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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 13:55:40 GMT
IMHO people who lied should go to jail for perverting the course of justice. For me this is worse than making an instant decision that goes wrong, lies are deliberate. The Sun should be razed to the ground. Probably. I wonder if there was ever a chance of Duckenfield being convicted for manslaughter? Would the CPS have let it run if wasn’t such an emotive and high profile case? Maybe they should have went with lesser charges that would have had more chance of succeeding?
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 29, 2019 13:58:14 GMT
I imagine people would say, this entirely fictional event has been dreamed up to support an excuse for a tragedy that actually happened with real people actually dying and it's quite extraordinary that events are only being played out in someone's imagination on a thread on the internet that hasn't even been invented yet to support the police's version of events that is known to be shot full of holes and actually corrupt, look out we're now being attacked by alien tripods, and Gandalf has just turned up, Duckenfield now needs to travel to Mordor with the One Ring and anyone criticising him hasn't really considered the Nazgul, luckily I've a feeling the Martians will be undone by their susceptibility to earthbound germs. Who is trying to make an excuse for this tragedy? Everyone knows the police acted appallingly - mainly in the immediate aftermath when they sought to manipulate the evidence, lay blame on supporters and feed lies to the tabloids. The point i was making was that it must have been a horrible decision for an individual to make when you see the supporters all trying to get in and people being crushed. Obviously the decision he made played a part in what unfolded and he has belatedly been brought before a court to have his actions judged. Who knows how things would have unfolded if he had made a different decision. Agree with a lot of this but don't agree it was an " instant decision" , surely there would have been scenario planning for an event of this size and if there wasn't he's even more culpable
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Post by althepirate on Nov 29, 2019 14:05:53 GMT
In hindsight the fences to stop pitch invasions was the major cause of this tradegy.
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Post by althepirate on Nov 29, 2019 14:11:11 GMT
One can only hope that man’s soul has been tortured every single day/night since that horrific afternoon. I expect he tortured himself. Just a wrong decision nothing he should go to hell for. The lies, cover ups and manipulations are worse imo.
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Post by Antonio Fargas on Nov 29, 2019 14:13:08 GMT
I imagine people would say, this entirely fictional event has been dreamed up to support an excuse for a tragedy that actually happened with real people actually dying and it's quite extraordinary that events are only being played out in someone's imagination on a thread on the internet that hasn't even been invented yet to support the police's version of events that is known to be shot full of holes and actually corrupt, look out we're now being attacked by alien tripods, and Gandalf has just turned up, Duckenfield now needs to travel to Mordor with the One Ring and anyone criticising him hasn't really considered the Nazgul, luckily I've a feeling the Martians will be undone by their susceptibility to earthbound germs. Who is trying to make an excuse for this tragedy? Everyone knows the police acted appallingly - mainly in the immediate aftermath when they sought to manipulate the evidence, lay blame on supporters and feed lies to the tabloids. The point i was making was that it must have been a horrible decision for an individual to make when you see the supporters all trying to get in and people being crushed. Obviously the decision he made played a part in what unfolded and he has belatedly been brought before a court to have his actions judged. Who knows how things would have unfolded if he had made a different decision. I agree no one knows what would have happened. So why make up a load of stuff about people being hurt outside that didn't happen, and never really happens. Why make up pure fantasy stuff like that?
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Post by oldgas on Nov 29, 2019 15:13:32 GMT
The point is that the blame can't, and shouldn't be laid at any one individuals door.
The sad fact is that this was the perfect storm. The highly successful Liverpool were for some strange reason given the smaller of the 2 end stands The stadium had seen better days but was still licenced to hold a vast number of people despite that fact that the safety certificate has lapsed (I believe)
There can be no doubt that thousands of fans without tickets arrived at the stadium just prior to K/O, hopeful that they would be let in. When they were they surged into the pens, where, quite disgracefully they were fenced in like animals because of the trouble at football grounds in that period of time.
The result was tragic and awful. There was an attempt to lay the official blame solely with the fans, which was awful and quite clearly wrong. There was blame attached to every party in this disaster, but that has never been recognised or openly investigated properly.
The families will never be satisfied, and we can't really expect them to be. If anything good has come out of this disaster then that is to the benefit of everyone who goes to football. Look at the magnificent stadia around the country now. If there hadn't been the Taylor report I doubt if things would have moved so fast or so well. Without the ramifications of that report, a stadium like ours would probably have a capacity of 18,000 or more.
I don't think that would be comfortable or safe, do you?
