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Post by gashead1981 on Jan 24, 2018 10:21:30 GMT
Don't think I am an idiot, others will surely disagree, but the twelve million was surely what it cost to buy the club. That in my book is classed as an investment. Or if I am wrong in my assumption can those in the know let us know whether they were given the club for free. I disagree with your assessment of what you are. Please tell - Wonga, previous directors, The Colony, DC contract, new players - 'spent' 'investment' what is the difference? in your mind. I don't think you are an Idiot either, but sometimes its just understanding business. Some people don't understand company accounts, not because they are daft but they don't understand terms used or to what it applies. Purchase isn't investment, and neither is cash injection.
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Post by gashead1981 on Jan 24, 2018 10:26:34 GMT
Don't think I am an idiot, others will surely disagree, but the twelve million was surely what it cost to buy the club. That in my book is classed as an investment. Or if I am wrong in my assumption can those in the know let us know whether they were given the club for free. I disagree with your assessment of what you are. Please tell - Wonga, previous directors, The Colony, DC contract, new players - 'spent' 'investment' what is the difference? in your mind. The colony is a separate business and is only an investment once the training ground is on it. So far its just a strip of land owned by the ALQ's which they could build a hotel on if they so wished and obtained planning. DC contract, player purchases etc come out of the clubs annual financial budget based on turnover, income etc and is nothing to do with investment. If that turnover then produces an operating loss that has to be underwritten by the directors, that is classed as a share conversation or a cash injection or simply by extending the overdraft of the bank! It doesnt count as investment! This is what I mean by understanding business wholly.
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Post by peterparker on Jan 24, 2018 10:32:20 GMT
Depends how you want to interpret ‘investment’ and how you have expected that money to have been spent Dwane Sports has had to put in those millions to pay off the ex-directors loans, Wonga, Sainsbury’s costs etc Just because you can’t see where the money has gone.... Peter, I am a businessman myself, (I am not saying this to show off but this is how business works for the majority) I own a couple of businesses and have taken over a couple of companies in my time as well as run companies at board level, so I think I know what I am talking about. Now when I took over a business, I made the initial purchase, that isn't classed as investment, as I have bought a going concern, whether its profitable or not, its still a going concern. That would include purchasing the shares of the existing directors, settling or restructuring the businesses finances as I see fit. At this point, , I haven't invested in anything other than my own portfolio. The going concern simply becomes my responsibility for the existing employees. The ALQ's have done exactly as above. Now if I decide to expand by building or updating additional facilities, replace, buy or maintain more equipment, hire more staff etc etc then that is investment. The money spent is an expected return at some point. I will admit there has been some investment in BRFC, but £12m worth? Really? So you cannot confuse the two. Because one is purchase and one is investment. Companies house accounts won't confuse the two, so why is it fans want to confuse the two? On that basis, Hamer could not and still hasn't ever said what or where that £12m has gone. The company filed accounts will also show that to be true or false. And covering off operating losses also isn't classed as investment, but injection. To keep the company as a going concern or quite simply, it will go bust. I understand that working in accounts.
As I say it depends how people interpret The Al-Qadi's/Hamer's use of the word 'investment'. Probably the wrong word for them to use, but they have had to inject that money into the club
the accounts to 30 June 2016 showed approx. £6.2m loaned to the club to cover some part or all of the outstanding loans, so it's quite clear where half this £12m figure has gone even if investment is the wrong word to use and then we have to facto in the timing aspect as to what the 2016 accounts show compared to when the £12m comment was made as presumably going by those that apparently know on here NH was still being repaid
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Post by knowall on Jan 24, 2018 10:34:10 GMT
Depends how you want to interpret ‘investment’ and how you have expected that money to have been spent Dwane Sports has had to put in those millions to pay off the ex-directors loans, Wonga, Sainsbury’s costs etc Just because you can’t see where the money has gone.... Peter, I am a businessman myself, (I am not saying this to show off but this is how business works for the majority) I own a couple of businesses and have taken over a couple of companies in my time as well as run companies at board level, so I think I know what I am talking about. Now when I took over a business, I made the initial purchase, that isn't classed as investment, as I have bought a going concern, whether its profitable or not, its still a going concern. That would include purchasing the shares of the existing directors, settling or restructuring the businesses finances as I see fit. At this point, , I haven't invested in anything other than my own portfolio. The going concern simply becomes my responsibility for the existing employees. The ALQ's have done exactly as above. Now if I decide to expand by building or updating additional facilities, replace, buy or maintain