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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 12:36:19 GMT
For our friend the accountant. Here's a few questions your view may be very relevant to in the ongoing situation.
1) Why has Wael capitalised the debt between 1883 and Ltd? 1883 owns the Mem, Ltd is the football club.
2)How many shares do Dwayne get in 1883 for £18.4 million?
3) Capitalising debt does not give answers to how the club pays for developing the training ground, or indeed pays the wages over the ensuing months together with additional running costs, so I assume either Wael hopefully is now wealthy enough to cover it all, or another investor may be covering it.
I think that shareholders are entitled to ask the questions, but you view would be interesting
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Post by Gassy on Jun 20, 2020 12:37:55 GMT
GI, you're clearly a smart bloke and know a thing or two about business. I already read your posts with intrigue, although I certainly don't agree with most of them. However, when you say "Our club today, in reality, is in the same place as it was yesterday" - I'm genuinely baffled by this statement. I think the overall point you're trying to make is a good one, and it's correct. But as many have said, it's tainted by general negativity over Wael's actions, rather than seeing this a fresh start where we can learn from out mistakes. Fair question. The reason I said the debt situation hasn't changed anything, was because the debt was internal. In other words, as the whole debt was Waels, it didn't matter. As an exercise in making us more marketable, it certainly helps. Moreso if Wael is looking for investors. It means the charge on the Mem, our only viable asset, is gone, and the ground is now unencumbered. It can therefore be used as a guarantee for any potential new investor. I'm not saying it will be, just that it can be. With regard to your last point, due to various issues raised over the years I have not been convinced by Wael. Now that he has taken over from Hani, it could be as 'Feeling the Blues' has stated, that he is no longer being held back by other people, and it might well be the renaissance that Wael has needed. I hope so, because that would mean we would all benefit. Fair enough, I can understand the reasoning. As I had said, I just disagree with the part about being in reality, the same place as yesterday. Of course in many ways we are, the wages we're paying, the stadium, the weekly losses etc. However as you've pointed out, probably the most negative part about the club has been lifted and makes us a completely different business. As you say, wiping the debt out is pointless if we rack up another 18m in 3/4 years again. I get the feeling we've hopefully learnt from our mistakes though. Here's hoping to more good news on the horizon and a fresh start!
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 12:43:21 GMT
Problem? I said it makes no difference as he has still carried the debt. Again it will be interesting to see if another charge is put against the stadium. That in itself will not be the pits, depending who the investors are. It's a case of how the monies raised are spent. And as I say, I just hope he is getting good advice. Do you think he might leverage an equity swap with the FM Developers, utilising the development value of the Mem footprint? Anything is possible. I have thought about this. If we assume that our friendly developer builds the stadium but Wael runs the club, and takes up a lease on the new stadium, I think both guys would be reasonably happy, subject to the debt issue. Its all well and good the club paying to operate from the new stadium, but the developer would need to be confident in the clubs owner. If the club went bust, the developer would be left with an empty stadium and no one repaying the cost of building it. What then happens?
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Post by Big Jock on Jun 20, 2020 12:44:24 GMT
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Post by RD on Jun 20, 2020 12:52:21 GMT
Hahahahaha! What a f**cking tw@t!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 12:57:11 GMT
Do you think he might leverage an equity swap with the FM Developers, utilising the development value of the Mem footprint? Anything is possible. I have thought about this. If we assume that our friendly developer builds the stadium but Wael runs the club, and takes up a lease on the new stadium, I think both guys would be reasonably happy, subject to the debt issue. Its all well and good the club paying to operate from the new stadium, but the developer would need to be confident in the clubs owner. If the club went bust, the developer would be left with an empty stadium and no one repaying the cost of building it. What then happens? Yes indeed. My (very limited) understanding was that the FM Developers wanted the stadium and club as part of the overall development and as part of their business plan. I have no proof of that, but the delay in the FM sale going through, the linked development of the new training ground and the "sorting" of the balance sheet to at the club gives some hope to this. I hope.
