yes. My parents were/are abject racists. That very fact influenced how I interacted with them at the time (upto 18) and how and why I rebuked them later in life. The point is that families that harbour such beliefs do impact their children. To the best of my knowledge Elizabeth has never come out and disowned of rebuked any of her family for holding those beliefs or opinions, as an adult. Similarly she went to Kenya as heir to the throne whilst our armed forces were killing 1000s of Kenyans for opposing our enforced rule of that country. In fact she celebrated it. (Empire) |
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Post by yattongas on Sept 16, 2022 8:32:54 GMT
Christ how old is she in that photo,a child ,come on totally irrelevant.so on that logic everything you did as a child is indicative of your beliefs as an adult? I must admit that when I was a young kid I pulled off the legs of a spider. Should I forever be branded as someone who is cruel to animals? I’ve read that kids who were cruel to animals and spiders grow up to be serial killers . 😯 |
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Post by oldie on Sept 16, 2022 8:32:58 GMT
The camera doesn't lie and it's not just about Elizabeth. It's about the Monarchy in general and the broader family that occupied / occupy positions within the Monarchy. Her mother for example. My older brothers are racist and homophobic, I'm not. Sorry to hear that. I would imagine you may have rebuked them? |
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Post by oldie on Sept 16, 2022 8:34:01 GMT
The difficulty is though, for me, trust in the 'establishment' has eroded almost completely over the years. Savile, and others, were basically enabled by high ranking members of government and royalty as his behaviour was widely rumoured for years before his death. The BBC and Starmer have taken most of the flak but he had close allies elsewhere too. Andrew would be facing criminal charges and deeper investigation without a huge out of court settlement, but it feels almost against the law to mention that right now when mourning and grief may as well be mandatory. The treatment of Diana, and now Meghan, leaves me feeling uncomfortable too, particularly with some veiled sexism/racism tones from the media. I bear no malice towards the queen, she seemed quite nice, but the 'establishment' have proved, to me, untrustworthy and quite capable of hiding further skeletons. Yes Indeed |
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Post by oldie on Sept 16, 2022 8:34:37 GMT
Christ how old is she in that photo,a child ,come on totally irrelevant.so on that logic everything you did as a child is indicative of your beliefs as an adult? I must admit that when I was a young kid I pulled off the legs of a spider. Should I forever be branded as someone who is cruel to animals? Don't be childish Gassy. |
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Post by rememberhalifax on Sept 16, 2022 8:38:12 GMT
Folk will interpret the photo to suit their agenda. There was a time i would think when the Nazi party was viewed as a force for good in a country which was on its knees, when the true nature of the movement was gradually uncovered there was a time when it became fashionable to bestow ridicule on the party by mocking their salute, marching and other traits, this 'mocking 'was evident in all walks of life, kids on the street, armed forces, entertainment and media, even in so called high society, could even be deemed as the forerunner to 'Basil Fawlty 'sketches and Monty Python, but as i say folk will interpret it to fit an agenda. At this point i would like to apologise to 'BIG JOCK' who no doubt started this thread meaning a heartfelt tribute to whom the vast majority of Brits thought was a wonderful lady, but like many threads on here it morphs into something completely different, sorry Jock, keep up the good work, this forum would not be the same without your wise counsel!
