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Post by lympstonegas on Nov 30, 2019 0:14:33 GMT
IMHO people who lied should go to jail for perverting the course of justice. For me this is worse than making an instant decision that goes wrong, lies are deliberate. The Sun should be razed to the ground. Still the most read daily newspaper outside the free Metro
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Post by oldgas on Nov 30, 2019 8:53:27 GMT
There can be no doubt that thousands of fans without tickets arrived at the stadium just prior to K/O, hopeful that they would be let in. Myth 1: Liverpool fans arrived 'late and without tickets' After the disaster, allegations emerged from "unnamed sources" - later established to be a Police Federation spokesman and the Sheffield Conservative MP, Irvine Patnick - claiming Liverpool supporters had "deliberately arrived late determined to force entry" to the ground. What we know: While many Liverpool supporters did arrive after 14.30, evidence to the inquests suggested it was actually the police "failure to control the crowd" and "inadequate" turnstiles that led to the fatal crush. The claim that fans had "deliberately arrived late" formed the basis of the "rock solid" defence South Yorkshire Police [SYP] sought to present at the 1989 Taylor inquiry into the disaster. The aim was to "deflect blame on to supporters" and exonerate the police. The jury heard from former South Yorkshire Police inspector Clive Davis who recalled being told by former Ch Supt Terry Wain "to put the blame for this disaster where it belongs: on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans". This was denied in evidence by Mr Wain. However, he admitted a report he prepared had exaggerated claims that "several thousand" spectators had arrived at the ground within minutes of kick-off. The inquests heard the 10,100 fans with standing tickets for the Leppings Lane end were expected to enter through just seven turnstiles, causing congestion outside the ground. Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, concluded fans were reasonable to arrive between 14.30 and 14.40 as match tickets only requested people be in their places "15 minutes before the game". He was also satisfied that the large concentration of fans who gathered Leppings Lane at 14.40 to 14.50 "did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan". He concluded that police had "failed" to prepare for controlling the arrival of a large number of fans in a short period. Both the club and police "should have realised the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it" unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period. He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster". The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground. What the jury said: The behaviour of Liverpool supporters did not cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732Quite obviously one of the avowed a Police haters that enjoy sniping form behind his keyboard. I thought you would have a pop and lo and behold, so predictable. I know what I believe and if you believe there were only a few ticketless fans and that everyone was stone cold sober then you are a gullible fool. I wonder how you would cope if you were a Police a Officer? You probably vote Labour as well.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 8:54:36 GMT
IMHO people who lied should go to jail for perverting the course of justice. For me this is worse than making an instant decision that goes wrong, lies are deliberate. The Sun should be razed to the ground. Still the most read daily newspaper outside the free Metro But not in liverpool
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 9:45:42 GMT
Myth 1: Liverpool fans arrived 'late and without tickets' After the disaster, allegations emerged from "unnamed sources" - later established to be a Police Federation spokesman and the Sheffield Conservative MP, Irvine Patnick - claiming Liverpool supporters had "deliberately arrived late determined to force entry" to the ground. What we know: While many Liverpool supporters did arrive after 14.30, evidence to the inquests suggested it was actually the police "failure to control the crowd" and "inadequate" turnstiles that led to the fatal crush. The claim that fans had "deliberately arrived late" formed the basis of the "rock solid" defence South Yorkshire Police [SYP] sought to present at the 1989 Taylor inquiry into the disaster. The aim was to "deflect blame on to supporters" and exonerate the police. The jury heard from former South Yorkshire Police inspector Clive Davis who recalled being told by former Ch Supt Terry Wain "to put the blame for this disaster where it belongs: on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans". This was denied in evidence by Mr Wain. However, he admitted a report he prepared had exaggerated claims that "several thousand" spectators had arrived at the ground within minutes of kick-off. The inquests heard the 10,100 fans with standing tickets for the Leppings Lane end were expected to enter through just seven turnstiles, causing congestion outside the ground. Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, concluded fans were reasonable to arrive between 14.30 and 14.40 as match tickets only requested people be in their places "15 minutes before the game". He was also satisfied that the large concentration of fans who gathered Leppings Lane at 14.40 to 14.50 "did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan". He concluded that police had "failed" to prepare for controlling the arrival of a large number of fans in a short period. Both the club and police "should have realised the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it" unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period. He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster". The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground. What the jury said: The behaviour of Liverpool supporters did not cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732Quite obviously one of the avowed a Police haters that enjoy sniping form behind his keyboard. I thought you would have a pop and lo and behold, so predictable. I know what I believe and if you believe there were only a few ticketless fans and that everyone was stone cold sober then you are a gullible fool. I wonder how you would cope if you were a Police a Officer? You probably vote Labour as well. Haha
