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Post by Smithy Gas on Oct 24, 2024 22:01:21 GMT
I Remember when we had 600 odd passes and all the possession against Morecambe under the messiah. We got dicked 5-1.
Underlying data my arse.
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Post by Topper Gas on Oct 24, 2024 22:04:32 GMT
If you think MT is such a good manager what's your forecast for the next two league games?
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Post by socrates on Oct 24, 2024 22:09:07 GMT
If you think MT is such a good manager what's your forecast for the next two league games? I know you’re not asking me but I reckon between 1 and 4 points. |
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Post by yattongas on Oct 24, 2024 22:13:39 GMT
If you think MT is such a good manager what's your forecast for the next two league games? 6-0 gas , 4-0 gas . Whoop whoop 🙌🏽 |
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Post by socrates on Oct 24, 2024 22:15:46 GMT
If you think MT is such a good manager what's your forecast for the next two league games? 6-0 gas , 4-0 gas . Whoop whoop 🙌🏽 The Gas are going up The Gas are going up ! |
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Post by warehamgas on Oct 24, 2024 23:14:34 GMT
Spot on. Anomaly results prove nothing, our performances and stats are very poor. Have a look at the stats in league 1. Week in week out the majority of the teams that has less Possession and shots wins the game. There’s so many clubs in the lower leagues trying to replicate Gardiolas style that now in those lower league the team with less of the ball , less territorial possession usually wins . Take Tuesday ,every winning team bar Birmingham had less possession and that’s not unusual, football is going through a strange time currently I’ve been studying the stats of the league 1 and 2 sides for a while now because I find it intriguing how so many lower league managers are trying to adapt a playing out from the back slow possession based style with players that clearly aren’t comfortable with it. it started at the beginning of last season when lots on here were saying that we were playing beautiful football under Barton and that the results would come, I didn’t buy in to it so started to look in to it. Literally the only stat that matters is the league table and Taylor has us looking bang average which is what we are. We could go back to playing hundreds of passes across the back four / five and in to trouble and I can pretty much guarantee we’d be getting beat more than we are currently ( see Barton, Garner in league 1 ) Without Collins and Evans this squad probably isnt as strong as last season yet Taylor is getting more out of his squad just like he did get more out of Barton’s squad because he understands the level which we are playing at. I’m not saying Taylor is the messiah , he’s quite dull and he’s unlikely to get us in to the top 6 but he’s way more likely to keep us up than Barton , Garner or Tisdale were. Agree. On Tuesday sat high in the East Stand you get a great view and at times I was wanting them to pass into the space which was there for forwards to run into. Passing around at the back just encourages opposition to close them down and then being League 1 players they sometimes panic. It’s just not effective. Great to see a passing game but it has to be effective and doing it at the back isn’t. I guess the truth is it’s good to see a passing game but you need to mix it at this level. They are not good enough to do it the Man City way, few are. It’s also interesting to see the training routines that are set up pre-match. We use a routine that practices a very quick pass and go in a confined space. And of course our goal came from a similar close passing routine in the box before freeing Lindsay to score. The finishing could obviously be better but Promise, Shaq, Sotiriou and O’Dendoncker with Martin to come back is a far better group than we’ve had for a few years imo. Socrates, I think forwards we are stronger than last season. Collins had a good season before but last season he was very average before he left. And when he left all we had was Martin annd he seemed to struggle with fitness. And I think we’ll get better but we’ve had 5 wins from 12 games. I’ll leave it to others to check the stats but that will be as good as anything in League 1 this century. I think, I’m sure someone may put me right. UTG! |
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Post by William Wilson on Oct 25, 2024 6:33:38 GMT
Have a look at the stats in league 1. Week in week out the majority of the teams that has less Possession and shots wins the game. There’s so many clubs in the lower leagues trying to replicate Gardiolas style that now in those lower league the team with less of the ball , less territorial possession usually wins . Take Tuesday ,every winning team bar Birmingham had less possession and that’s not unusual, football is going through a strange time currently I’ve been studying the stats of the league 1 and 2 sides for a while now because I find it intriguing how so many lower league managers are trying to adapt a playing out from the back slow possession based style with players that clearly aren’t comfortable with it. it started at the beginning of last season when lots on here were saying that we were playing beautiful football under Barton and that the results would come, I didn’t buy in to it so started to look in to it. Literally the only stat that matters is the league table and Taylor has us looking bang average which is what we are. We could go back to playing hundreds of passes across the back four / five and in to trouble and I can pretty much guarantee we’d be getting beat more than we are currently ( see Barton, Garner in league 1 ) Without Collins and Evans this squad probably isnt as strong as last season yet Taylor is getting more