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Post by LJG on Jun 20, 2020 13:03:41 GMT
Then why did you have such a problem with it? Problem? I said it makes no difference as he has still carried the debt. Again it will be interesting to see if another charge is put against the stadium. That in itself will not be the pits, depending who the investors are. It's a case of how the monies raised are spent. And as I say, I just hope he is getting good advice. Are you stupid or do you think I am? Or do you not realise all of your previous posts are easily viewed and even searchable? Are you really going to make me go and find the volume of quotes of you bitching about the debt? Come on, I've got things to do. Don't make me do this.
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Post by peterparker on Jun 20, 2020 13:13:45 GMT
For our friend the accountant. Here's a few questions your view may be very relevant to in the ongoing situation. 1) Why has Wael capitalised the debt between 1883 and Ltd? 1883 owns the Mem, Ltd is the football club. 2)How many shares do Dwayne get in 1883 for £18.4 million? 3) Capitalising debt does not give answers to how the club pays for developing the training ground, or indeed pays the wages over the ensuing months together with additional running costs, so I assume either Wael hopefully is now wealthy enough to cover it all, or another investor may be covering it. I think that shareholders are entitled to ask the questions, but you view would be interesting 1) because Wael has plans and is trying to reassure those that were worried that he is committed. Although i dont quite understand the question.its just a chain. Dwane loaned 1883 money, who in turn loan it to the FC. The 'missing' 2m between 1883 and the FC is probably taken up as Wonga/Sainsburys cost. Whats the problem again? 2) i beleive the ordinary share are 10p a pop. 3) who knows, but its a situation facing all clubs right now. Maybe the training ground is coming out of Wael's pocket As I say, I agree what happens next is important, but lets wait til we get some info before questioning everything and just accept Wael has done a nice thing. Any deals, can be questioned as and when, but it seems, much like the Colony, sh** is going to get done one way or another and we wont hear until things happen instead of having people leaking all sorts of nonsense over the internet
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Post by madgas on Jun 20, 2020 13:34:16 GMT
I have a reasonable idea- I'm an accountant. My point was not about the operations of companies. To be honest, I think football clubs are not like usual companies and the comparisons whilst work on a level are clumsy. The point I was making is that you had been throwing the accusation of debt at Wael for a long time and now hes written it off. A consistent person would say that's better, or thanks. However, now you state the issue you have been banging on about for 18 months to be trivial matter. Its beyond belief. It's beyond belief that you are an accountant and can't see an issue with how the debt rocketed up so quickly. I'd worry for your clients. Nobody said it is trivial, I asked why he's cleared it now when it makes no real difference other than to remove the charge on the Mem. It was awful how it grew so quickly, but that wasn't just down to Wael, as he wasn't in charge. Now he is, and I hope he's taking sensible advise as to the future. GI you seem to be attributing an opinion to me. "I cant see an issue with how the debt rocketed up quickly" Please could you illustrate where I've made that statement?
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Post by Topper Gas on Jun 20, 2020 13:39:09 GMT
For our friend the accountant. Here's a few questions your view may be very relevant to in the ongoing situation. 1) Why has Wael capitalised the debt between 1883 and Ltd? 1883 owns the Mem, Ltd is the football club. 2)How many shares do Dwayne get in 1883 for £18.4 million? 3) Capitalising debt does not give answers to how the club pays for developing the training ground, or indeed pays the wages over the ensuing months together with additional running costs, so I assume either Wael hopefully is now wealthy enough to cover it all, or another investor may be covering it.I think that shareholders are entitled to ask the questions, but you view would be interesting Seriously are you a screw loose or something, Wael clears £18m of debts, writes off £2m of interest, is committed to spending £2m+ on a new training ground but you are questioning whether he can pay the wage bill over the summer, having spent over £20m do you seriously think he's then going to struggle to find the £1m or so for the wages, it does beggar belief what you are posting on this thread.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 13:44:54 GMT
For our friend the accountant. Here's a few questions your view may be very relevant to in the ongoing situation. 1) Why has Wael capitalised the debt between 1883 and Ltd? 1883 owns the Mem, Ltd is the football club. 2)How many shares do Dwayne get in 1883 for £18.4 million? 3) Capitalising debt does not give answers to how the club pays for developing the training ground, or indeed pays the wages over the ensuing months together with additional running costs, so I assume either Wael hopefully is now wealthy enough to cover it all, or another investor may be covering it.I think that shareholders are entitled to ask the questions, but you view would be interesting Seriously are you a screw loose or something, Wael clears £18m of debts, writes off £2m of interest, is committed to spending £2m+ on a new training ground but you are questioning whether he can pay the wage bill over the summer, having spent over £20m do you seriously think he's then going to struggle to find the £1m or so for the wages, it does beggar belief what you are posting on this thread. Sorry Topper. I thought your level of knowledge was better than that. You just have no idea, so not worth responding to.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 13:46:53 GMT
Anything is possible. I have thought about this. If we assume that our friendly developer builds the stadium but Wael runs the club, and takes up a lease on the new stadium, I think both guys would be reasonably happy, subject to the debt issue. Its all well and good the club paying to operate from the new stadium, but the developer would need to be confident in the clubs owner. If the club went bust, the developer would be left with an empty stadium and no one repaying the cost of building it. What then happens? Yes indeed. My (very limited) understanding was that the FM Developers wanted the stadium and club as part of the overall development and as part of their business plan. I have no proof of that, but the delay in the FM sale going through, the linked development of the new training ground and the "sorting" of the balance sheet to at the club gives some hope to this. I hope. This was my understanding as well, though the training ground was never part of the deal.