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 9:53:16 GMT
Myth 1: Liverpool fans arrived 'late and without tickets' After the disaster, allegations emerged from "unnamed sources" - later established to be a Police Federation spokesman and the Sheffield Conservative MP, Irvine Patnick - claiming Liverpool supporters had "deliberately arrived late determined to force entry" to the ground. What we know: While many Liverpool supporters did arrive after 14.30, evidence to the inquests suggested it was actually the police "failure to control the crowd" and "inadequate" turnstiles that led to the fatal crush. The claim that fans had "deliberately arrived late" formed the basis of the "rock solid" defence South Yorkshire Police [SYP] sought to present at the 1989 Taylor inquiry into the disaster. The aim was to "deflect blame on to supporters" and exonerate the police. The jury heard from former South Yorkshire Police inspector Clive Davis who recalled being told by former Ch Supt Terry Wain "to put the blame for this disaster where it belongs: on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans". This was denied in evidence by Mr Wain. However, he admitted a report he prepared had exaggerated claims that "several thousand" spectators had arrived at the ground within minutes of kick-off. The inquests heard the 10,100 fans with standing tickets for the Leppings Lane end were expected to enter through just seven turnstiles, causing congestion outside the ground. Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, concluded fans were reasonable to arrive between 14.30 and 14.40 as match tickets only requested people be in their places "15 minutes before the game". He was also satisfied that the large concentration of fans who gathered Leppings Lane at 14.40 to 14.50 "did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan". He concluded that police had "failed" to prepare for controlling the arrival of a large number of fans in a short period. Both the club and police "should have realised the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it" unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period. He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster". The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground. What the jury said: The behaviour of Liverpool supporters did not cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732Quite obviously one of the avowed a Police haters that enjoy sniping form behind his keyboard. I thought you would have a pop and lo and behold, so predictable. I know what I believe and if you believe there were only a few ticketless fans and that everyone was stone cold sober then you are a gullible fool. I wonder how you would cope if you were a Police a Officer? You probably vote Labour as well. Hope you dont use the NHS being so anti labour
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Post by oldgas on Nov 30, 2019 11:53:40 GMT
Quite obviously one of the avowed a Police haters that enjoy sniping form behind his keyboard. I thought you would have a pop and lo and behold, so predictable. I know what I believe and if you believe there were only a few ticketless fans and that everyone was stone cold sober then you are a gullible fool. I wonder how you would cope if you were a Police a Officer? You probably vote Labour as well. Hope you dont use the NHS being so anti labour If you think those Marxists will do anything other than bankrupt the country and in the process destroy the NHS then you need to read critical analysis of their manifesto and watch Corbyn and McDonnell in action during interviews. To say nothing of Dianne Abbot and Emily Thornberry. The first would be in charge of the Police and national security. Abbot! F### me! If you believe their lies you'll believe anything. Dear God.
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Post by manorfarmgas on Nov 30, 2019 12:08:54 GMT
The bright kids at the back understand; you can carry on cutting up the shiny paper with the plastic scissors. How far back do you need to go back to understand yiddish Might be best Henbury if you clear up any misunderstanding by confirming that wasn't what you meant. Otherwise people might get the wrong idea. You didn't mean yiddish, you meant gibberish, am I right?
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Post by Henbury Gas on Nov 30, 2019 12:33:09 GMT
How far back do you need to go back to understand yiddish Might be best Henbury if you clear up any misunderstanding by confirming that wasn't what you meant. Otherwise people might get the wrong idea. You didn't mean yiddish, you meant gibberish, am I right? You are indeed correct sir, my dyslexia kicking in again big time. Must take more water with it in the future
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 30, 2019 13:55:59 GMT
IMHO people who lied should go to jail for perverting the course of justice. For me this is worse than making an instant decision that goes wrong, lies are deliberate. The Sun should be razed to the ground. Still the most read daily newspaper outside the free Metro And that makes it right for the lies they peddled at the time? UTG!