out of his squad just like he did get more out of Barton’s squad because he understands the level which we are playing at. I’m not saying Taylor is the messiah , he’s quite dull and he’s unlikely to get us in to the top 6 but he’s way more likely to keep us up than Barton , Garner or Tisdale were. Agree. On Tuesday sat high in the East Stand you get a great view and at times I was wanting them to pass into the space which was there for forwards to run into. Passing around at the back just encourages opposition to close them down and then being League 1 players they sometimes panic. It’s just not effective. Great to see a passing game but it has to be effective and doing it at the back isn’t. I guess the truth is it’s good to see a passing game but you need to mix it at this level. They are not good enough to do it the Man City way, few are. It’s also interesting to see the training routines that are set up pre-match. We use a routine that practices a very quick pass and go in a confined space. And of course our goal came from a similar close passing routine in the box before freeing Lindsay to score. The finishing could obviously be better but Promise, Shaq, Sotiriou and O’Dendoncker with Martin to come back is a far better group than we’ve had for a few years imo. Socrates, I think forwards we are stronger than last season. Collins had a good season before but last season he was very average before he left. And when he left all we had was Martin annd he seemed to struggle with fitness. And I think we’ll get better but we’ve had 5 wins from 12 games. I’ll leave it to others to check the stats but that will be as good as anything in League 1 this century. I think, I’m sure someone may put me right. UTG! Top post, Wareham. And if we get another 5 wins from our next 12 games, I won`t be unhappy. But I still have a feeling that we win games in spite of Taylor, rather than because of him. I think we`ve assembled a decent squad of players here, that even Wayne Rooney would struggle to make uncompetitive. |
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Post by igotgas on Oct 25, 2024 7:42:20 GMT
I Remember when we had 600 odd passes and all the possession against Morecambe under the messiah. We got dicked 5-1. Underlying data my arse. Oh yeah ya buffoon…..underlying data really means possession stats 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤡🤡🤡 Honestly like speaking to someone who’s had a lobotomy sometimes. |
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Post by igotgas on Oct 25, 2024 7:45:10 GMT
Have a look at the stats in league 1. **Week in week out the majority of the teams that has less Possession and shots wins the game**. There’s so many clubs in the lower leagues trying to replicate Gardiolas style that now in those lower league the team with less of the ball , less territorial possession usually wins . Take Tuesday ,every winning team bar Birmingham had less possession and that’s not unusual, football is going through a strange time currently I’ve been studying the stats of the league 1 and 2 sides for a while now because I find it intriguing how so many lower league managers are trying to adapt a playing out from the back slow possession based style with players that clearly aren’t comfortable with it. it started at the beginning of last season when lots on here were saying that we were playing beautiful football under Barton and that the results would come, I didn’t buy in to it so started to look in to it. Literally the only stat that matters is the league table and Taylor has us looking bang average which is what we are. We could go back to playing hundreds of passes across the back four / five and in to trouble and I can pretty much guarantee we’d be getting beat more than we are currently ( see Barton, Garner in league 1 ) Without Collins and Evans this squad probably isnt as strong as last season yet Taylor is getting more out of his squad just like he did get more out of Barton’s squad because he understands the level which we are playing at. I’m not saying Taylor is the messiah , he’s quite dull and he’s unlikely to get us in to the top 6 but he’s way more likely to keep us up than Barton , Garner or Tisdale were. Interesting. No one, literally no one suggested possession was the all important barometer to success. No one. |
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Post by igotgas on Oct 25, 2024 7:58:12 GMT
Absolute nonsense. Underlying data is what’s important. Underlying data determines performance and consistency. If your underlying data is consistently good you’ll have more good performances than bad and performances over a longer period determine results and you’ll win more games. If the underlying data is poor (possession, passes, shots on target, chances created, chances conceded, duels won/lost etc etc) then you’ll produce more poor performances than good and over time lose more games than you win. You will of course win some games but those wins will largely be down to the performance of the opposition…..which has undoubtedly been the case. Our underlying data hasn’t changed from first game to last game, home or away, wins or losses. We’re basically a very poorly managed and coached football team with a manager full of bluster using stupid terminology which has the aim of confusing the layman. I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong but under Barton we had fantastic possession and passing stats yet his PPG in L1 is inferior to Taylors. I'm bored of hearing about stats that "prove" Taylor is the devil incarnate. If people don't like him because he's dull, the football is dull, the tactics are baffling then fair enough but stats are just part of the picture, not the be all and end all. Some stats say we were poor against Charlton and Shrewsbury but there are also stats that show we were better than them. This is always the response to a conversation