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Post by poorblue on Jun 20, 2020 13:50:09 GMT
Pure speculation on my part There has been long time hair pulling out over a massive debt. Massive abuse. The debt is removed and it now seems it never was a debt by some! Waverers switching side from pessimist to optimist. Anyone with construction knowledge would know that a fruit market would be a steel framed building on an industrial site with outline planning use already agreed. Construction would be achieved in much less than 10 months not the 10 years stated. Some industrial developers have buildings already built standing empty waiting for a tenant either for lease or purchase. Move in within the month. Stadiums as we all now know would take longer but if a site was about to be purchased most of the planning and outline design ground work would have been already "agreed" by Planning Dept in private meetings. If as suggested a site is about to be agreed 2 years for the construction would be well within realistic time frames for a first home game 3 seasons away. 2 seasons away might be possible is the stadium is phased with only say 2 sides built You are of course correct. In fact I was told that on completion of a deal, the companies at the fruit market would have 12 months to relocate, and then construction to begin. The 5-10 year bit is what was in the email to the managers at the fruit market. I find that ridiculous, as I said at the time. Why would anyone tie money up for that length of time with nothing to show for it. It would be be great if Wael could buy the land and build the stadium himself. The reality is that that is not likely. So my whole point is, who is currently funding us? If it's Wael, ok. If it's not I just hope it's not another Charlton Athketic situation that almost brought the club down. I know nothing!. However if I recall correctly Wael at takeover stated the Sainsbury matter did not affect UWE going forward. He also stated finance was in place to build the stadium. UWE failed for unknown reasons stated by Wael as UWE failure to agree and respond. Again if I recall correctly the UWE land would be leased on a 125 year lease and the funding of the build was Wael money, FA money and Sports Council money (and a n other money?). There was no mention of partnering with other interested parties such as developers. Thus the one difference I can see is the cost of land with regard to Fruit Market or any other site. So the outstanding question is does whatever any potential stadium site involve leasehold or purchase of land. If leasehold it is status quo (as per UWE costs) but additional capital if land has to be purchased. So does Wael have the additional money to purchase or does he need to partner with others to raise that capital? What do you know that makes you negative and it's unlikely? Finance rates are at an all time low. There have been many rumours (fantasy?) about associated hotels, sports centres shopping malls etc by Dwayne Sport or any new company that may be formed. The Fruit Market site is on the edge of a huge complete redevelopment of St Phillips Island and large redevelopment companies are poised to move in and regenerate this run down area as confirmed by Mr Mayor Marvin Rees himself who stated he is supportive of Rovers. UTG
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 14:05:16 GMT
For our friend the accountant. Here's a few questions your view may be very relevant to in the ongoing situation. 1) Why has Wael capitalised the debt between 1883 and Ltd? 1883 owns the Mem, Ltd is the football club. 2)How many shares do Dwayne get in 1883 for £18.4 million? 3) Capitalising debt does not give answers to how the club pays for developing the training ground, or indeed pays the wages over the ensuing months together with additional running costs, so I assume either Wael hopefully is now wealthy enough to cover it all, or another investor may be covering it. I think that shareholders are entitled to ask the questions, but you view 1) because Wael has plans and is trying to reassure those that were worried that he is committed. Although i dont quite understand the question.its just a chain. Dwane loaned 1883 money, who in turn loan it to the FC. The 'missing' 2m between 1883 and the FC is probably taken up as Wonga/Sainsburys cost. Whats the problem again? 