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Post by popuppirate on Sept 16, 2022 8:45:47 GMT
Folk will interpret the photo to suit their agenda. There was a time i would think when the Nazi party was viewed as a force for good in a country which was on its knees, when the true nature of the movement was gradually uncovered there was a time when it became fashionable to bestow ridicule on the party by mocking their salute, marching and other traits, this 'mocking 'was evident in all walks of life, kids on the street, armed forces, entertainment and media, even in so called high society, could even be deemed as the forerunner to 'Basil Fawlty 'sketches and Monty Python, but as i say folk will interpret it to fit an agenda. At this point i would like to apologise to 'BIG JOCK' who no doubt started this thread meaning a heartfelt tribute to whom the vast majority of Brits thought was a wonderful lady, but like many threads on here it morphs into something completely different, sorry Jock, keep up the good work, this forum would not be the same without your wise counsel! Surely it's healthy to raise issues, not to just blindly accept ? It's a bit like a cult if you can't question something with that amount of power and influence. It's not always about an agenda, I do not have one and have no suggestions for what might replace royalty. Blind faith can be dangerous and prevents accountability |
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Post by stuart1974 on Sept 16, 2022 8:51:26 GMT
Christ how old is she in that photo,a child ,come on totally irrelevant.so on that logic everything you did as a child is indicative of your beliefs as an adult? Yes. My parents were/are abject racists. That very fact influenced how I interacted with them at the time (upto 18) and how and why I rebuked them later in life. The point is that families that harbour such beliefs do impact their children. To the best of my knowledge Elizabeth has never come out and disowned of rebuked any of her family for holding those beliefs or opinions, as an adult. Similarly she went to Kenya as heir to the throne whilst our armed forces were killing 1000s of Kenyans for opposing our enforced rule of that country. In fact she celebrated it. (Empire) If you are referring to the Mau Mau Rebellion then that was largely after her visit. Even Kenyatta described it more of a civil war than a rebellion against colonial rule and the Kikuyus were split between pro and anti British people. Not defending what happened but it was a lot more complicated than that. |
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Post by trevorgas on Sept 16, 2022 8:52:01 GMT
Christ how old is she in that photo,a child ,come on totally irrelevant.so on that logic everything you did as a child is indicative of your beliefs as an adult? Yes. My parents were/are abject racists. That very fact influenced how I interacted with them at the time (upto 18) and how and why I rebuked them later in life. The point is that families that harbour such beliefs do impact their children. To the best of my knowledge Elizabeth has never come out and disowned of rebuked any of her family for holding those beliefs or opinions, as an adult. Similarly she went to Kenya as heir to the throne whilst our armed forces were killing 1000s of Kenyans for opposing our enforced rule of that country. In fact she celebrated it. (Empire) We don't know either way as we all know that her private conversations have remained just that ,Les I respect your views, for some reason you appear to have lost objectivity on this subject. Have you been or worked in the US,does that mean you are or were supportive of the racist legislation enacted etc,I don't think so. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Sept 16, 2022 9:01:56 GMT
My older brothers are racist and homophobic, I'm not. Sorry to hear that. I would imagine you may have rebuked them? Yes, but it was done within the house. Does that make a difference? |
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Post by oldie on Sept 16, 2022 9:11:06 GMT
Yes. My parents were/are abject racists. That very fact influenced how I interacted with them at the time (upto 18) and how and why I rebuked them later in life. The point is that families that harbour such beliefs do impact their children. To the best of my knowledge Elizabeth has never come out and disowned of rebuked any of her family for holding those beliefs or opinions, as an adult. Similarly she went to Kenya as heir to the throne whilst our armed forces were killing 1000s of Kenyans for opposing our enforced rule of that country. In fact she celebrated it. (Empire) If you are referring to the Mau Mau Rebellion then that was largely after her visit. Even Kenyatta described it more of a civil war than a rebellion against colonial rule and the Kikuyus were split between pro and anti British people. Not defending what happened but it was a lot more complicated than that. It wouldn't have been complicated at all for us if we had not been there. And us being there was what she was celebrating. |
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Post by trevorgas on Sept 16, 2022 9:15:21 GMT
Sorry to hear that. I would imagine you may have rebuked them? Yes, but it was done within the house. Does that make a difference? No, conversations in ALL families are in my view private and not for public consumption. |
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Post by oldie on Sept 16, 2022 9:15:45 GMT
Sorry to hear that. I would imagine you may have rebuked them? Yes, but it was done within the house. Does that make a difference? That's upto you Stuart and none of my business. Driving to work this morning I was thinking of other acts of racism within my own family. I reminded myself of my paternal grandmother who asked, after I had told my family of my intention to marry the lady who was to become my wife and mother of our children, "Why can't he marry a nice English girl?" Her invitation was withdrawn of course. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Sept 16, 2022 9:17:19 GMT
