|
Post by trevorgas on Nov 29, 2019 11:06:09 GMT
I understood that. I have to edit many of my own posts. Aye brain going faster than fingers and predictive text!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 11:06:39 GMT
I remember watching it live. A horrendous tragedy which everyone from the FA, football clubs and authorities learnt from. Trying to pin the whole tragedy on one man however is difficult. Culpability lies with so many people. Football was a different animal back then and I believe some of the tragedy was self inflicted by constant hooliganism which meant fences and pens were erected to keep fans in. Thankfully all the lessons of that tragedy were learned and it’s a much safer environment now. Did you write the headlines in the sun that day?sounds very much like it
|
|
|
Post by rememberhalifax on Nov 29, 2019 11:08:33 GMT
It was a very tragic day when a lot of innocent people lost there lives and no way on earth did they or there loved ones deserve what fate had in store for them, when you suffer such devastation it is natural to look for some one to blame BUT ,and I realise this will not please every one, imho it is not right or fair to point the finger at one person when there were thousands of anonymous people who are just as, and even more culpable than those trying to do a very difficult job , like it or not some of those people have carried on with there lives , still going to matches content that some one else will get the blame and the tragedy 'had nothing to do with there actions that day'. We all know what its like at The Mem on 'full house days'(remember when!)at kick off time when the bars empty and every one tries to pile in, well time that by a hundred and you have a Hillsborough on your hands, I feel for the relatives who want closure but feel some of there resentment is directed at the wrong people.
|
|
|
Post by chewbacca on Nov 29, 2019 11:32:14 GMT
Mad that some people are still drinking up thirty years of state lies. The punching down continues.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 11:32:41 GMT
Couldn`t agree less. "The court heard the chief superintendent ordered the opening of exit gates at the Leppings Lane end of the ground at 2.52pm, eight minutes before kick-off, after the area outside the turnstiles became dangerously overcrowded." If he hadn`t opened the gate, people may well have died outside the ground, and there would have been a clamour for him to be prosecuted for that. Caught between Scylla and Charybdis. This is plainly bullshit, though. Have we ever had mass deaths in a football crowd crush outside a stadium, in these sort of circumstances? You'd think from the way they express that that people die outside football grounds all the time and the only way to save them is to let them into the stadiums. It doesn't even pass the first sniff of the bullshit test. Who thinks that the way to avoid a crush is to funnel people into a more enclosed space? Caught between Scylla and Malakies. What would the reaction have been if a crush had happened outside and it came out later that Duckenfield said “although it looks like people are in danger of being crushed I’ll just sit back and do nothing as I don’t recall people ever being crushed outside a stadium before”? Another saddening aspect is that if fences were not in place everyone would have survived. Unfortunately, they were a legacy of appalling hooliganism and violence over the previous 20 years. I wonder if those hooligans (from all clubs across the UK) have any guilt that their behaviour over the previous decades were one of the biggest contributory factors in this tragedy?
|
|
|
Post by Hudson1883 on Nov 29, 2019 11:48:33 GMT
The top brass replaced a very experienced match day commander, with a very inexperienced one (Duckenfield) for this particular match. For reasons that are still unknown to this day. That being said, anyone who believe’s the solution to relieving a crowd crushing situation outside in a wide open space, is to let thousands INSIDE A FOOTBALL GROUND joining thousands of others, is quite frankly raving mad. Also throw in the knowledge said football stadium contains fences, pens & confined spaces with only one way in and one way out. Error of judgement? 96 innocent lives. Hell of a ‘mistake’.
|
|
|
Post by Antonio Fargas on Nov 29, 2019 11:49:02 GMT
What would the reaction have been if a crush had happened outside and it came out later that Duckenfield said “although it looks like people are in danger of being crushed I’ll just sit back and do nothing as I don’t recall people ever being crushed outside a stadium before”? I imagine people would say, this entirely fictional event has been dreamed up to support an excuse for a tragedy that actually happened with real people actually dying and it's quite extraordinary that events are only being played out in someone's imagination on a thread on the internet that hasn't even been invented yet to support the police's version of events that is known to be shot full of holes and actually corrupt, look out we're now being attacked by alien tripods, and Gandalf has just turned up, Duckenfield now needs to travel to Mordor with the One Ring and anyone criticising him hasn't really considered the Nazgul, luckily I've a feeling the Martians will be undone by their susceptibility to earthbound germs.