more equipment, hire more staff etc etc then that is investment. The money spent is an expected return at some point. I will admit there has been some investment in BRFC, but £12m worth? Really? So you cannot confuse the two. Because one is purchase and one is investment. Companies house accounts won't confuse the two, so why is it fans want to confuse the two? On that basis, Hamer could not and still hasn't ever said what or where that £12m has gone. The company filed accounts will also show that to be true or false. And covering off operating losses also isn't classed as investment, but injection. To keep the company as a going concern or quite simply, it will go bust. As someone who has owned and bought Companies in England, Europe, America and The Channel Islands (mine is bigger than yours!!) I have always regarded the purchase as an investment and am amazed that you do not. as per Wikipedia 'In general, to invest is to allocate money (or sometimes another resource, such as time) in the expectation of some benefit in the future – for example, investment in durable goods, in real estate by the service industry, in factories for manufacturing, in product development, and in research and development'
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Post by blueridge on Jan 24, 2018 10:43:20 GMT
Don't think I am an idiot, others will surely disagree, but the twelve million was surely what it cost to buy the club. That in my book is classed as an investment. Or if I am wrong in my assumption can those in the know let us know whether they were given the club for free. Bideford - Wael was quite clear on virtually Day 1 of the takeover when he stated that 'he' was not buying the club as an investment - his words. Where that leaves us or what the future holds now is anyone's guess. Many of the fans I'm sure will make their own judgement come renewal day of their season tickets. Without any form of 'vision' statement from the owners your guess is as good as anyone else with regard to where this club is going. If I recall correctly it cost just over six million to acquire the club - not twelve million.
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Post by Gasshole on Jan 24, 2018 10:45:17 GMT
She's doing requests.
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Post by gashead1981 on Jan 24, 2018 11:15:48 GMT
Peter, I am a businessman myself, (I am not saying this to show off but this is how business works for the majority) I own a couple of businesses and have taken over a couple of companies in my time as well as run companies at board level, so I think I know what I am talking about. Now when I took over a business, I made the initial purchase, that isn't classed as investment, as I have bought a going concern, whether its profitable or not, its still a going concern. That would include purchasing the shares of the existing directors, settling or restructuring the businesses finances as I see fit. At this point, , I haven't invested in anything other than my own portfolio. The going concern simply becomes my responsibility for the existing employees. The ALQ's have done exactly as above. Now if I decide to expand by building or updating additional facilities, replace, buy or maintain more equipment, hire more staff etc etc then that is investment. The money spent is an expected return at some point. I will admit there has been some investment in BRFC, but £12m worth? Really? So you cannot confuse the two. Because one is purchase and one is investment. Companies house accounts won't confuse the two, so why is it fans want to confuse the two? On that basis, Hamer could not and still hasn't ever said what or where that £12m has gone. The company filed accounts will also show that to be true or false. And covering off operating losses also isn't classed as investment, but injection. To keep the company as a going concern or quite simply, it will go bust. As someone who has owned and bought Companies in England, Europe, America and The Channel Islands (mine is bigger than yours!!) I have always regarded the purchase as an investment and am amazed that you do not. as per Wikipedia 'In general, to invest is to allocate money (or sometimes another resource, such as time) in the expectation of some benefit in the future – for example, investment in durable goods, in real estate by the service industry, in factories for manufacturing, in product development, and in research and development' Purchasing a company is not investing in the company though is it. The investment is only in the owners portfolio at that point or the owners group of companies. So you are looking at investment from the wrong perspective. Outside looking in if you like. It’s personal invesmment and nothing more. See it this way. If you purchase a business and scale it back in operation in attempt to balance the books or because it has unwanted or irrelanvant expenditure in a department, including staff, you haven’t invested in it either. You bought the right to trade as that business in attempt to make it profitable. It’s still only personal investment at that stage, because you have reduced its size. If you buy a business with existing debt and for that business to continue to operate you need to inject money in, that still isn’t investment, you are the companies overdraft and a means of trade as it continues to make a loss. Investment is growing the company through a means of value, to increase the companies book share value. So far all the ALQs have done is restructured our debt, increased our overheads and levels of loss, all of which is underwritten by Hanis bank. He is the guarantor on the companies accounts which allows it to continue to trade. That still isn’t investment. BRFC isn’t worth anymore than it was the day the ALQs took control, simply because there has been no investment which has improved return. Basic maths and business.
