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Post by oldie on Jul 20, 2023 15:03:07 GMT
Hmm, "exaggerated masculine traits"..so it means being a bit of a dick then. For example, I always have been and always will be completely self sufficient in every way. Its part of my make up but also driven to be even more that way by a female that was once in my life who let me down badly. I also do lack emotion in certain areas, not all, but some. I'm married, I'm a father, I love my family and I know that they benefit greatly from those traits as my wife is a bit of a worrier by nature so it evens the keel me being almost the polar opposite. When my son was severely poorly, being not the overly emotional type helped to keep a clear head with consultants and drs and understand the gravity of the situation and ask the right questions. Being self sufficient has enabled me to be fairly decent in business, both employed and self employed. Does this mean I portray toxic masculinity or is it just part of me which makes me an incredibly driven individual who is able to ascertain to use the correct amounts of each emotion to the correct degree? Or does being like me influence my views a certain way? Again who decides? We all have a personal story. To be honest 1981 you do sound unsure of yourself. I do not think anyone is judging anyone, with the exception of Barton. Only then because he CHOOSES to make public utterances based upon his profile in sport. Given the sample definition I posted up, do you see any of those traits in Barton? That's the question, not how you have chosen to (or do) lead your personal life. |
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Post by yattongas on Jul 20, 2023 15:08:10 GMT
Hmm, "exaggerated masculine traits"..so it means being a bit of a dick then. For example, I always have been and always will be completely self sufficient in every way. Its part of my make up but also driven to be even more that way by a female that was once in my life who let me down badly. I also do lack emotion in certain areas, not all, but some. I'm married, I'm a father, I love my family and I know that they benefit greatly from those traits as my wife is a bit of a worrier by nature so it evens the keel me being almost the polar opposite. When my son was severely poorly, being not the overly emotional type helped to keep a clear head with consultants and drs and understand the gravity of the situation and ask the right questions. Being self sufficient has enabled me to be fairly decent in business, both employed and self employed. Does this mean I portray toxic masculinity or is it just part of me which makes me an incredibly driven individual who is able to ascertain to use the correct amounts of each emotion to the correct degree? Or does being like me influence my views a certain way? Again who decides? Are you selling tickets on yourself? 🙄😂 |
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Post by axegas on Jul 20, 2023 15:10:46 GMT
I’m so looking forward to when the football begins and we don’t have to concern ourselves with deep questions of gender and morality.
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Barton
Jul 20, 2023 16:40:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by oldie on Jul 20, 2023 16:40:16 GMT
I’m so looking forward to when the football begins and we don’t have to concern ourselves with deep questions of gender and morality. You unsure on both?🤔🫢 |
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Post by Gastafari on Jul 20, 2023 18:25:20 GMT
Hmm, "exaggerated masculine traits"..so it means being a bit of a dick then. For example, I always have been and always will be completely self sufficient in every way. Its part of my make up but also driven to be even more that way by a female that was once in my life who let me down badly. I also do lack emotion in certain areas, not all, but some. I'm married, I'm a father, I love my family and I know that they benefit greatly from those traits as my wife is a bit of a worrier by nature so it evens the keel me being almost the polar opposite. When my son was severely poorly, being not the overly emotional type helped to keep a clear head with consultants and drs and understand the gravity of the situation and ask the right questions. Being self sufficient has enabled me to be fairly decent in business, both employed and self employed. Does this mean I portray toxic masculinity or is it just part of me which makes me an incredibly driven individual who is able to ascertain to use the correct amounts of each emotion to the correct degree? Or does being like me influence my views a certain way? Again who decides? We all have a personal story. To be honest 1981 you do sound unsure of yourself. I do not think anyone is judging anyone, with the exception of Barton. Only then because he CHOOSES to make public utterances based upon his profile in sport. Given the sample