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Post by Antonio Fargas on Nov 29, 2019 15:17:33 GMT
There can be no doubt that thousands of fans without tickets arrived at the stadium just prior to K/O, hopeful that they would be let in. Myth 1: Liverpool fans arrived 'late and without tickets' After the disaster, allegations emerged from "unnamed sources" - later established to be a Police Federation spokesman and the Sheffield Conservative MP, Irvine Patnick - claiming Liverpool supporters had "deliberately arrived late determined to force entry" to the ground. What we know: While many Liverpool supporters did arrive after 14.30, evidence to the inquests suggested it was actually the police "failure to control the crowd" and "inadequate" turnstiles that led to the fatal crush. The claim that fans had "deliberately arrived late" formed the basis of the "rock solid" defence South Yorkshire Police [SYP] sought to present at the 1989 Taylor inquiry into the disaster. The aim was to "deflect blame on to supporters" and exonerate the police. The jury heard from former South Yorkshire Police inspector Clive Davis who recalled being told by former Ch Supt Terry Wain "to put the blame for this disaster where it belongs: on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans". This was denied in evidence by Mr Wain. However, he admitted a report he prepared had exaggerated claims that "several thousand" spectators had arrived at the ground within minutes of kick-off. The inquests heard the 10,100 fans with standing tickets for the Leppings Lane end were expected to enter through just seven turnstiles, causing congestion outside the ground. Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, concluded fans were reasonable to arrive between 14.30 and 14.40 as match tickets only requested people be in their places "15 minutes before the game". He was also satisfied that the large concentration of fans who gathered Leppings Lane at 14.40 to 14.50 "did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan". He concluded that police had "failed" to prepare for controlling the arrival of a large number of fans in a short period. Both the club and police "should have realised the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it" unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period. He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster". The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground. What the jury said: The behaviour of Liverpool supporters did not cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732
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Post by chewbacca on Nov 29, 2019 15:54:35 GMT
There can be no doubt that thousands of fans without tickets arrived at the stadium just prior to K/O, hopeful that they would be let in. Myth 1: Liverpool fans arrived 'late and without tickets' After the disaster, allegations emerged from "unnamed sources" - later established to be a Police Federation spokesman and the Sheffield Conservative MP, Irvine Patnick - claiming Liverpool supporters had "deliberately arrived late determined to force entry" to the ground. What we know: While many Liverpool supporters did arrive after 14.30, evidence to the inquests suggested it was actually the police "failure to control the crowd" and "inadequate" turnstiles that led to the fatal crush. The claim that fans had "deliberately arrived late" formed the basis of the "rock solid" defence South Yorkshire Police [SYP] sought to present at the 1989 Taylor inquiry into the disaster. The aim was to "deflect blame on to supporters" and exonerate the police. The jury heard from former South Yorkshire Police inspector Clive Davis who recalled being told by former Ch Supt Terry Wain "to put the blame for this disaster where it belongs: on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans". This was denied in evidence by Mr Wain. However, he admitted a report he prepared had exaggerated claims that "several thousand" spectators had arrived at the ground within minutes of kick-off. The inquests heard the 10,100 fans with standing tickets for the Leppings Lane end were expected to enter through just seven turnstiles, causing congestion outside the ground. Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, concluded fans were reasonable to arrive between 14.30 and 14.40 as match tickets only requested people be in their places "15 minutes before the game". He was also satisfied that the large concentration of fans who gathered Leppings Lane at 14.40 to 14.50 "did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan". He concluded that police had "failed" to prepare for controlling the arrival of a large number of fans in a short period. Both the club and police "should have realised the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it" unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period. He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster". The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground. What the jury said: The behaviour of Liverpool supporters did not cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732Incredibly embarrassing the level of bootlicking by some folk on here.
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Post by gregsy on Nov 29, 2019 17:11:58 GMT
Hopefully, there will at some point be a way in which the justice system can do what its meant to do here.... Its all been 30 years of kangaroo....
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Post by lpgas on Nov 29, 2019 17:36:43 GMT
I remember watching this and the Liverpool fans were getting through the turnstiles but some were jumping over them. then they went in to the all ready packed (middle) of the terrace. There were stewards / police trying to get them to go to the sides but most were pushing down the middle of the terrace. Whilst any loss of life at an event is regrettable this certainly has gone on far too long. I also feel that Liverpool play the "victims" too much. The fans that died were ultimately killed by fellow fans, who were pushing their way on to the terrace, and lets face it, at that time they had a bit of a reputation, and they were solely responsible for starting the trouble at Heysel, a fact that is forgotten
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 17:41:05 GMT
here we go then
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Post by gregsy on Nov 29, 2019 17:42:52 GMT
I remember watching this and the Liverpool fans were getting through the turnstiles but some were jumping over them. then they went in to the all ready packed (middle) of the terrace. There were stewards / police trying to get them to go to the sides but most were pushing down the middle of the terrace. Whilst any loss of life at an event is regrettable this certainly has gone on far too long. I also feel that Liverpool play the "victims" too much. The fans that died were ultimately killed by fellow fans, who were pushing their way on to the terrace, and lets face it, at that time they had a bit of a reputation, and they were solely responsible for starting the trouble at Heysel, a fact that is forgotten Hmmmmmm.... So a few not so relevant facts should get in the way of the 'fact' that 96 people are dead and their friends and families are given zero justice?