2) i beleive the ordinary share are 10p a pop. 3) who knows, but its a situation facing all clubs right now. Maybe the training ground is coming out of Wael's pocket As I say, I agree what happens next is important, but lets wait til we get some info before questioning everything and just accept Wael has done a nice thing. Any deals, can be questioned as and when, but it seems, much like the Colony, sh** is going to get done one way or another and we wont hear until things happen instead of having people leaking all sorts of nonsense over the internet Actually the club are owed money by Dwayne. As for the shares being 10p, totally irrelevant. It's basically a description. Thinking back in time, I believe that it was a base price for newly issued shares. But Im Going on memory there. Whether it still carries that element of clout I can't remember. I have not denigrated Wael on any of this. Reread it. I've said if Wael is funding the training ground, I've no problem with it. I'm worried about possible new investors and what hold they may or may not have. I think if Wael is to borrow in a meaningful sense, then I hope he's getting better advice than NH and his bloody wonga loan. I assume that the club will pay a fee for use of the training ground in order to fund it. Again no problem, if it's not a ridiculously high figure. We currently pay about £50k per year at Cribbs. To fund the £2m approx at the Colony, we would have to pay in excess of £100k per annum. Unless of course, Wael is covering the cost. If he is, he would deservedly earn the grateful thanks of all gasheads.
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Post by oldgas on Jun 20, 2020 14:05:23 GMT
Seriously are you a screw loose or something, Wael clears £18m of debts, writes off £2m of interest, is committed to spending £2m+ on a new training ground but you are questioning whether he can pay the wage bill over the summer, having spent over £20m do you seriously think he's then going to struggle to find the £1m or so for the wages, it does beggar belief what you are posting on this thread. Sorry Topper. I thought your level of knowledge was better than that. You just have no idea, so not worth responding to. You just did.
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Post by aghast on Jun 20, 2020 14:20:39 GMT
So at 10p a share, Wael has awarded himself 180 million shares?
Crikey. It'll take a while to shift that lot if he ever decides to sell them.
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Post by peterparker on Jun 20, 2020 14:26:23 GMT
1) because Wael has plans and is trying to reassure those that were worried that he is committed. Although i dont quite understand the question.its just a chain. Dwane loaned 1883 money, who in turn loan it to the FC. The 'missing' 2m between 1883 and the FC is probably taken up as Wonga/Sainsburys cost. Whats the problem again? 2) i beleive the ordinary share are 10p a pop. 3) who knows, but its a situation facing all clubs right now. Maybe the training ground is coming out of Wael's pocket As I say, I agree what happens next is important, but lets wait til we get some info before questioning everything and just accept Wael has done a nice thing. Any deals, can be questioned as and when, but it seems, much like the Colony, sh** is going to get done one way or another and we wont hear until things happen instead of having people leaking all sorts of nonsense over the internet Actually the club are owed money by Dwayne. As for the shares being 10p, totally irrelevant. It's basically a description. Thinking back in time, I believe that it was a base price for newly issued shares. But Im Going on memory there. Whether it still carries that element of clout I can't remember. I have not denigrated Wael on any of this. Reread it. I've said if Wael is funding the training ground, I've no problem with it. I'm worried about possible new investors and what hold they may or may not have. I think if Wael is to borrow in a meaningful sense, then I hope he's getting better advice than NH and his bloody wonga loan. I assume that the club will pay a fee for use of the training ground in order to fund it. Again no problem, if it's not a ridiculously high figure. We currently pay about £50k per year at Cribbs. To fund the £2m approx at the Colony, we would have to pay in excess of £100k per annum. Unless of course, Wael is covering the cost. If he is, he would deservedly earn the grateful thanks of all gasheads. the club might be owed money, but would be in a net debtor position, anything owed would simply be offset
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 14:27:20 GMT