definition I posted up, do you see any of those traits in Barton? That's the question, not how you have chosen to (or do) lead your personal life. Strictly talking about sport here. I would say at least 3 out 5 of those are needed to be successful or a winner in any sport Lets just name a some, do you not think Muhammad Ali used strength, or showed lack of emotion and had plenty of dominance to be as good as he was? Roger Federer? Radal Nadal? Novak Djokovic? Jack Nicklaus? Tiger Woods? Usain Bolt? Michael Schumacher? Lewis Hamilton? Sachin Tendulkar? Brian Lara? Ricky Ponting? Shane Warne? Glen Mcgrath? Courtney Walsh? Curtly Ambrose? Jimmy Anderson? Stuart Broad? Maradona? Zidane? Both Ronaldos? Messi? Bob Paisley? Brian Clough? Sir Alex Ferguson? Carlo Ancelotti? Pep Guardiola? Jurgen Klopp? If Muhammad Ali didn't have strength, or an aura of dominance he wouldn't be called 'The Greatest' would he? If a young Rovers acadamy player lacked strength and wasn't dominant in either his performances, application, work rate etc He'd be released straight away. So Joey Barton who made it to the top level of English Football and got capped for his country, will no doubt have those traits too. It doesn't instantly make it Toxic. This is why it gets tiresome and most of it's absolute bullshit. |
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Barton
Jul 20, 2023 18:40:41 GMT
Post by Topper Gas on Jul 20, 2023 18:40:41 GMT
We all have a personal story. To be honest 1981 you do sound unsure of yourself. I do not think anyone is judging anyone, with the exception of Barton. Only then because he CHOOSES to make public utterances based upon his profile in sport. Given the sample definition I posted up, do you see any of those traits in Barton? That's the question, not how you have chosen to (or do) lead your personal life. Strictly talking about sport here. I would say at least 3 out 5 of those are needed to be successful or a winner in any sport Lets just name a some, do you not think Muhammad Ali used strength, or showed lack of emotion and had plenty of dominance to be as good as he was? Roger Federer? Radal Nadal? Novak Djokovic? Jack Nicklaus? Tiger Woods? Usain Bolt? Michael Schumacher? Lewis Hamilton? Sachin Tendulkar? Brian Lara? Ricky Ponting? Shane Warne? Glen Mcgrath? Courtney Walsh? Curtly Ambrose? Jimmy Anderson? Stuart Broad? Maradona? Zidane? Both Ronaldos? Messi? Bob Paisley? Brian Clough? Sir Alex Ferguson? Carlo Ancelotti? Pep Guardiola? Jurgen Klopp? If Muhammad Ali didn't have strength, or an aura of dominance he wouldn't be called 'The Greatest' would he? If a young Rovers acadamy player lacked strength and wasn't dominant in either his performances, application, work rate etc He'd be released straight away. So Joey Barton who made it to the top level of English Football and got capped for his country, will no doubt have those traits too. It doesn't instantly make it Toxic. This is why it gets tiresome and most of it's absolute bullshit. Being dominant in sport is not the same as having a dominant personality, taking JB as an example we've no real idea what goes on in his marriage for all we know it could be Mrs B who makes all the major decisions such as where they take their family holidays and what car(s) they buy. |
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Barton
Jul 20, 2023 18:55:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by aghast on Jul 20, 2023 18:55:42 GMT
We all have a personal story. To be honest 1981 you do sound unsure of yourself. I do not think anyone is judging anyone, with the exception of Barton. Only then because he CHOOSES to make public utterances based upon his profile in sport. Given the sample definition I posted up, do you see any of those traits in Barton? That's the question, not how you have chosen to (or do) lead your personal life. Strictly talking about sport here. I would say at least 3 out 5 of those are needed to be successful or a winner in any sport Lets just name a some, do you not think Muhammad Ali used strength, or showed lack of emotion and had plenty of dominance to be as good as he was? Roger Federer? Radal Nadal? Novak Djokovic? Jack Nicklaus? Tiger Woods? Usain Bolt? Michael Schumacher? Lewis Hamilton? Sachin Tendulkar? Brian Lara? Ricky Ponting? Shane Warne? Glen Mcgrath? Courtney Walsh? Curtly Ambrose? Jimmy Anderson? Stuart Broad? Maradona? Zidane? Both Ronaldos? Messi? Bob Paisley? Brian Clough? Sir Alex Ferguson? Carlo Ancelotti? Pep Guardiola? Jurgen Klopp? If Muhammad Ali didn't have strength, or an aura of dominance he wouldn't be called 'The Greatest' would he? If a young Rovers acadamy player lacked strength and wasn't dominant in either his performances, application, work rate etc He'd be released straight away. So Joey Barton who made it to the top level of English Football and got capped for his country, will no doubt have those traits too. It doesn't instantly make it Toxic. This is why it gets tiresome and most of it's absolute bullshit. Bobby Charlton Lionel Messi Roger Federer Bill Beaumont You can choose the athletes to fit your narrative about being butch and proud and defending anyone who thinks like you.........and I can choose mine.👍 |
