pirate
Forum Legend
Posts: 18,765
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Post by pirate on Dec 1, 2019 10:09:53 GMT
I know he was a dangerous C###. Good enough? You mean a Russian communist? He was German.
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Post by curlywurly on Dec 1, 2019 10:10:09 GMT
Do you write for the Sun oldgas?
FFS, pay attention to what has been said at the inquest and trial.
There was a complete cover up by the South Yorkshire police, by the West Midlands police who 'investigated' them, by the Thatcher government and the Murdoch press. The unwarranted vilification of the Liverpool supporters who were the victims was a disgrace.
Duckenfield's complete incompetence on the day, compounded by the systematic campaign of lies thereafter are a massive shadow on the police and our game.
I'm no police hater, but the truth about those events has to dent confidence.
It would appear you are at odds with the jury then. In my original post I expressed the opinion that there were too many factors on that dreadful day for the blame to be laid at one persons door. That's all I said. The extra sad thing is that the 97 victims in this tragedy would have been in the stadium for some time before the tunnel surge. They were at the front of the pen and so had nowhere to go. Because they were fenced in, as a response to constant pitch invasions, they were unable to escape the crush. The ordinary Bobbies who were pitch side of the fences could only look on in helpless horror as the tragedy unfolded. Were those poor blokes complicit in the stitch-up to which you refer? And no, I don't write for The Sun, which is a comic not a newspaper. Yes. On the balance of the evidence that I have heard, I do disagree with the verdict arrived at by the jury. That is what one needs to accept with our legal system, that it comes down to the opinion of the jury. Having been involved in that process, I understand how frustrating and difficult it can be.
I do accept that Hillsborough and the aftermath was a culmination of events brought on by escalating violence in football. It was also a result of a police culture where they would not accept or learn from their own failings and felt that it was acceptable to play fast and loose with the truth to suit their own purposes, rather than in service of justice.
I have great sympathy for the difficult job that they do, but were the ordinary bobbies involves in the stitch up? I am afraid that many of them were in colluding in false statements and the treatment of victims families in the immediate aftermath. There were notable exceptions to this and the cover up was greater as you went up the ranks - more is the shame.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 12:35:05 GMT
You mean a Russian communist? He was German. Thanks west it was aimed at finding out what old gas knew about him I was setting a trap and you have sprung it
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Marshy
Proper Gas
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Post by Marshy on Dec 1, 2019 12:41:50 GMT
Thanks west it was aimed at finding out what old gas knew about him I was setting a trap and you have sprung it Ah, lemon entry my dear Watson.
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Post by Kingswood Polak on Dec 1, 2019 14:08:03 GMT
Hope you dont use the NHS being so anti labour If you think those Marxists will do anything other than bankrupt the country and in the process destroy the NHS then you need to read critical analysis of their manifesto and watch Corbyn and McDonnell in action during interviews. To say nothing of Dianne Abbot and Emily Thornberry. The first would be in charge of the Police and national security. Abbot! F### me! If you believe their lies you'll believe anything. Dear God. Please stop bringing up politics on a football forum. I’m sure there are other areas to do this.
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Post by Kingswood Polak on Dec 1, 2019 14:20:30 GMT
Do you write for the Sun oldgas?
FFS, pay attention to what has been said at the inquest and trial.
There was a complete cover up by the South Yorkshire police, by the West Midlands police who 'investigated' them, by the Thatcher government and the Murdoch press. The unwarranted vilification of the Liverpool supporters who were the victims was a disgrace.
Duckenfield's complete incompetence on the day, compounded by the systematic campaign of lies thereafter are a massive shadow on the police and our game.
I'm no police hater, but the truth about those events has to dent confidence.
