stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 23, 2024 7:11:58 GMT
Maybe we can use a better analogy to explain what happened on both sides rather than this distasteful one - and let me clarify - I am in no way defending any Russian aggression (in fact I think the West should be taking more action to retaliate) *but* what I can see is both sides to this story and am trying to explain why certain people saw this coming and were proved correct... Russia needs a reason to be relevant in the modern world. Since the fall of the Soviet Union all they have is one or two natural resources, a lot of barren (or at least hard o use) land and a long proud history they want to defend... ...so when NATO and the EU expand East and then East again, they are doing what they think is the best thing for both existing and new members - but they are also clearly aware it will provoke Russia by changing the nature of the countries closer and closer to the Russian border. Was that the only reason? Of course not, there are lots of internal Russian reasons as well, but it clearly was a factor and that was what Farage has said before and was clarifying again.... Farage a past regular on Russia Today has been a Putin apologist for a decade all initially driven by his belief that the EU is a more dangerous empire than the Russian empire. In March 2014 during TV debate with Nick Clegg he claimed “We should hang our heads in shame. The British government has actually geed up the EU to pursue effectively an imperialist, expansionist – and even Mr Barroso, the commission president, once said we are building an empire. "We have given a false series of hopes to a group of people in the western Ukraine. So geed up were they that they actually toppled their own elected leader. That provoked Mr Putin. I think the EU frankly does have blood on its hands in the Ukraine. “The approach of David Cameron, William Hague, Nick Clegg and other EU leaders has been disastrous. "If you poke the Russian bear with a stick he will respond. And if you have neither the means nor the political will to face him down that is very obviously not a good idea." Asked separately but in same month which current world leader he most admired, Farage replied: "As an operator, but not as a human being, I would say Putin. "The way he played the whole Syria thing. Brilliant.” He's an apologist, inadvertently or not, for mass slaughter and subjugation.
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Post by yattongas on Jun 23, 2024 7:59:44 GMT
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Post by Gassy on Jun 23, 2024 9:33:47 GMT
Sure, it’s the rapists fault he raped her, but it’s the woman who provoked him by wearing a short skirt. Maybe we can use a better analogy to explain what happened on both sides rather than this distasteful one - and let me clarify - I am in no way defending any Russian aggression (in fact I think the West should be taking more action to retaliate) *but* what I can see is both sides to this story and am trying to explain why certain people saw this coming and were proved correct... Russia needs a reason to be relevant in the modern world. Since the fall of the Soviet Union all they have is one or two natural resources, a lot of barren (or at least hard o use) land and a long proud history they want to defend... ...so when NATO and the EU expand East and then East again, they are doing what they think is the best thing for both existing and new members - but they are also clearly aware it will provoke Russia by changing the nature of the countries closer and closer to the Russian border. Was that the only reason? Of course not, there are lots of internal Russian reasons as well, but it clearly was a factor and that was what Farage has said before and was clarifying again.... Saw it coming? You mean when he posted stop poking Russia after they’d already invaded and illegally annexed Crimea? Let’s be honest, Russia has been planning this an extremely long time. Their saving up and investments in military have proven this. Putin needed an excuse and he will always use the west to do so. Anyone who defends this excuse is as bad as Farage for defending it. If you think my example comparing victim blaming is distasteful, I’d think about what Putin is doing to tens of thousands of innocent people, and then think about which is actually more distasteful. Putin has a warrant for his arrest on war crimes, and Farage defends him. You’ve then gone even further to try and justify his view. Shocking really
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Post by supergas on Jun 23, 2024 10:37:52 GMT
Maybe we can use a better analogy to explain what happened on both sides rather than this distasteful one - and let me clarify - I am in no way defending any Russian aggression (in fact I think the West should be taking more action to retaliate) *but* what I can see is both sides to this story and am trying to explain why certain people saw this coming and were proved correct... Russia needs a reason to be relevant in the modern world. Since the fall of the Soviet Union all they have is one or two natural resources, a lot of barren (or at least hard o use) land and a long proud history they want to defend... ...so when NATO and the EU expand East and then East again, they are doing what they think is the best thing for both existing and new members - but they are also clearly aware it will provoke Russia by changing the nature of the countries closer and closer to the Russian border. Was that the only reason? Of course not, there are lots of internal Russian reasons as well, but it clearly was a factor and that was what Farage has said before and was clarifying again.... Tosh The Soviet Union collapsed because it was, as a enforced government, inept, corrupt and fascist in nature. Those countries ensnared in that awful embrace, once free, chose to join the EU and aspired to join NATO. Nobody forced them, their reasons were to protect themselves from the awfulness of went before. There is no proud history to Russia, it's a failed State that exists only by oppression. They live off of resisting Napoleon and Hitler in their heads. It's a fascist State, stop defending it. Where am I defending Russia? So many people on here either jumping to conclusions, not reading the points I'm making or not bothering to try to understand them...