If you are referring to the Mau Mau Rebellion then that was largely after her visit. Even Kenyatta described it more of a civil war than a rebellion against colonial rule and the Kikuyus were split between pro and anti British people. Not defending what happened but it was a lot more complicated than that. It wouldn't have been complicated at all for us if we had not been there. And us being there was what she was celebrating. It would still have been complicated, we could just absolve ourselves of any blame. |
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Post by oldie on Sept 16, 2022 9:19:59 GMT
Yes, but it was done within the house. Does that make a difference? No, conversations in ALL families are in my view private and not for public consumption. Absolutely Unless members are in a position of power and influence and take money from the State. As such, when they commit acts of treason such as showing support for a foreign fascist state where subsequently 100s of 1000s of your fellow citizens die defending the country your family is Head of State of, they should be publicly "outed". |
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Post by oldie on Sept 16, 2022 9:20:44 GMT
It wouldn't have been complicated at all for us if we had not been there. And us being there was what she was celebrating. It would still have been complicated, we could just absolve ourselves of any blame. How could we be blamed if we were never there, ever? |
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Post by oldie on Sept 16, 2022 9:27:27 GMT
Yes. My parents were/are abject racists. That very fact influenced how I interacted with them at the time (upto 18) and how and why I rebuked them later in life. The point is that families that harbour such beliefs do impact their children. To the best of my knowledge Elizabeth has never come out and disowned of rebuked any of her family for holding those beliefs or opinions, as an adult. Similarly she went to Kenya as heir to the throne whilst our armed forces were killing 1000s of Kenyans for opposing our enforced rule of that country. In fact she celebrated it. (Empire) We don't know either way as we all know that her private conversations have remained just that ,Les I respect your views, for some reason you appear to have lost objectivity on this subject. Have you been or worked in the US,does that mean you are or were supportive of the racist legislation enacted etc,I don't think so. As Head of State she had a responsibility for the actions of her family. In the same way that she rightly stripped her her disgusting son of titles over his involvement in trafficking under 18 young women through his association with Epstein. A very public act. 100s of 1000s of UK nationals were killed defending our country, including one member of my family. The actions of her family in that regard were a bigger offence than the actions of her disgusting son. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Sept 16, 2022 9:30:15 GMT
We don't know either way as we all know that her private conversations have remained just that ,Les I respect your views, for some reason you appear to have lost objectivity on this subject. Have you been or worked in the US,does that mean you are or were supportive of the racist legislation enacted etc,I don't think so. As Head of State she had a responsibility for the actions of her family. In the same way that she rightly stripped her her disgusting son of titles over his involvement in trafficking under 18 young women through his association with Epstein. A very public act. 100s of 1000s of UK nationals were killed defending our country, including one member of my family. The actions of her family in that regard were a bigger offence than the actions of her disgusting son. Who in her family actively supported the Nazis and who in her family actively fought against them (both in combat or in other roles)? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Sept 16, 2022 9:33:07 GMT
It would still have been complicated, we could just absolve ourselves of any blame. How could we be blamed if we were never there, ever? That's my point, our conscience would be clear but bad things still happen, just differently. We can't undo the world we inherit, only try to improve it. |
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Post by oldie on Sept 16, 2022 9:40:20 GMT
Yes. My parents were/are abject racists. That very fact influenced how I interacted with them at the time (upto 18) and how and why I rebuked them later in life. The point is that families that harbour such beliefs do impact their children. To the best of my knowledge Elizabeth has never come out and disowned of rebuked any of her family for holding those beliefs or opinions, as an adult. Similarly she went to Kenya as heir to the throne whilst our armed forces were killing 1000s of Kenyans for opposing our enforced rule of that country. In fact she celebrated it. (Empire) We don't know either way as we all know that her private conversations have remained just that ,Les I respect your views, for some reason you appear to have lost objectivity on this subject. Have you been or worked in the US,does that mean you are or were supportive of the racist legislation enacted etc,I don't think so. Yes, I lived in the States for 14 years in the South. Of course I wasn't supportive of racist legislation but by the time I moved there (1982) a lot of it had been undone. But attitudes were still entrenched. I could only influence my small world. For example I had a largely afro American employee base, so I could do one thing to dramatically improve their condition by introducing comprehensive health care insurance. They had never had it, ever. 1984, had never had it. We talked about racism in the home as my two sons were growing up with it all around them. I took them, in 1986, to Selma, Alabama. We walked across the bridge which had been blocked when MLK and protesters tried to march over it all those years before. There was a tiny museum on the town side of the bridge with great photography of that day, we dwelled and took it in, discussed it. They were 11 and 6. I think, hope, that day has stayed with them. You can only do what you can do. Our Head of State did nothing. |
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