It would appear you are at odds with the jury then. In my original post I expressed the opinion that there were too many factors on that dreadful day for the blame to be laid at one persons door. That's all I said. The extra sad thing is that the 97 victims in this tragedy would have been in the stadium for some time before the tunnel surge. They were at the front of the pen and so had nowhere to go. Because they were fenced in, as a response to constant pitch invasions, they were unable to escape the crush. The ordinary Bobbies who were pitch side of the fences could only look on in helpless horror as the tragedy unfolded. Were those poor blokes complicit in the stitch-up to which you refer? And no, I don't write for The Sun, which is a comic not a newspaper. So, who made the decision to stop ambulances getting to the dying, a fair few could have been saved if they had been given oxygen and treatment. It is so hard to read such stuff and I am not even a relative. Police were told to rip up notebooks and some wouldn’t. To still be denying this awful affair is totally beyond me. I have to leave it at that as it really is getting me wound up, I can only imagine how the relatives feel, when they see similar content.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 16:20:38 GMT
It would appear you are at odds with the jury then. In my original post I expressed the opinion that there were too many factors on that dreadful day for the blame to be laid at one persons door. That's all I said. The extra sad thing is that the 97 victims in this tragedy would have been in the stadium for some time before the tunnel surge. They were at the front of the pen and so had nowhere to go. Because they were fenced in, as a response to constant pitch invasions, they were unable to escape the crush. The ordinary Bobbies who were pitch side of the fences could only look on in helpless horror as the tragedy unfolded. Were those poor blokes complicit in the stitch-up to which you refer? And no, I don't write for The Sun, which is a comic not a newspaper. Yes. On the balance of the evidence that I have heard, I do disagree with the verdict arrived at by the jury. That is what one needs to accept with our legal system, that it comes down to the opinion of the jury. Having been involved in that process, I understand how frustrating and difficult it can be.
I do accept that Hillsborough and the aftermath was a culmination of events brought on by escalating violence in football. It was also a result of a police culture where they would not accept or learn from their own failings and felt that it was acceptable to play fast and loose with the truth to suit their own purposes, rather than in service of justice.
I have great sympathy for the difficult job that they do, but were the ordinary bobbies involves in the stitch up? I am afraid that many of them were in colluding in false statements and the treatment of victims families in the immediate aftermath. There were notable exceptions to this and the cover up was greater as you went up the ranks - more is the shame.
I think we have to respect the jury decision and they will have been selected from various walks of life. They will have had access to far more than us and seen evidence and witness questioning first hand rather than what was reported in the media. They will also have been given direction by the judge in respect of the required tariff required for a manslaughter conviction. I don’t think any of the jury will have been ‘got at’ for want of a better phrase or been part of some establishment conspiracy. Perhaps there should have been a lesser charge (I’m not qualified to say what) which would have been easier to secure a conviction? Duckenfield was just one of many police officers who should have been bought to account for both their actions on the day and even more so in their actions in the immediate aftermath.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 16:25:33 GMT
Still the most read daily newspaper outside the free Metro And that makes it right for the lies they peddled at the time? UTG! The stories they printed were quickly discredited. I can’t remember the exact headlines but were they not based on what they were being directly told by the police? I don’t like the written press and wouldn’t trust any journalist and when stories are self fabricated they are rightly called out but would it not be reasonable to believe information being provided by senior police sources?
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Post by curlywurly on Dec 1, 2019 16:56:26 GMT
Yes. On the balance of the evidence that I have heard, I do disagree with the verdict arrived at by the jury. That is what one needs to accept with our legal system, that it comes down to the opinion of the jury. Having been involved in that process, I understand how frustrating and difficult it can be.
I do accept that Hillsborough and the aftermath was a culmination of events brought on by escalating violence in football. It was also a result of a police culture where they would not accept or learn from their own failings and felt that it was acceptable to play fast and loose with the truth to suit their own purposes, rather than in service of justice.
I have great sympathy for the difficult job that they do, but were the ordinary bobbies involves in the stitch up? I am afraid that many of them were in colluding in false statements and the treatment of victims families in the immediate aftermath. There were notable exceptions to this and the cover up was greater as you went up the ranks - more is the shame.
I think we have to respect the jury decision and they will have been selected from various walks of life. They will have had access to far more than us and seen evidence and witness questioning first hand rather than what was reported in the media. They will also have been given direction by the judge in respect of the required tariff required for a manslaughter conviction. I don’t think any of the jury will have been ‘got at’ for want of a better phrase or been part of some establishment conspiracy. Perhaps there should have been a lesser charge (I’m not qualified to say what) which would have been easier to secure a conviction? Duckenfield was just one of many police officers who should have been bought to account for both their actions on the day and even more so in their actions in the immediate aftermath. I didn't for one moment suggest that the jury had been got at. I was only suggesting that the process is one that can, on occasions give rise to decisions that another 12 people might not have given the same evidence and direction.