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Post by supergas on Jun 23, 2024 10:49:00 GMT
Maybe we can use a better analogy to explain what happened on both sides rather than this distasteful one - and let me clarify - I am in no way defending any Russian aggression (in fact I think the West should be taking more action to retaliate) *but* what I can see is both sides to this story and am trying to explain why certain people saw this coming and were proved correct... Russia needs a reason to be relevant in the modern world. Since the fall of the Soviet Union all they have is one or two natural resources, a lot of barren (or at least hard o use) land and a long proud history they want to defend... ...so when NATO and the EU expand East and then East again, they are doing what they think is the best thing for both existing and new members - but they are also clearly aware it will provoke Russia by changing the nature of the countries closer and closer to the Russian border. Was that the only reason? Of course not, there are lots of internal Russian reasons as well, but it clearly was a factor and that was what Farage has said before and was clarifying again.... Saw it coming? You mean when he posted stop poking Russia after they’d already invaded and illegally annexed Crimea? Let’s be honest, Russia has been planning this an extremely long time. Their saving up and investments in military have proven this. Putin needed an excuse and he will always use the west to do so. Anyone who defends this excuse is as bad as Farage for defending it. If you think my example comparing victim blaming is distasteful, I’d think about what Putin is doing to tens of thousands of innocent people, and then think about which is actually more distasteful. Putin has a warrant for his arrest on war crimes, and Farage defends him. You’ve then gone even further to try and justify his view. Shocking really Maybe there's a second interview you have all seen that I haven't. In the BBC one that the original post linked to Farage doesn't defend Russia, in fact he actively condemns them... ...his point was that many (including him) predicted this coming...
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Post by yattongas on Jun 23, 2024 11:18:17 GMT
Saw it coming? You mean when he posted stop poking Russia after they’d already invaded and illegally annexed Crimea? Let’s be honest, Russia has been planning this an extremely long time. Their saving up and investments in military have proven this. Putin needed an excuse and he will always use the west to do so. Anyone who defends this excuse is as bad as Farage for defending it. If you think my example comparing victim blaming is distasteful, I’d think about what Putin is doing to tens of thousands of innocent people, and then think about which is actually more distasteful. Putin has a warrant for his arrest on war crimes, and Farage defends him. You’ve then gone even further to try and justify his view. Shocking really Maybe there's a second interview you have all seen that I haven't. In the BBC one that the original post linked to Farage doesn't defend Russia, in fact he actively condemns them... ...his point was that many (including him) predicted this coming... Listen to the 12 min podcast I posted a link to above 👆
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 23, 2024 12:56:57 GMT
Saw it coming? You mean when he posted stop poking Russia after they’d already invaded and illegally annexed Crimea? Let’s be honest, Russia has been planning this an extremely long time. Their saving up and investments in military have proven this. Putin needed an excuse and he will always use the west to do so. Anyone who defends this excuse is as bad as Farage for defending it. If you think my example comparing victim blaming is distasteful, I’d think about what Putin is doing to tens of thousands of innocent people, and then think about which is actually more distasteful. Putin has a warrant for his arrest on war crimes, and Farage defends him. You’ve then gone even further to try and justify his view. Shocking really Maybe there's a second interview you have all seen that I haven't. In the BBC one that the original post linked to Farage doesn't defend Russia, in fact he actively condemns them... ...his point was that many (including him) predicted this coming... I'm afraid Farage is a complete charlatan and obviously knows little of Russian history and more worrying nothing about what Putin has been planning for years as Gassy rightly says. Putin has publicly stated he wants to restore the Russian Empire,that of Peter the Great etc,this not only means Ukraine but Poland, Lithuania and all the independent border states. Has Farage not been listening,is he intellectually incompetent not to understand what that means,he is just a shallow soundbite politician with no understanding of the situation. Europe/NATO has not attacked Russia and if Countries want to join as a matter of choice are we meant to get Putin's permission first,no I think not.
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Post by Gassy on Jun 23, 2024 17:59:53 GMT
Saw it coming? You mean when he posted stop poking Russia after they’d already invaded and illegally annexed Crimea? Let’s be honest, Russia has been planning this an extremely long time. Their saving up and investments in military have proven this. Putin needed an excuse and he will always use the west to do so. Anyone who defends this excuse is as bad as Farage for defending it. If you think my example comparing victim blaming is distasteful, I’d think about what Putin is doing to tens of thousands of innocent people, and then think about which is actually more distasteful. Putin has a warrant for his arrest on war crimes, and Farage defends him. You’ve then gone even further to try and justify his view. Shocking really Maybe there's a second interview you have all seen that I haven't. In the BBC one that the original post linked to Farage doesn't defend Russia, in fact he actively condemns them... ...his point was that many (including him) predicted this coming... His point was that the west provoked Russia. Which is defending/excusing why they’ve invaded. One thing I will note is that I’m surprised the right posters on this forum haven’t slated Farage for it. Considering how much we heard about Corbyn being a terrorist sympathiser, you’d have thought they’d take this a lot more seriously. I guess it only counts when someone on the left says it though. Maybe I’m not that surprised, at least you had the decency to discuss it. FWIW, do you agree that the west provoked Russia into invading Ukraine?