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Barton
Jul 20, 2023 18:59:17 GMT
via mobile
Post by Gastafari on Jul 20, 2023 18:59:17 GMT
Strictly talking about sport here. I would say at least 3 out 5 of those are needed to be successful or a winner in any sport Lets just name a some, do you not think Muhammad Ali used strength, or showed lack of emotion and had plenty of dominance to be as good as he was? Roger Federer? Radal Nadal? Novak Djokovic? Jack Nicklaus? Tiger Woods? Usain Bolt? Michael Schumacher? Lewis Hamilton? Sachin Tendulkar? Brian Lara? Ricky Ponting? Shane Warne? Glen Mcgrath? Courtney Walsh? Curtly Ambrose? Jimmy Anderson? Stuart Broad? Maradona? Zidane? Both Ronaldos? Messi? Bob Paisley? Brian Clough? Sir Alex Ferguson? Carlo Ancelotti? Pep Guardiola? Jurgen Klopp? If Muhammad Ali didn't have strength, or an aura of dominance he wouldn't be called 'The Greatest' would he? If a young Rovers acadamy player lacked strength and wasn't dominant in either his performances, application, work rate etc He'd be released straight away. So Joey Barton who made it to the top level of English Football and got capped for his country, will no doubt have those traits too. It doesn't instantly make it Toxic. This is why it gets tiresome and most of it's absolute bullshit. Being dominant in sport is not the same as having a dominant personality, taking JB as an example we've no real idea what goes on in his marriage for all we know it could be Mrs B who makes all the major decisions such as where they take their family holidays and what car(s) they buy. Of course it does Topper. That doesn't make any sense. To be dominant,successful or a winner n any sport you need to be goal-oriented, you need to take risks, you need to be good under stress or pressure, highly competitive, ambitious and entrepreneurial as well as most professional sportsman whether you're Lewis Hamilton a multi millionaire or Lewis Gordon who (just an estimation) may be on 70k a year, so although complete opposite ends of the spectrum are still very well paid compared to the average person. All those things are the main components of having a Dominant Personality which all professional Sportsman will probably have, let alone the very Elite ones. |
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Barton
Jul 20, 2023 19:05:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by Gastafari on Jul 20, 2023 19:05:08 GMT
Strictly talking about sport here. I would say at least 3 out 5 of those are needed to be successful or a winner in any sport Lets just name a some, do you not think Muhammad Ali used strength, or showed lack of emotion and had plenty of dominance to be as good as he was? Roger Federer? Radal Nadal? Novak Djokovic? Jack Nicklaus? Tiger Woods? Usain Bolt? Michael Schumacher? Lewis Hamilton? Sachin Tendulkar? Brian Lara? Ricky Ponting? Shane Warne? Glen Mcgrath? Courtney Walsh? Curtly Ambrose? Jimmy Anderson? Stuart Broad? Maradona? Zidane? Both Ronaldos? Messi? Bob Paisley? Brian Clough? Sir Alex Ferguson? Carlo Ancelotti? Pep Guardiola? Jurgen Klopp? If Muhammad Ali didn't have strength, or an aura of dominance he wouldn't be called 'The Greatest' would he? If a young Rovers acadamy player lacked strength and wasn't dominant in either his performances, application, work rate etc He'd be released straight away. So Joey Barton who made it to the top level of English Football and got capped for his country, will no doubt have those traits too. It doesn't instantly make it Toxic. This is why it gets tiresome and most of it's absolute bullshit. Bobby Charlton Lionel Messi Roger Federer Bill Beaumont You can choose the athletes to fit your narrative about being butch and proud and defending anyone who thinks like you.........and I can choose mine.👍 I've mentioned Lionel Messi and Roger Federer I haven't mentioned anything about being butch 🤣 Lionel Messi has extreme strength. He has it in abundance. Christ. To be as good as he is, he would of needed incredible dominance in his personality. Roger Federer? Probably the fittest and strongest Tennis player there has ever been. You don't think he needed to show strength and dominance to be as good as he was? Especially in the era he played in. What the hell are you talking about? |
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 20, 2023 19:06:56 GMT