|
|
|
Post by tbonegas on Nov 29, 2019 12:07:15 GMT
If the people without tickets had stayed at home. Nobody would have been killed or injured.
|
|
|
Post by Antonio Fargas on Nov 29, 2019 12:19:56 GMT
If the people without tickets had stayed at home. Nobody would have been killed or injured. The Taylor Report dismissed the theory, put forward by South Yorkshire Police, that fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forged tickets were contributing factors. To be fair, though, Taylor never said Gandalf wasn't responsible, so there's another fairy tale you might wanna try.
|
|
|
Post by Henbury Gas on Nov 29, 2019 12:43:05 GMT
If the people without tickets had stayed at home. Nobody would have been killed or injured. The Taylor Report dismissed the theory, put forward by South Yorkshire Police, that fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forged tickets were contributing factors. To be fair, though, Taylor never said Gandalf wasn't responsible, so there's another fairy tale you might wanna try. I think you need to seek help
|
|
|
Post by William Wilson on Nov 29, 2019 12:46:35 GMT
Looking at footage of what was happening outside the turnstiles, anybody would have been concerned that fatalities might well happen. Just because it hadn`t happened before, doesn`t mean that it might not have been the first. Duckenfield had a matter of minutes to ponder his decision, not the benefit of thirty years of hindsight. So he had two minutes to invent a completely unique event that had never happened and has never happened since, and to act on that? I'm not saying he's guilty of anything, I've no idea, and haven't been following the trial closely, but just making up an imaginary event that doesn't pass the sniff test, isn't clarifying anything, and isn't helping anything, it's just piling another level of bullshit on levels of bullshit that the authorities have felt the need to pile on since pretty much the moment it happened. No idea why a football fan would want to help the authorities in piling on that bullshit, either. An imaginary event? In the early 80s, I went to watch Scotland play Wales at Ninian Park, in a home international fixture. The crush outside the turnstiles was as bad as I`d experienced before or since. Fans near the front were clambering over the turnstiles, and dropping down into the ground on the other side. People were pleading with the mounted police officers to get the gates open, as they were starting to fear for their lives. It`s easy enough to sit behind your computer and say that nobody has ever died in a crush outside a football stadium, but it`s different when you`re in that crush, or when you have responsibility to do something about it. Things don`t seem so black and white then. The policeman in charge made the same call as Duckenfield. He opened the gates, and let everybody in. I`ll always believe it was the right call. Looking at your last sentence; do you think that a football fan should automatically take an anti authority viewpoint? Football fan or not, I`d take each case on it`s merits, regardless of whether it helps the authorities or not.
|
|
|
Post by Antonio Fargas on Nov 29, 2019 12:55:18 GMT
The Taylor Report dismissed the theory, put forward by South Yorkshire Police, that fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forged tickets were contributing factors. To be fair, though, Taylor never said Gandalf wasn't responsible, so there's another fairy tale you might wanna try. I think you need to seek help Why's that?
|
|
|
Post by Antonio Fargas on Nov 29, 2019 13:01:11 GMT
So he had two minutes to invent a completely unique event that had never happened and has never happened since, and to act on that? I'm not saying he's guilty of anything, I've no idea, and haven't been following the trial closely, but just making up an imaginary event that doesn't pass the sniff test, isn't clarifying anything, and isn't helping anything, it's just piling another level of bullshit on levels of bullshit that the authorities have felt the need to pile on since pretty much the moment it happened. No idea why a football fan would want to help the authorities in piling on that bullshit, either. An imaginary event? In the early 80s, I went to watch Scotland play Wales at Ninian Park, in a home international fixture. The crush outside the turnstiles was as bad as I`d experienced before or since. Fans near the front were clambering over the turnstiles, and dropping down into the ground on the other side. People were pleading with the mounted police officers to get the gates open, as they were starting to fear for their lives. It`s easy enough to sit behind your computer and say that nobody has ever died in a crush outside a football stadium, but it`s different when you`re in that crush, or when you have responsibility to do something about it. Things don`t seem so black and white then. The policeman in charge made the same call as Duckenfield. He opened the gates, and let everybody in. I`ll always believe it was the right call. Looking at your last sentence; do you think that a football fan should automatically take an anti authority viewpoint? Football fan or not, I`d take each case on it`s merits, regardless of whether it helps the authorities or not. I specifically said I wasn't commenting on Druckenfield. I was commenting on how ready people are to support, the already debunked, police version. Did you not notice how many lies the police told over this. Did you not notice their slanderous smokescreen? Yet you're still backing them. To be honest, I didn't think, and I had no reason to believe, the police were lying at the time. And I didn't automatically take an anti-authoritarian viewpoint, but since then we have been given plenty of reasons to dismiss anything they have to say in their defence. Not sure why you're so determined to back them, though. If you genuinely think you're taking stuff on its merits, then I'll leave you to it.