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Post by Hudson1883 on Nov 29, 2019 17:47:01 GMT
I remember watching this and the Liverpool fans were getting through the turnstiles but some were jumping over them. then they went in to the all ready packed (middle) of the terrace. There were stewards / police trying to get them to go to the sides but most were pushing down the middle of the terrace. Whilst any loss of life at an event is regrettable this certainly has gone on far too long. I also feel that Liverpool play the "victims" too much. The fans that died were ultimately killed by fellow fans, who were pushing their way on to the terrace, and lets face it, at that time they had a bit of a reputation, and they were solely responsible for starting the trouble at Heysel, a fact that is forgotten Quite literally, no one was ‘guiding’ them to go anywhere. Fences were opened and it was a free for all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 18:12:09 GMT
Who is trying to make an excuse for this tragedy? Everyone knows the police acted appallingly - mainly in the immediate aftermath when they sought to manipulate the evidence, lay blame on supporters and feed lies to the tabloids. The point i was making was that it must have been a horrible decision for an individual to make when you see the supporters all trying to get in and people being crushed. Obviously the decision he made played a part in what unfolded and he has belatedly been brought before a court to have his actions judged. Who knows how things would have unfolded if he had made a different decision. Agree with a lot of this but don't agree it was an " instant decision" , surely there would have been scenario planning for an event of this size and if there wasn't he's even more culpable I recall hearing there was a near similar occurrence when Tottenham played a semi final at Hillsborough a few years earlier and fans in the Leppings Lane end were lucky not to be crushed to death. Clearly no lessons were learnt. I’ve no idea whether Duckenfield was involved for that game?
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Post by althepirate on Nov 29, 2019 19:49:54 GMT
I have always found that day to be an extremely emotional one because I am a football fan and I have, like I think we all have, huge amounts of empathy with every fan involved that day. I also have extreme anger at the attitude of the authorities towards football fans at the time. These attitudes were that 'if you were a football fan, you were a hooligan so we will treat you ALL like animals and penn you in like animals. For me this attitude with the fences to stop pitch invasions were the cause of 96 fans losing their lives. The police did not understand football fans in the same way they didn't understand other sections of society such as ethnic minorities and hippy festival goers. Their job was to police the whole country but they had a small minded village attitude with which to do it. The police saw exhuberance and enthusiasm as hostility. We all know if we are outside and the game has kicked off we are desperate to get inside asap. The police would see this as hooliganism and not enthusiasm. If they understood this they would have delayed the kick off. Then when they got it wrong they would lie and cheat their way out of it. Despicable behaviour under the guise of authortarian respectability. I think this is why such venom is directed towards the police over such a long period. Injustice can be a great motivator.
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Post by gashead1981 on Nov 29, 2019 20:29:09 GMT
I remember watching it live. A horrendous tragedy which everyone from the FA, football clubs and authorities learnt from. Trying to pin the whole tragedy on one man however is difficult. Culpability lies with so many people. Football was a different animal back then and I believe some of the tragedy was self inflicted by constant hooliganism which meant fences and pens were erected to keep fans in. Thankfully all the lessons of that tragedy were learned and it’s a much safer environment now. Did you write the headlines in the sun that day?sounds very much like it
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 21:20:38 GMT
I remember watching this and the Liverpool fans were getting through the turnstiles but some were jumping over them. then they went in to the all ready packed (middle) of the terrace. There were stewards / police trying to get them to go to the sides but most were pushing down the middle of the terrace. Whilst any loss of life at an event is regrettable this certainly has gone on far too long. I also feel that Liverpool play the "victims" too much. The fans that died were ultimately killed by fellow fans, who were pushing their way on to the terrace, and lets face it, at that time they had a bit of a reputation, and they were solely responsible for starting the trouble at Heysel, a fact that is forgotten If only you were called to the witness stand it would have completely altered the findings of the hillsborough inquiry.
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Post by mjg on Nov 29, 2019 21:37:09 GMT
I remember watching this and the Liverpool fans were getting through the turnstiles but some were jumping over them. then they went in to the all ready packed (middle) of the terrace. There were stewards / police trying to get them to go to the sides but most were pushing down the middle of the terrace. Whilst any loss of life at an event is regrettable this certainly has gone on far too long. I also feel that Liverpool play the "victims" too much. The fans that died were ultimately killed by fellow fans, who were pushing their way on to the terrace, and lets face it, at that time they had a bit of a reputation, and they were solely responsible for starting the trouble at Heysel, a fact that is forgotten Ah well, if you'd only been given the chance to present your evidence, from your watching of it on the telly, to the Taylor report and the independent enquiry and the inquest. Just imagine eh, all 3 of the outcomes might have been so different.
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Post by badengas on Nov 29, 2019 22:38:53 GMT
Is standing inherently dangerous ? I spent last night reliving my youth with 7000 plus others in Cardiff last night watching the Chemical Brothers, some were drunk and a few violent. The crowd collectively sorted problems or helped as required.
I don't claim to know the answers to Hillsborough but looking after each other plays a part.
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Post by gasheadontour on Nov 29, 2019 23:12:59 GMT
In those days football fans were treated as third-class citizens and regarded as scum by the Tories and newspapers. The snobbery from the right-wing politicians and media was appalling. Seriously, people were looked down upon for liking the game of football.
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