I know nothing!. However if I recall correctly Wael at takeover stated the Sainsbury matter did not affect UWE going forward. He also stated finance was in place to build the stadium. UWE failed for unknown reasons stated by Wael as UWE failure to agree and respond. Again if I recall correctly the UWE land would be leased on a 125 year lease and the funding of the build was Wael money, FA money and Sports Council money (and a n other money?). There was no mention of partnering with other interested parties such as developers. Thus the one difference I can see is the cost of land with regard to Fruit Market or any other site. So the outstanding question is does whatever any potential stadium site involve leasehold or purchase of land. If leasehold it is status quo (as per UWE costs) but additional capital if land has to be purchased. So does Wael have the additional money to purchase or does he need to partner with others to raise that capital? What do you know that makes you negative and it's unlikely? Finance rates are at an all time low. There have been many rumours (fantasy?) about associated hotels, sports centres shopping malls etc by Dwayne Sport or any new company that may be formed. The Fruit Market site is on the edge of a huge complete redevelopment of St Phillips Island and large redevelopment companies are poised to move in and regenerate this run down area as confirmed by Mr Mayor Marvin Rees himself who stated he is supportive of Rovers. UTG Agree with most of that. As I understand it, the deal was about the developer building the stadium, in return for the Mem, plus a balance of rent for want of a better word to cover the costs. The Mem is worth somewhere between £15-20m. The land at The Fruit Market has a cost of somewhere North of £55m. This would of course incorporate other businesses around it like at Bolton or MK Dons etc. Wael may or may not have the funding to square that circle, but if the developer and Wael come to an agreement, it could be a number of ways in which they may proceed. Wael could sell the Mem to them on the basis of them guaranteeing us a long term lease at the new stadium, subject to the ongoing cost per annum. But most importantly, would we keep the majority if not all the income generated by the new stadium. So he now has between £15-20m in his back pocket. But i I think the more likely scenario could be that Wael hands over the Mem on the basis of an agreed number of years on the new site, which would help the developer to mitigate his initial outlay. There are are many ways it can be done, but it all comes back to who is funding it, and what they may or may not demand in return. We certainly don't want to end up as another Coventry. The mayor has spoken many times that he wants to see a sport and leisure set up there, in fact it would become the new Bristol C*ty centre. Which is why it is an opportunity we cannot afford to miss. It would certainly be at the heart of the future Bristol, and one that Lansdown could never wish to emulate t'other side of the river. I am being cautious. This is Rovers, and we've had so many set backs, it's scary. I haven't said it's unlikely. In fact I'm pretty certain it will happen. If it doesn't, we have no real future, as we will die at the Mem. Wael knows that, so now it's on him. If he succeeds, I'll help erect the new statue on the centre. Now that would really water off the sh*theads.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 14:28:42 GMT
So at 10p a share, Wael has awarded himself 180 million shares? Crikey. It'll take a while to shift that lot if he ever decides to sell them. Have a look at the share prices in the paper. The 10p is not relevant.
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Post by stevek192 on Jun 20, 2020 14:38:04 GMT
If there was somebody going to start a negative post on this recent news then you don 't need to be "in the know" to know who it would be!! It does not take an accountant or any financial expert to see where the debt comes from or is built up. How many football owners actually manage to run at a profit? I don't know if we will get a Stadium or if in the future Bristol Rovers will even exist but we are only on this earth for a short time and what happens beyond that does not really interest me. My love of Bristol Rovers will not falter and all I would say is that nothing good for our club will EVER come out of people like gasincider because he is the sort who will NEVER apologise no matter what and even if Wael delivers the Stadium there will be something wrong. Don't ever expect any Humble Pie from gasincider because all he will do is bring more negatives to the table until he is proved 100% wrong. The fact is that the only person who can do ANYTHING about the future of the club is the person who owns it NOBODY ELSE matters. Supporters of the club have always; over the years since the club was formed; had to put their faith in the person or people who owned the club and this is still the case now. So unless Gasinciider or Jim Chappell or Ken Masters or anybody else have the MONEY to change the course of the club then thney may as well sit back and either enjoy the ride or preferably get off the bus!
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