We all have a personal story. To be honest 1981 you do sound unsure of yourself. I do not think anyone is judging anyone, with the exception of Barton. Only then because he CHOOSES to make public utterances based upon his profile in sport. Given the sample definition I posted up, do you see any of those traits in Barton? That's the question, not how you have chosen to (or do) lead your personal life. Strictly talking about sport here. I would say at least 3 out 5 of those are needed to be successful or a winner in any sport Lets just name a some, do you not think Muhammad Ali used strength, or showed lack of emotion and had plenty of dominance to be as good as he was? Roger Federer? Radal Nadal? Novak Djokovic? Jack Nicklaus? Tiger Woods? Usain Bolt? Michael Schumacher? Lewis Hamilton? Sachin Tendulkar? Brian Lara? Ricky Ponting? Shane Warne? Glen Mcgrath? Courtney Walsh? Curtly Ambrose? Jimmy Anderson? Stuart Broad? Maradona? Zidane? Both Ronaldos? Messi? Bob Paisley? Brian Clough? Sir Alex Ferguson? Carlo Ancelotti? Pep Guardiola? Jurgen Klopp? If Muhammad Ali didn't have strength, or an aura of dominance he wouldn't be called 'The Greatest' would he? If a young Rovers acadamy player lacked strength and wasn't dominant in either his performances, application, work rate etc He'd be released straight away. So Joey Barton who made it to the top level of English Football and got capped for his country, will no doubt have those traits too. It doesn't instantly make it Toxic. This is why it gets tiresome and most of it's absolute bullshit. Yes, well put, nothing wrong with the masculine traits from before and the characters you’ve drawn out acted out those traits in spades. In themselves those traits aren’t toxic. It’s just individuals that put the ‘toxic’ into toxic masculinity. And Andrew Tate is one of those. I’d also say he’s a complete di**into the bargain. UTG! |
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Barton
Jul 20, 2023 19:34:25 GMT
via mobile
Post by oldie on Jul 20, 2023 19:34:25 GMT
We all have a personal story. To be honest 1981 you do sound unsure of yourself. I do not think anyone is judging anyone, with the exception of Barton. Only then because he CHOOSES to make public utterances based upon his profile in sport. Given the sample definition I posted up, do you see any of those traits in Barton? That's the question, not how you have chosen to (or do) lead your personal life. Strictly talking about sport here. I would say at least 3 out 5 of those are needed to be successful or a winner in any sport Lets just name a some, do you not think Muhammad Ali used strength, or showed lack of emotion and had plenty of dominance to be as good as he was? Roger Federer? Radal Nadal? Novak Djokovic? Jack Nicklaus? Tiger Woods? Usain Bolt? Michael Schumacher? Lewis Hamilton? Sachin Tendulkar? Brian Lara? Ricky Ponting? Shane Warne? Glen Mcgrath? Courtney Walsh? Curtly Ambrose? Jimmy Anderson? Stuart Broad? Maradona? Zidane? Both Ronaldos? Messi? Bob Paisley? Brian Clough? Sir Alex Ferguson? Carlo Ancelotti? Pep Guardiola? Jurgen Klopp? If Muhammad Ali didn't have strength, or an aura of dominance he wouldn't be called 'The Greatest' would he? If a young Rovers acadamy player lacked strength and wasn't dominant in either his performances, application, work rate etc He'd be released straight away. So Joey Barton who made it to the top level of English Football and got capped for his country, will no doubt have those traits too. It doesn't instantly make it Toxic. This is why it gets tiresome and most of it's absolute bullshit. Which of these are you choosing your three from? "the constellation of socially regressive [masculine] traits that serve to foster domination, the devaluation of women, homophobia, and wanton violence.” You appear to miss the point completely |
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Post by Topper Gas on Jul 20, 2023 19:55:43 GMT
Being dominant in sport is not the same as having a dominant personality, taking JB as an example we've no real idea what goes on in his marriage for all we know it could be Mrs B who makes all the major decisions such as where they take their family holidays and what car(s) they buy. Of course it does Topper. That doesn't make any sense. To be dominant,successful or a winner n any sport you need to be goal-oriented, you need to take risks, you need to be good under stress or pressure, highly competitive, ambitious and entrepreneurial as well as most professional sportsman whether you're Lewis Hamilton a multi millionaire or Lewis Gordon who (just an estimation) may be on 70k a year, so although complete opposite ends of the spectrum are still very well paid compared to the average person. All those things are the main components of having a Dominant Personality which all professional Sportsman will probably have, let alone the very Elite ones. I thought we were talking about dominant behaviours in relationships not just solely sporting achievements? Looking at footballers who reach the top do they dominate every relationship or do they have an equal footing with team mates and listen to what the coaches and managers have to tell them? |
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Barton