regarding stats….as I’ve said above the retort is always to refer to possession. But I’ll respond to your post with a little more patience than the previous one due to the fact you at least made it articulate. No one has suggested possession in itself has anything to do with winning. When we talk underlying data, we’re talking real data. How many entries into the opposition penalty area, chance creation, shots and shots on target, duels won / lost, successful dribbles, the areas we pass in, the amount of forwards passes, the tackles won and where etc etc etc. then it’s married up with the oppositions data regarding the same….how chances did we concede, how many shots did we allow them and from where, how many duels they won and what part of the pitch…etc etc Along with those stats possession and passes complete will feature but as you say counter attacking particularly in the lower leagues often outweighs possession…..IF the stuff above is favorable….ok so we conceded possession to the opposition it we didn’t allow them to enter our penalty box and we limited them to low no of chances and only shots from outside the box….if we then entered their penalty area and had several efforts on target from good areas then it’s likely we will have a better chance of winning. HOWEVER…..my point was more to do with consistency of those numbers. If we consistently concede more chances than the opposition or more territory or more possession or lose more duels or allow them to enter our box too often then over a period of time our results will show more losses than wins. If we continually show the same level (a low number) of important data then our results over a longer period will reflect that and the wins will be (if our data performance is consistent) will rely more on the fluctuations of the oppositions data. This is evident if you consider the Charlton result. If I had a pound for every time I read “but they beat Birmingham…..” I’d be rich , but our performance against Charlton wasn’t a lot different to all our other performances and therefore their performances between us and Brum is where the difference lies along with Brums performance clearly dipping on that night. If you look at all our games and the numbers we are allowed to access you’ll see that it rarely differs regardless of a 1-0 win v Northampton and a 4-0 loss to Wigan…..same as the 3-2 v Charlton and the 1-0 to Shrewsbury which indicates very much that a) we aren’t actually improving that much and b) the results depend very much on the opposition quality on the day. |
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Post by bluegas on Oct 25, 2024 8:34:11 GMT
[quote timestamp="1729790827" author=" Hugo the Elder" source=" If you look at all our games and the numbers we are allowed to access you’ll see that it rarely differs regardless of a 1-0 win v Northampton and a 4-0 loss to Wigan…..same as the 3-2 v Charlton and the 1-0 to Shrewsbury which indicates very much that a) we actually improving that much and b) the results depend very much on the opposition quality on the day. This last paragraph encapsulates it. Being a geriatric old fogey, I pay no attention to them whatsoever. It should be obvious that our results are, to say the least, fortunate. We are not improving and it's down to the ineptitude and shortcomings of the opposition (and referees) that we we have the points we have. We can't depend on that continuing. |
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Post by Smithy Gas on Oct 25, 2024 8:36:13 GMT
I Remember when we had 600 odd passes and all the possession against Morecambe under the messiah. We got dicked 5-1. Underlying data my arse. Oh yeah ya buffoon…..underlying data really means possession stats 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤡🤡🤡 Honestly like speaking to someone who’s had a lobotomy sometimes. You just wrote a load of Dam waffle. I suspect all of those “metrics” were good in the game I mentioned too (genuinely don’t care if they were or not by the way…) it’s a bloody simple game getting so complicated by all this sh**e but plenty of people are getting paid so fair play to them and if people enjoy getting rattled on a forum about it then even better. Most people want to see us win. Playing nice football as well is a bonus (our goal was nice football on Tuesday - didn’t agree with changing to 352 for twenty minutes and that’s how Taylor is set in his ways). Have a Chinese lads. |
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Post by igotgas on Oct 25, 2024 8:48:22 GMT
You just wrote a load of Dam waffle. I suspect all of those “metrics” were good in the game I mentioned too (genuinely don’t care if they were or not by the way…) A load of waffle it may be, I’d argue it’s possibly just beyond your easy comprehension and so you dismiss it easily. To put it in layman’s terms just for you, performances drove results eventually. While you can play poorly and win and play well and lose over the longer period performances will determine results. Put performances in relation to all the relevant metrics is overall poor and overall consistently poor. This will result in many more losses than wins and it’s showing no improvement regardless of who we play. This tells us that a win or a loss is more reliant on how the opposition are or are playing than it is on us. Over time that’ll bite us in the @rse. it’s a bloody simple game getting so complicated by all this sh**e but plenty of people are getting paid so fair play to them and if people enjoy getting rattled on a forum about it then even better. No idea what this all means. Have you had an early morning drink? Most people want to see us win. Playing nice football as well is a bonus (our goal was nice football on Tuesday - didn’t agree with changing to 352 for twenty minutes and that’s how Taylor is set in his ways). Have a Chinese lads. I don’t really care if it’s nice football or not tbh. Preferably I’d like us to show a level of proficient skill but if we have a way of playing and it’s consistently better than opposition I can live with it however it is. The issue is we have no idea what the identity is and the results are inconsistent and are reliant on the opposition being poor either overall (Cambridge / Shrewsbury) or simply on the day (Charlton). I don’t know how much clearer this can be but if we play exactly the same level Saturday and concede the chances we conceded Tuesday we will lose by several goals. That’ll be nothing to do with playing well Tuesday and poorly Saturday. It’ll be to do with the legal of the opposition and / or the law of averages! |