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Post by Midsomer Murderer on Jan 24, 2018 11:28:15 GMT
This Thread makes the Apprentice look like a bunch of geniuses
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Post by Topper Gas on Jan 24, 2018 11:51:12 GMT
Topper is looking at the facts LCJ. And as he has rightly pointed out, and unless I have missed it, there is no plans submitted for anything at the moment. You don't have to be an expert, just look at the S.Glos planning portal. Topper looked at the South Glos planning portal and decided UWE were going ahead with the stadium so you'll have to excuse my scepticism of the "facts" that he looks at. I think you missed the important "?" at the end of the thread title. Unfortunately as the local press etc showed no interest in this recent development we've no idea what the UWE were up to, the seeming plausible explanation by HG that they just intended proceeding with the car park doesn't now seem to have been the case if they have missed the cut off date, so for some unknown reason their agents did seem to be trying to keep the pp for the stadium live for a bit longer.
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Post by Topper Gas on Jan 24, 2018 11:57:32 GMT
Peter, I am a businessman myself, (I am not saying this to show off but this is how business works for the majority) I own a couple of businesses and have taken over a couple of companies in my time as well as run companies at board level, so I think I know what I am talking about. Now when I took over a business, I made the initial purchase, that isn't classed as investment, as I have bought a going concern, whether its profitable or not, its still a going concern. That would include purchasing the shares of the existing directors, settling or restructuring the businesses finances as I see fit. At this point, , I haven't invested in anything other than my own portfolio. The going concern simply becomes my responsibility for the existing employees. The ALQ's have done exactly as above. Now if I decide to expand by building or updating additional facilities, replace, buy or maintain more equipment, hire more staff etc etc then that is investment. The money spent is an expected return at some point. I will admit there has been some investment in BRFC, but £12m worth? Really? So you cannot confuse the two. Because one is purchase and one is investment. Companies house accounts won't confuse the two, so why is it fans want to confuse the two? On that basis, Hamer could not and still hasn't ever said what or where that £12m has gone. The company filed accounts will also show that to be true or false. And covering off operating losses also isn't classed as investment, but injection. To keep the company as a going concern or quite simply, it will go bust. As someone who has owned and bought Companies in England, Europe, America and The Channel Islands (mine is bigger than yours!!) I have always regarded the purchase as an investment and am amazed that you do not. as per Wikipedia 'In general, to invest is to allocate money (or sometimes another resource, such as time) in the expectation of some benefit in the future – for example, investment in durable goods, in real estate by the service industry, in factories for manufacturing, in product development, and in research and development' Do the ALQ's seriously consider they will get a return on the £12m they've apparently put into the club, if they do how are they going to achieve that as I doubt the club at present is worth anymore than the £6m they paid for it. The only way to boost the value is either get us promoted or a new ground both of which will require another massive cash injection.
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Post by LJG on Jan 24, 2018 12:00:08 GMT
Topper looked at the South Glos planning portal and decided UWE were going ahead with the stadium so you'll have to excuse my scepticism of the "facts" that he looks at. I think you missed the important "?" at the end of the thread title. Unfortunately as the local press etc showed no interest in this recent development we've no idea what the UWE were up to, the seeming plausible explanation by HG that they just intended proceeding with the car park doesn't now seem to have been the case if they have missed the cut off date, so for some unknown reason their agents did seem to be trying to keep the pp for the stadium live for a bit longer. You go for it, Topper. You'll crack the mystery yet. Your self-taught planning expertise could get you a job with the council. Don't forget to mention you've got experience googling SDLT and secured lending as well making you an expert on those issues too. Just make sure they know all advice will be caveated with the sign off "?".
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Post by gashead1981 on Jan 24, 2018 12:38:53 GMT
As someone who has owned and bought Companies in England, Europe, America and The Channel Islands (mine is bigger than yours!!) I have always regarded the purchase as an investment and am amazed that you do not. as per Wikipedia 'In general, to invest is to allocate money (or sometimes another resource, such as time) in the expectation of some benefit in the future – for example, investment in durable goods, in real estate by the service industry, in factories for manufacturing, in product development, and in research and development' Do the ALQ's seriously consider they will get a return on the £12m they've apparently put into the club, if they do how are they going to achieve that as I doubt the club at present is worth anymore than the £6m they paid for it. The only way to boost the value is either get us promoted or a new ground both of which will require another massive cash injection. Which is precisely my point Topper. So far there has been no investment other than the purchase cost of the club for ownership to transfer and the restructuring of the finances. BRFC now owe money to the ALQs rather than Wonga. The investment is only in the ALQs personal portfolio, it’s not really benefitted the club nor added any value to the club, in fact all that’s happened is our overheads have increased. There has been no investment with a view to growth so far, not £12m worth anyway. You could make a potential big return by investing big in the club (Bournemouth as an example) by giving it a greater asset value (stadium) which in turn should lead to other avenues of revenue, (commercial interests, concerts, conference and banqueting as an example) and add possibly promotion then the return will come especially if you then decide to sell on. Question is whether they are willing to invest in the club.