I agree that, based on the information that has been made public, there should be some lesser charges relating to the perversion of justice
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 17:21:48 GMT
I think we have to respect the jury decision and they will have been selected from various walks of life. They will have had access to far more than us and seen evidence and witness questioning first hand rather than what was reported in the media. They will also have been given direction by the judge in respect of the required tariff required for a manslaughter conviction. I don’t think any of the jury will have been ‘got at’ for want of a better phrase or been part of some establishment conspiracy. Perhaps there should have been a lesser charge (I’m not qualified to say what) which would have been easier to secure a conviction? Duckenfield was just one of many police officers who should have been bought to account for both their actions on the day and even more so in their actions in the immediate aftermath. I didn't for one moment suggest that the jury had been got at. I was only suggesting that the process is one that can, on occasions give rise to decisions that another 12 people might not have given the same evidence and direction.
I agree that, based on the information that has been made public, there should be some lesser charges relating to the perversion of justice Sorry my phrase and not intended to imply something you said or thought. Just heard a lot this week about miscarriage of justice, ongoing cover up etc when it’s clearly a lot more complicated than that. I don’t think the families will ever get what they want here and no one or number of people will ever be confirmed as the guilty party in respect of causing the unlawful deaths found by the inquest. Unfortunately the situation has gone on for so long and the victims families have never been able to move on with their lives.
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Post by lpgas on Dec 6, 2019 16:51:34 GMT
The Sheffield Disaster comes up every year, however Bradford City, Rangers and Heysel are mostly ignored. And lets remember it was the behaviour of the Liverpool fans that was the reason for most of the trouble at Heysel, culminating in English clubs being banned from Euro competitions
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 17:43:24 GMT
The Sheffield Disaster comes up every year, however Bradford City, Rangers and Heysel are mostly ignored. And lets remember it was the behaviour of the Liverpool fans that was the reason for most of the trouble at Heysel, culminating in English clubs being banned from Euro competitions Interestingly in the case of Heysel, the head of Belgium football, the two senior police officers at the stadium and 14 Liverpool supporters were all found guilty of various charges. Says it all when our so called legal system has failed to deliver a verdict that gives closure to the victims and their families of the Hillsborough disaster.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 18:10:48 GMT
The Sheffield Disaster comes up every year, however Bradford City, Rangers and Heysel are mostly ignored. And lets remember it was the behaviour of the Liverpool fans that was the reason for most of the trouble at Heysel, culminating in English clubs being banned from Euro competitions Yet not a mentioned of the Italian fan shown walking around the perimeter with a hand gun
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Post by althepirate on Dec 6, 2019 18:24:16 GMT
The Sheffield Disaster comes up every year, however Bradford City, Rangers and Heysel are mostly ignored. And lets remember it was the behaviour of the Liverpool fans that was the reason for most of the trouble at Heysel, culminating in English clubs being banned from Euro competitions Yet not a mentioned of the Italian fan shown walking around the perimeter with a hand gun It was a starting pistol and race related 😊
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Post by gregsy on Dec 6, 2019 19:06:20 GMT
Absolutely astonishing that at any football match let alone a European cup final can 39 people die, 600 are injured and they still play the game.... WTF
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 19:11:17 GMT
Absolutely astonishing that at any football match let alone a European cup final can 39 people die, 600 are injured and they still play the game.... WTF Unbelievable but true, with the majority of the 39 dead lying under a retaining wall that had collapsed on them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 19:17:49 GMT
Yet not a mentioned of the Italian fan shown walking around the perimeter with a hand gun It was a starting pistol and race related 😊 Regardless it was a gun and tell me how he got that into the ground
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Post by althepirate on Dec 6, 2019 20:55:25 GMT
It was a starting pistol and race related 😊 Regardless it was a gun and tell me how he got that into the ground It was a joke Padstow, starting pistol/race
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Post by 1986gashead on Dec 7, 2019 9:07:55 GMT
I don’t know as much as I probably should on the details of this subject but it says in the original 2015 case he admitted to opening the gates and didn’t he admit it was a mistake?? I read the article yesterday so somebody feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. I also find it strange how another man was held accountably for not providing enough turnstiles and was fined 5k... really? 5k..
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