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Post by warehamgas on Oct 25, 2024 11:47:32 GMT
Agree. On Tuesday sat high in the East Stand you get a great view and at times I was wanting them to pass into the space which was there for forwards to run into. Passing around at the back just encourages opposition to close them down and then being League 1 players they sometimes panic. It’s just not effective. Great to see a passing game but it has to be effective and doing it at the back isn’t. I guess the truth is it’s good to see a passing game but you need to mix it at this level. They are not good enough to do it the Man City way, few are. It’s also interesting to see the training routines that are set up pre-match. We use a routine that practices a very quick pass and go in a confined space. And of course our goal came from a similar close passing routine in the box before freeing Lindsay to score. The finishing could obviously be better but Promise, Shaq, Sotiriou and O’Dendoncker with Martin to come back is a far better group than we’ve had for a few years imo. Socrates, I think forwards we are stronger than last season. Collins had a good season before but last season he was very average before he left. And when he left all we had was Martin annd he seemed to struggle with fitness. And I think we’ll get better but we’ve had 5 wins from 12 games. I’ll leave it to others to check the stats but that will be as good as anything in League 1 this century. I think, I’m sure someone may put me right. UTG! Top post, Wareham. And if we get another 5 wins from our next 12 games, I won`t be unhappy. But I still have a feeling that we win games in spite of Taylor, rather than because of him. I think we`ve assembled a decent squad of players here, that even Wayne Rooney would struggle to make uncompetitive. Yes, I get that and can understand fans thinking it. As you say, another 5 wins from next 12 games will be ok esp if we could get a few draws from the others. Is it only 1 draw this season? Usually we draw more but so far the only consistent thing is our inconsistency. UTG! |
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Post by warehamgas on Oct 25, 2024 11:55:44 GMT
I Remember when we had 600 odd passes and all the possession against Morecambe under the messiah. We got dicked 5-1. Underlying data my arse. Oh yeah ya buffoon…..underlying data really means possession stats 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤡🤡🤡 Honestly like speaking to someone who’s had a lobotomy sometimes. What a charming response! 🥺 ’Honestly’ an appreciation that other points of view exist might make for a better discussion that you’ve said you want. Responding as above doesn’t. Oh dear. UTG! |
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Post by Smithy Gas on Oct 25, 2024 12:09:48 GMT
You just wrote a load of Dam waffle. I suspect all of those “metrics” were good in the game I mentioned too (genuinely don’t care if they were or not by the way…) A load of waffle it may be, I’d argue it’s possibly just beyond your easy comprehension and so you dismiss it easily. To put it in layman’s terms just for you, performances drove results eventually. While you can play poorly and win and play well and lose over the longer period performances will determine results. Put performances in relation to all the relevant metrics is overall poor and overall consistently poor. This will result in many more losses than wins and it’s showing no improvement regardless of who we play. This tells us that a win or a loss is more reliant on how the opposition are or are playing than it is on us. Over time that’ll bite us in the @rse. it’s a bloody simple game getting so complicated by all this sh**e but plenty of people are getting paid so fair play to them and if people enjoy getting rattled on a forum about it then even better. No idea what this all means. Have you had an early morning drink? Most people want to see us win. Playing nice football as well is a bonus (our goal was nice football on Tuesday - didn’t agree with changing to 352 for twenty minutes and that’s how Taylor is set in his ways). Have a Chinese lads. I don’t really care if it’s nice football or not tbh. Preferably I’d like us to show a level of proficient skill but if we have a way of playing and it’s consistently better than opposition I can live with it however it is. The issue is we have no idea what the identity is and the results are inconsistent and are reliant on the opposition being poor either overall (Cambridge / Shrewsbury) or simply on the day (Charlton). I don’t know how much clearer this can be but if we play exactly the same level Saturday and concede the chances we conceded Tuesday we will lose by several goals. That’ll be nothing to do with playing well Tuesday and poorly Saturday. It’ll be to do with the legal of the opposition and / or the law of averages! It’s cute. You keep condescending people because you know better. Can throw in some big words and football analytic buzzwords too. Might work. Pretty boring though. Here is a different view point. If we play at the same level we played at on Tuesday and take all of the chances we missed we might batter Reading. You don’t know and neither do I - only one of us pretends otherwise though. |