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Post by Topper Gas on Jan 24, 2018 13:41:06 GMT
Knowall and LJG will say that is the long term plan but there's no real evidence that is the case, not sure whether they really believe what they are saying or just like TBone with his his "clueless" comments just like to take the opposite side of the argument as they can. The fact Wael seems to now be shying away from any media interviews speaks volumes to me does he even still go to home games?
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Post by LJG on Jan 24, 2018 13:48:09 GMT
Knowall and LJG will say that is the long term plan but there's no real evidence that is the case, not sure whether they really believe what they are saying or just like TBone with his his "clueless" comments just like to take the opposite side of the argument as they can. The fact Wael seems to now be shying away from any media interviews speaks volumes to me does he even still go to home games? That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is you and plenty of others are saying that that is not the case. The formation of that opinion is based on things which have largely proved untrue: Fencing contractors unpaid without good reason - bullsh1t. Players unpaid - bullsh1t. UWE done secret deal with Lansdown/ Ed Ware / Chinese to build stadium - bullsh1t. The information base on which the judgement of mistrust towards the Al Qadi family is made is completely flawed.
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Post by baggins on Jan 24, 2018 13:49:54 GMT
40 pages on something that isn't going to happen.
Only us.
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Marshy
Proper Gas
Posts: 14,129
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Post by Marshy on Jan 24, 2018 13:51:06 GMT
Well I must say, this thread has turned into a right willy waving competition! Probably time to put it to bed mods?
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Post by gaelgas on Jan 24, 2018 13:54:24 GMT
Oh you mean like Old Trafford or Celtic Park or Villa Park, or more relevantly to us, Easter Road or Rugby Park? Easter road was every bit of a toilet as the Mem but the Hibs board redeveloped it a stand at a time and now it's a really good 20,000 seater stadium upgradable to 27,000 if they fill the corners in. What sort of footprint did they have to work with? We are already on a site with very limited ability to expand and last I heard we would have a capacity that would be capped at the 18k mark at very best with no further scope for upscaling the capacity due to nearby housing. Given that, by all accounts, it is far more expensive to build on existing stadium land than to build on a new site for that sort of increase it seems hardly worth it. Mind you, whether it happens at all is obviously anybody's guess. I would really hope we are still looking for other sites but that seems as forlorn a hope as the misplaced optimism that we were behind the attempt to pro-long the planning permission at the UWE site. I was thinking about that last time I was down at the Mem as I'd been to Easter Road a couple of weeks before that, with the existing stadium and car park I would say there is probably about 20% more room at the Mem site. If memory serves the 18,500 capacity constraints were not placed on the new stadium on considerations of space alone, and of course the previous plans included space for the halls of residence which would not be required this time. If we re-orientated the ground roughly 90 degrees the would be sufficient room to build a stadium very similar to Easter Road but without the odd cut outs at opposite corners. Configuration may need to be different but looks plausible. As for cost, well that's why Hibs did it a stand at a time, may have cost more than an empty piece of land, but spread over a longer time, and just do what you can when you can. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is ideal but it is feasible, Plymouth, Blackpool, Preston and even the great Satan down the road have done it to a greater or lesser extent, and pretty successfully.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 15:20:09 GMT
I bow to the superior knowledge of the business experts on here. However if simple commonsense was taken into account it's quite obvious to all concerned what the Chairman's statement about twelve million investment was meant to say, to the masses not the few. Rather than just call our owners out, why don't some of these business experts buy into/ invest etc etc whatever you want to call it into our beloved club and all will be rosey!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 15:27:55 GMT
I bow to the superior knowledge of the business experts on here. However if simple commonsense was taken into account it's quite obvious to all concerned what the Chairman's statement about twelve million investment was meant to say, to the masses not the few. Rather than just call our owners out, why don't some of these business experts buy into/ invest etc etc whatever you want to call it into our beloved club and all will be rosey! Hang on a minute, you’ve changed your tune haven’t you! You were outing them yourself not so long ago!
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Post by gashead1981 on Jan 24, 2018 15:52:52 GMT
Knowall and LJG will say that is the long term plan but there's no real evidence that is the case, not sure whether they really believe what they are saying or just like TBone with his his "clueless" comments just like to take the opposite side of the argument as they can. The fact Wael seems to now be shying away from any media interviews speaks volumes to me does he even still go to home games? A long term plan is ok providing you have sufficient short term infrastructure. We don't have a great infrastructure and time isn't on our side anymore, we needed a new ground 10 years ago and any further time delays will push the dream of a new stadium into the next decade.
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