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 23, 2024 18:18:31 GMT
Saw it coming? You mean when he posted stop poking Russia after they’d already invaded and illegally annexed Crimea? Let’s be honest, Russia has been planning this an extremely long time. Their saving up and investments in military have proven this. Putin needed an excuse and he will always use the west to do so. Anyone who defends this excuse is as bad as Farage for defending it. If you think my example comparing victim blaming is distasteful, I’d think about what Putin is doing to tens of thousands of innocent people, and then think about which is actually more distasteful. Putin has a warrant for his arrest on war crimes, and Farage defends him. You’ve then gone even further to try and justify his view. Shocking really Maybe there's a second interview you have all seen that I haven't. In the BBC one that the original post linked to Farage doesn't defend Russia, in fact he actively condemns them... ...his point was that many (including him) predicted this coming... Hardly a GGMI-esque Boom! moment, and he's wrong for the reasons anyway.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 23, 2024 18:25:16 GMT
Maybe there's a second interview you have all seen that I haven't. In the BBC one that the original post linked to Farage doesn't defend Russia, in fact he actively condemns them... ...his point was that many (including him) predicted this coming... His point was that the west provoked Russia. Which is defending/excusing why they’ve invaded. One thing I will note is that I’m surprised the right posters on this forum haven’t slated Farage for it. Considering how much we heard about Corbyn being a terrorist sympathiser, you’d have thought they’d take this a lot more seriously. I guess it only counts when someone on the left says it though. Maybe I’m not that surprised, at least you had the decency to discuss it. FWIW, do you agree that the west provoked Russia into invading Ukraine? Super is just trying to explain Farage's comments, albeit from the wrong angle. The real desperate stuff is from Farage's groupies on the other forum, two enjoying this and one positively salivating at the thought of France descending into Civil War.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 23, 2024 19:18:55 GMT
Saw my first 'Vote Conservative' banner today, in a field driving along the M4.
If signs outside houses is any gauge then Labour will win hands down.
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Post by aghast on Jun 23, 2024 19:28:02 GMT
Saw my first 'Vote Conservative' banner today, in a field driving along the M4. If signs outside houses is any gauge then Labour will win hands down. There's a cafe in the centre of Chippenham which is emblazoned with Vote Tory posters. Not the best way to sell more bacon sandwiches, I wouldn't have thought.
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Post by yattongas on Jun 23, 2024 19:28:15 GMT
Saw my first 'Vote Conservative' banner today, in a field driving along the M4. If signs outside houses is any gauge then Labour will win hands down. Really ? I was going to ask if anyone had seen one because I haven’t seen a single vote Tory banner anywhere….. which is unheard of in this area . Only seen Libdems signs around here .
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 23, 2024 20:22:40 GMT
Saw my first 'Vote Conservative' banner today, in a field driving along the M4. If signs outside houses is any gauge then Labour will win hands down. Really ? I was going to ask if anyone had seen one because I haven’t seen a single vote Tory banner anywhere….. which is unheard of in this area . Only seen Libdems signs around here . Bizarrely saw one near Llangollen 🙄🙄
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Post by yattongas on Jun 23, 2024 20:44:53 GMT
Really ? I was going to ask if anyone had seen one because I haven’t seen a single vote Tory banner anywhere….. which is unheard of in this area . Only seen Libdems signs around here . Bizarrely saw one near Llangollen 🙄🙄 Visiting near there in August ….Lady Margaret's Park Club Campsite . Guessing it’s a very labour area you’re in ?
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 24, 2024 7:46:51 GMT
Bizarrely saw one near Llangollen 🙄🙄 Visiting near there in August ….Lady Margaret's Park Club Campsite . Guessing it’s a very labour area you’re in ? Bit of a mixed bag,think they returned a Tory in North East Wales last time for the first time in years,only seen loads of labour signs this time so will go back to labour. Your going to Chirk which is right on the border,some stunning scenery etc round here and on the coast ,let me know when you visit and if I'm about I will buy you a sherbert.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 24, 2024 9:30:15 GMT
IFS eviscerating the manifestos today.
Essentially we are voting in a "knowledge vacuum".
Suppose that hasn't stopped us in the past.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 24, 2024 14:48:47 GMT
YouGov say that the voters' priorities are:
Economy Housing Immigration Health
In that order.
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Post by Gassy on Jun 24, 2024 14:52:54 GMT
YouGov say that the voters' priorities are: Economy Housing Immigration Health In that order. Thinks like mortgage rates, does that come under economy or housing?
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Post by yattongas on Jun 24, 2024 14:58:06 GMT
YouGov say that the voters' priorities are: Economy Housing Immigration Health In that order. Immigration at third ? Hmmm Thought this was the immigration election? 🙄 Weird the way it drops right down the concern charts for voters in normal yrs but ramps right up in the lead up to elections. Id guess sewerage etc must be next on the list ?
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