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Post by igotgas on Oct 25, 2024 12:24:32 GMT
The reply suited the tone of the post imo 👍
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Post by igotgas on Oct 25, 2024 12:31:10 GMT
It’s cute. You keep condescending people because you know better. Can throw in some big words and football analytic buzzwords too. Might work. Pretty boring though. Here is a different view point. If we play at the same level we played at on Tuesday and take all of the chances we missed we might batter Reading. You don’t know and neither do I - only one of us pretends otherwise though. Aw…..I’m using big words…bless ya. Yep if Reading allow us the same chances Shrewsbury offered we may score more than one. That wasn’t the discussion though, the discussion was regarding the level of our performances against the fluctuation in opposition. I’m pretending to know nothing. I’m suggesting that overall, consistent performances, good or bad, will show in longer term results. Short term “we beat Shrewsbury” today means not a lot of the performances are poor for the same reasons on the same manner. The same way as consistently good performances will always be interspersed with the odd defeat which doesn’t immediately signal a poor team or a need to change anything. “Keep a winning team” or “change a losing one” are the most ill advised short term mentalities in football. |
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Post by chewbacca on Oct 25, 2024 12:50:46 GMT
Delicious foruming, well done all involved.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Oct 25, 2024 13:09:17 GMT
I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong but under Barton we had fantastic possession and passing stats yet his PPG in L1 is inferior to Taylors. I'm bored of hearing about stats that "prove" Taylor is the devil incarnate. If people don't like him because he's dull, the football is dull, the tactics are baffling then fair enough but stats are just part of the picture, not the be all and end all. Some stats say we were poor against Charlton and Shrewsbury but there are also stats that show we were better than them. This is always the response to a conversation regarding stats….as I’ve said above the retort is always to refer to possession. But I’ll respond to your post with a little more patience than the previous one due to the fact you at least made it articulate. No one has suggested possession in itself has anything to do with winning. When we talk underlying data, we’re talking real data. How many entries into the opposition penalty area, chance creation, shots and shots on target, duels won / lost, successful dribbles, the areas we pass in, the amount of forwards passes, the tackles won and where etc etc etc. then it’s married up with the oppositions data regarding the same….how chances did we concede, how many shots did we allow them and from where, how many duels they won and what part of the pitch…etc etc Along with those stats possession and passes complete will feature but as you say counter attacking particularly in the lower leagues often outweighs possession…..IF the stuff above is favorable….ok so we conceded possession to the opposition it we didn’t allow them to enter our penalty box and we limited them to low no of chances and only shots from outside the box….if we then entered their penalty area and had several efforts on target from good areas then it’s likely we will have a better chance of winning. HOWEVER…..my point was more to do with consistency of those numbers. If we consistently concede more chances than the opposition or more territory or more possession or lose more duels or allow them to enter our box too often then over a period of time our results will show more losses than wins. If we continually show the same level (a low number) of important data then our results over a longer period will reflect that and the wins will be (if our data performance is consistent) will rely more on the fluctuations of the oppositions data. This is evident if you consider the Charlton result. If I had a pound for every time I read “but they beat Birmingham…..” I’d be rich , but our performance against Charlton wasn’t a lot different to all our other performances and therefore their performances between us and Brum is where the difference lies along with Brums performance clearly dipping on that night. If you look at all our games and the numbers we are allowed to access you’ll see that it rarely differs regardless of a 1-0 win v Northampton and a 4-0 loss to Wigan…..same as the 3-2 v Charlton and the 1-0 to Shrewsbury which indicates very much that a) we aren’t actually improving that much and b) the results depend very much on the opposition quality on the day. Thanks for patronising me for my ability to be articulate, that means a lot. I think you've maybe missed the point of what I was trying to say, or maybe I didn't express myself well enough. I can't help feeling that some people are missing the point of what makes football fun because they are so bogged down with analysis and stats. I enjoyed most of the Shrewsbury game because I preferred the way we were set up and I could see some signs of improvement (aside from the bizarre formation change at the end). All the players looked like they were giving their all and we seemed more on the front foot. I do understand your lengthy reply regarding underlying stats, but it just doesn't move me, nor interest me. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but football should be more about what it stirs in me, gut feelings, hope and fun. If stats float your boat, have at it. Im not saying you are wrong, but they just don't do it for me and I can't help but feel you are missing out on what we all love about the game. |
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