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 30, 2019 14:37:54 GMT
Everyone is entitled to an opinion on this topic and I guess forums all over the country will be expressing one this weekend but the level of ignorance being expressed on here by some posters is head-shaking. I’m sure lots of Liverpool families who lost members wont be reading this, but we look at that collage of the 96 every time it comes to the front page and see our family member and then read some of this.... It’s not worth falling out with any poster over it after 30 years but the level of ignorance from some posters just being wrong is .... Anyway, UTG!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 15:03:34 GMT
Hope you dont use the NHS being so anti labour If you think those Marxists will do anything other than bankrupt the country and in the process destroy the NHS then you need to read critical analysis of their manifesto and watch Corbyn and McDonnell in action during interviews. To say nothing of Dianne Abbot and Emily Thornberry. The first would be in charge of the Police and national security. Abbot! F### me! If you believe their lies you'll believe anything. Dear God. what do you know about karl marx
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 15:04:37 GMT
Hope you dont use the NHS being so anti labour If you think those Marxists will do anything other than bankrupt the country and in the process destroy the NHS then you need to read critical analysis of their manifesto and watch Corbyn and McDonnell in action during interviews. To say nothing of Dianne Abbot and Emily Thornberry. The first would be in charge of the Police and national security. Abbot! F### me! If you believe their lies you'll believe anything. Dear God. You would rather believe the man who looked the queen in the eyes and lied?
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Post by newmarketgas on Nov 30, 2019 15:13:48 GMT
If you think those Marxists will do anything other than bankrupt the country and in the process destroy the NHS then you need to read critical analysis of their manifesto and watch Corbyn and McDonnell in action during interviews. To say nothing of Dianne Abbot and Emily Thornberry. The first would be in charge of the Police and national security. Abbot! F### me! If you believe their lies you'll believe anything. Dear God. You would rather believe the man who looked the queen in the eyes and lied? Did the Queen tell you that or did you hear it on the BBC ?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 15:54:50 GMT
You would rather believe the man who looked the queen in the eyes and lied? Did the Queen tell you that or did you hear it on the BBC ? Same sources that are being used to denigrate the labour party.what is gospel for one is gospel for the other
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Post by oldgas on Nov 30, 2019 22:06:02 GMT
If you think those Marxists will do anything other than bankrupt the country and in the process destroy the NHS then you need to read critical analysis of their manifesto and watch Corbyn and McDonnell in action during interviews. To say nothing of Dianne Abbot and Emily Thornberry. The first would be in charge of the Police and national security. Abbot! F### me! If you believe their lies you'll believe anything. Dear God. what do you know about karl marx I know he was a dangerous C###. Good enough?
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Post by curlywurly on Nov 30, 2019 23:23:28 GMT
Myth 1: Liverpool fans arrived 'late and without tickets' After the disaster, allegations emerged from "unnamed sources" - later established to be a Police Federation spokesman and the Sheffield Conservative MP, Irvine Patnick - claiming Liverpool supporters had "deliberately arrived late determined to force entry" to the ground. What we know: While many Liverpool supporters did arrive after 14.30, evidence to the inquests suggested it was actually the police "failure to control the crowd" and "inadequate" turnstiles that led to the fatal crush. The claim that fans had "deliberately arrived late" formed the basis of the "rock solid" defence South Yorkshire Police [SYP] sought to present at the 1989 Taylor inquiry into the disaster. The aim was to "deflect blame on to supporters" and exonerate the police. The jury heard from former South Yorkshire Police inspector Clive Davis who recalled being told by former Ch Supt Terry Wain "to put the blame for this disaster where it belongs: on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans". This was denied in evidence by Mr Wain. However, he admitted a report he prepared had exaggerated claims that "several thousand" spectators had arrived at the ground within minutes of kick-off. The inquests heard the 10,100 fans with standing tickets for the Leppings Lane end were expected to enter through just seven turnstiles, causing congestion outside the ground. Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, concluded fans were reasonable to arrive between 14.30 and 14.40 as match tickets only requested people be in their places "15 minutes before the game". He was also satisfied that the large concentration of fans who gathered Leppings Lane at 14.40 to 14.50 "did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan". He concluded that police had "failed" to prepare for controlling the arrival of a large number of fans in a short period. Both the club and police "should have realised the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it" unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period. He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster". The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground. What the jury said: The behaviour of Liverpool supporters did not cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732Quite obviously one of the avowed a Police haters that enjoy sniping form behind his keyboard. I thought you would have a pop and lo and behold, so predictable. I know what I believe and if you believe there were only a few ticketless fans and that everyone was stone cold sober then you are a gullible fool. I wonder how you would cope if you were a Police a Officer? You probably vote Labour as well. Do you write for the Sun oldgas?