|
|
|
Post by Henbury Gas on Nov 29, 2019 13:03:52 GMT
I think you need to seek help Why's that? Like me you spend way to much time on here and talk about things nobody understands
|
|
|
Post by Antonio Fargas on Nov 29, 2019 13:04:18 GMT
Like me you spend way to much time on here and talk about things nobody understands The bright kids at the back understand; you can carry on cutting up the shiny paper with the plastic scissors.
|
|
|
Post by Henbury Gas on Nov 29, 2019 13:05:36 GMT
Like me you spend way to much time on here and talk about things nobody understands The bright kids at the back understand; you can carry on cutting up the shiny paper with the plastic scissors. How far back do you need to go back to understand yiddish
|
|
|
Post by Antonio Fargas on Nov 29, 2019 13:09:25 GMT
The bright kids at the back understand; you can carry on cutting up the shiny paper with the plastic scissors. How far back do you need to go back to understand yiddish Well, you've lost me there. Pass me the scissors.
|
|
|
Post by althepirate on Nov 29, 2019 13:28:51 GMT
IMHO people who lied should go to jail for perverting the course of justice. For me this is worse than making an instant decision that goes wrong, lies are deliberate. The Sun should be razed to the ground.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 13:51:59 GMT
What would the reaction have been if a crush had happened outside and it came out later that Duckenfield said “although it looks like people are in danger of being crushed I’ll just sit back and do nothing as I don’t recall people ever being crushed outside a stadium before”? I imagine people would say, this entirely fictional event has been dreamed up to support an excuse for a tragedy that actually happened with real people actually dying and it's quite extraordinary that events are only being played out in someone's imagination on a thread on the internet that hasn't even been invented yet to support the police's version of events that is known to be shot full of holes and actually corrupt, look out we're now being attacked by alien tripods, and Gandalf has just turned up, Duckenfield now needs to travel to Mordor with the One Ring and anyone criticising him hasn't really considered the Nazgul, luckily I've a feeling the Martians will be undone by their susceptibility to earthbound germs. Who is trying to make an excuse for this tragedy? Everyone knows the police acted appallingly - mainly in the immediate aftermath when they sought to manipulate the evidence, lay blame on supporters and feed lies to the tabloids. The point i was making was that it must have been a horrible decision for an individual to make when you see the supporters all trying to get in and people being crushed. Obviously the decision he made played a part in what unfolded and he has belatedly been brought before a court to have his actions judged. Who knows how things would have unfolded if he had made a different decision.
|
|
|
Post by darkbluegas on Nov 29, 2019 13:54:46 GMT
Its fairly clear that after 31 years opinions are still very divided. Some people's views will be based on their understanding of the case from Media coverage alone whilst some may draw on their experience of attending football matches in the 70's and 80's. It would appear to me though that the Match Commander was attempting to manage an almost unmanageable situation. That was due to the infrastructure in place at the time and the behaviour of the people in attendance. That doesn't mean their bad behaviour or level of culpability, it just means the behaviour of people in a crowd. At the time the crowd were attempting to gain entry to the ground confusion and panic must have been rife.
Dunkenfield has been tried three times now and has not been found guilty of criminal behavior. Jurors made up of, his and our peers, having listened to weeks of detailed evidence have arrived at that decision. Sometimes terrible things happen and we want to identify someone as being responsible. In this case many people behaved in ways that could be partially culpable but now we will never untangle the events to establish blame.
The lessons have been learned and the world has moved on. The death of innocent fans has, at least, made attending big sporting events a safer place for us and our loved ones.
|
|