Jul 20, 2023 20:35:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by Gastafari on Jul 20, 2023 20:35:35 GMT
Strictly talking about sport here. I would say at least 3 out 5 of those are needed to be successful or a winner in any sport Lets just name a some, do you not think Muhammad Ali used strength, or showed lack of emotion and had plenty of dominance to be as good as he was? Roger Federer? Radal Nadal? Novak Djokovic? Jack Nicklaus? Tiger Woods? Usain Bolt? Michael Schumacher? Lewis Hamilton? Sachin Tendulkar? Brian Lara? Ricky Ponting? Shane Warne? Glen Mcgrath? Courtney Walsh? Curtly Ambrose? Jimmy Anderson? Stuart Broad? Maradona? Zidane? Both Ronaldos? Messi? Bob Paisley? Brian Clough? Sir Alex Ferguson? Carlo Ancelotti? Pep Guardiola? Jurgen Klopp? If Muhammad Ali didn't have strength, or an aura of dominance he wouldn't be called 'The Greatest' would he? If a young Rovers acadamy player lacked strength and wasn't dominant in either his performances, application, work rate etc He'd be released straight away. So Joey Barton who made it to the top level of English Football and got capped for his country, will no doubt have those traits too. It doesn't instantly make it Toxic. This is why it gets tiresome and most of it's absolute bullshit. Which of these are you choosing your three from? "the constellation of socially regressive [masculine] traits that serve to foster domination, the devaluation of women, homophobia, and wanton violence.” You appear to miss the point completely I've listed them Strength, dominance and showing lack of emotion. Your 2nd paragraph I've already talked about that in that imo Trans Issues are far more severe forms of Toxic Masculinity than the words of Andrew Tate, so I've already mentioned that. What point have I missed Oldie? You posted 'This harmful concept of masculinity also places significant importance on ‘manliness’ based on: strength lack of emotion self-sufficiency dominance sexual virility So as I mentioned above at least 3 out of 5 of them Strength, Lack Of Emotion' and Dominance are what most successful sportsman and winners all have in abundance. You could possibly put Self-sufficiency in as well, especially in certain individual Sports. Again like I said Joey Barton who played pretty much all his career at the highest level in England, plus got capped for his country would most probably have those traits as well. How does having strength, being able to not show emotion, and wanting to be dominant instantly mean it's a 'Harmful concept of Masculinity'. Absolute Nonsense. To be successful or to keep on winning means you need to be dominant. |
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Barton
Jul 20, 2023 20:38:24 GMT
via mobile
eric likes this
Post by Gastafari on Jul 20, 2023 20:38:24 GMT
Of course it does Topper. That doesn't make any sense. To be dominant,successful or a winner n any sport you need to be goal-oriented, you need to take risks, you need to be good under stress or pressure, highly competitive, ambitious and entrepreneurial as well as most professional sportsman whether you're Lewis Hamilton a multi millionaire or Lewis Gordon who (just an estimation) may be on 70k a year, so although complete opposite ends of the spectrum are still very well paid compared to the average person. All those things are the main components of having a Dominant Personality which all professional Sportsman will probably have, let alone the very Elite ones. I thought we were talking about dominant behaviours in relationships not just solely sporting achievements? Looking at footballers who reach the top do they dominate every relationship or do they have an equal footing with team mates and listen to what the coaches and managers have to tell them? You clearly missed the bit where I stated, 'Strictly Talking About Sport Here'. Oh ok, so were now picking and choosing when men can show strength and dominance? See this is the absolute bullshit I'm talking about. Its nonsense. |
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Post by Topper Gas on Jul 20, 2023 21:08:47 GMT
I thought we were talking about dominant behaviours in relationships not just solely sporting achievements? Looking at footballers who reach the top do they dominate every relationship or do they have an equal footing with team mates and listen to what the coaches and managers have to tell them? You clearly missed the bit where I stated, 'Strictly Talking About Sport Here'. Oh ok, so were now picking and choosing when men can show strength and dominance? See this is the absolute bullshit I'm talking about. Its nonsense. No idea what we're talking about TBH but assumed it was in relationships not sporting prowess. |
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Post by gashead1981 on Jul 20, 2023 21:14:43 GMT
Id say that to be any form of leader, be it in an army, company, a sports person or a coach you need to have dominance and a lack of emotion.