FFS, pay attention to what has been said at the inquest and trial.
There was a complete cover up by the South Yorkshire police, by the West Midlands police who 'investigated' them, by the Thatcher government and the Murdoch press. The unwarranted vilification of the Liverpool supporters who were the victims was a disgrace.
Duckenfield's complete incompetence on the day, compounded by the systematic campaign of lies thereafter are a massive shadow on the police and our game.
I'm no police hater, but the truth about those events has to dent confidence.
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Post by Baxtinho on Nov 30, 2019 23:36:49 GMT
IMHO people who lied should go to jail for perverting the course of justice. For me this is worse than making an instant decision that goes wrong, lies are deliberate. The Sun should be razed to the ground. Still the most read daily newspaper outside the free Metro Says it all about the state of the country when people actually pay for that vile rag or the Daily Mail. #DontBuyTheSun
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Post by oldgas on Nov 30, 2019 23:49:43 GMT
Quite obviously one of the avowed a Police haters that enjoy sniping form behind his keyboard. I thought you would have a pop and lo and behold, so predictable. I know what I believe and if you believe there were only a few ticketless fans and that everyone was stone cold sober then you are a gullible fool. I wonder how you would cope if you were a Police a Officer? You probably vote Labour as well. Do you write for the Sun oldgas?
FFS, pay attention to what has been said at the inquest and trial.
There was a complete cover up by the South Yorkshire police, by the West Midlands police who 'investigated' them, by the Thatcher government and the Murdoch press. The unwarranted vilification of the Liverpool supporters who were the victims was a disgrace.
Duckenfield's complete incompetence on the day, compounded by the systematic campaign of lies thereafter are a massive shadow on the police and our game.
I'm no police hater, but the truth about those events has to dent confidence.
It would appear you are at odds with the jury then. In my original post I expressed the opinion that there were too many factors on that dreadful day for the blame to be laid at one persons door. That's all I said. The extra sad thing is that the 97 victims in this tragedy would have been in the stadium for some time before the tunnel surge. They were at the front of the pen and so had nowhere to go. Because they were fenced in, as a response to constant pitch invasions, they were unable to escape the crush. The ordinary Bobbies who were pitch side of the fences could only look on in helpless horror as the tragedy unfolded. Were those poor blokes complicit in the stitch-up to which you refer? And no, I don't write for The Sun, which is a comic not a newspaper.
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Post by socrates on Dec 1, 2019 0:54:26 GMT
I have always found that day to be an extremely emotional one because I am a football fan and I have, like I think we all have, huge amounts of empathy with every fan involved that day. I also have extreme anger at the attitude of the authorities towards football fans at the time. These attitudes were that 'if you were a football fan, you were a hooligan so we will treat you ALL like animals and penn you in like animals. For me this attitude with the fences to stop pitch invasions were the cause of 96 fans losing their lives. The police did not understand football fans in the same way they didn't understand other sections of society such as ethnic minorities and hippy festival goers. Their job was to police the whole country but they had a small minded village attitude with which to do it. The police saw exhuberance and enthusiasm as hostility. We all know if we are outside and the game has kicked off we are desperate to get inside asap. The police would see this as hooliganism and not enthusiasm. If they understood this they would have delayed the kick off. Then when they got it wrong they would lie and cheat their way out of it. Despicable behaviour under the guise of authortarian respectability. I think this is why such venom is directed towards the police over such a long period. Injustice can be a great motivator. Totally agree with that Al , it was the accumulation of a number of things including Thatchers hatred of all football fans and her tough stance on it, caging people like animals , if you treat people like caged animals then expect them to behave like animals and perhaps even die like caged animals , the problem of hooliganism and the inability to understand why it happened and how to control it in a more organised and proper way, over exuberant supporters desperate to not miss kick off for an FA Cup semi final many thousands of which who were still outside minutes before kick off due to poor transport links and organisation outside the ground, police officers hitting people at the front with batons who were trying to desperately climb out to save their lives, many police officers forming a line across the half way line to seperate forest and Liverpool fans when they could have been helping to save lives... really the list goes on.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 8:29:02 GMT
what do you know about karl marx I know he was a dangerous C###. Good enough? You mean a Russian communist?
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