This is exactly what I mean by what is "toxic masculinity". If you remove one of those traits from every successful man alive he wouldn't be the successful man he is.
The same goes for females. I've worked with some absolutely brilliant women, and I would say dominance and strength were their overriding personality traits. Is that toxic femininity at play?
Was it a bad thing? Not in the workplace, they were utterly brilliant at what they did and they had my full respect even if others (men and women) didn't like the way they were.
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Barton
Jul 20, 2023 21:42:13 GMT
via mobile
Post by Gastafari on Jul 20, 2023 21:42:13 GMT
You clearly missed the bit where I stated, 'Strictly Talking About Sport Here'. Oh ok, so were now picking and choosing when men can show strength and dominance? See this is the absolute bullshit I'm talking about. Its nonsense. No idea what we're talking about TBH but assumed it was in relationships not sporting prowess. I clearly mentioned sports. Anyway you cant just list things that apparently are harmful forms of masculinity like strength and dominance when pretty much any successful male in any field whether it's sport, business, politics, Armed Forces or whatever need those very things to succeed in any walk of life. I still cant fathom how they're instantly harmful, dangerous or toxic. Nonsense. |
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Post by axegas on Jul 20, 2023 21:50:45 GMT
Id say that to be any form of leader, be it in an army, company, a sports person or a coach you need to have dominance and a lack of emotion. This is exactly what I mean by what is "toxic masculinity". If you remove one of those traits from every successful man alive he wouldn't be the successful man he is. The same goes for females. I've worked with some absolutely brilliant women, and I would say dominance and strength were their overriding personality traits. Is that toxic femininity at play? Was it a bad thing? Not in the workplace, they were utterly brilliant at what they did and they had my full respect even if others (men and women) didn't like the way they were. Those are traits of masculinity, and not bad traits to have whatsoever. In fact very good ones.
Toxic masculinity is using traits typically associated with masculinity to have a negative affect on others, particularly in personal relationships. Using dominance to exhert control over someone or to manipulate or coerce, using lack of emotion to ignore someone crying out for help.
Leadership as you've mentioned is using masculine traits positively, for the benefit of the Army squad, business, athlete, team etc. Dominance shows assertiveness and quick thinking, lack of emotion allows for tough calls to be made.
Toxic femininity is probably a thing too, it just hasn't been coined as a phrase in widely used vernancular. But there are definitely traits associated with femininity that can be used to have a negative impact on others.
It's also probably important to say that a women can display traits of toxic masculinity, at the end of the day the term is based on stereotypes rather than actuality.
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Post by oldie on Jul 20, 2023 22:08:22 GMT
Id say that to be any form of leader, be it in an army, company, a sports person or a coach you need to have dominance and a lack of emotion. This is exactly what I mean by what is "toxic masculinity". If you remove one of those traits from every successful man alive he wouldn't be the successful man he is. The same goes for females. I've worked with some absolutely brilliant women, and I would say dominance and strength were their overriding personality traits. Is that toxic femininity at play? Was it a bad thing? Not in the workplace, they were utterly brilliant at what they did and they had my full respect even if others (men and women) didn't like the way they were. To you 1981 and Gastafari. You say lack of emotion is "essential" Do you really believe that a lack of empathy is possible in a good leader? |
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Post by axegas on Jul 20, 2023 22:17:40 GMT
Id say that to be any form of leader, be it in an army, company, a sports person or a coach you need to have dominance and a lack of emotion. This is exactly what I mean by what is "toxic masculinity". If you remove one of those traits from every successful man alive he wouldn't be the successful man he is. The same goes for females. I've worked with some absolutely brilliant women, and I would say dominance and strength were their overriding personality traits. Is that toxic femininity at play? Was it a bad thing? Not in the workplace, they were utterly brilliant at what they did and they had my full respect even if others (men and women) didn't like the way they were. To you 1981 and Gastafari. You say lack of emotion is "essential" Do you really believe that a lack of empathy is possible in a good leader? Thing is Oldie, I don't think lack of empathy is a trait of masculinity. I think that's people falsely applying the opposite of femininity to mean masculinity.
Lack of empathy is more down to how a person has been raised, their background and experiences. I've seen just as many women as men lack empathy.
The trait of masculinity is an outward lack of emotion, but that doesn't preclude emotion that might arise under the surface nor the ability to show empathy.
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