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Post by purdownpoacher1 on Jun 30, 2022 19:45:56 GMT
I don’t know if anyone watches those fly on the wall type emergency services programmes but there was one on 5Action on Tuesday night (Inside the Force 24/7) which may be of interest on this subject. I’ve never really understood the victimless prosecution part or why the CPS seem so insistent on pursuing this case. It showed the Police being called to a city centre incident where a man was attacking a woman. The people monitoring the areas cctv immediately pointed their cameras and led the police towards the incident and identified the attacker for them. He was arrested on the spot but his female partner who was still on the floor didn’t want to press charges - he was arrested and taken to the cells. The next day he’s interviewed and answers “no comment” to all the questions. The detective asks the CPS to press charges on the strength of the cctv footage - its harrowing to watch as the guy is clearly seen punching her to the head about 4 or 5 times, the final blow sending her to the floor looking unconscious. She manages to then sit up and he volleys her in the face with great force. The next bit was quite staggering. The CPS said their guidelines were not to prosecute if there is no statement from the victim and the perpetrator had not been involved in any domestic violence during the last 12 months. This chap had a long history of such convictions but nothing that the police were aware of in the preceding 12 months so they had to let him go. The detective was rightly furious, questioned why they even bothered and said he might as well hand his badge in in. To add insult to injury they even had to give him a lift home! This incident took place in June 2021 - roughly the same time as JB’s incident is alleged to have taken place. It left me scratching my head as to why the CPS were so keen to pursue the JB case with barely any evidence when it appears totally contradictory to their own guidelines that were in place at the time? We often hear the mantra that celebs, politicians and the wealthy don’t have to live by the same rules as us plebs but it looks to me that they are treated worse. Very interesting, puts a different slant on the JB case. Great to see you back eric
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Post by Topper Gas on Jun 30, 2022 19:47:05 GMT
Although if we're flying in L1 and he's found guilty I can see Wael doing everything he can to wriggle out of dismissing him, regardless as to what he's stated in the past. Seriously? Wael is a lot things but there's no way he's stupid. What you describe would be an enormous PR own goal, it would turn the vast majority of fans against him and we'd have to deal with everything else that'd come with standing behind a manager convicted of trying to kick his wife's head off. There's a section of our fans, I have no doubt, that would want Barton to stay even if found guilty - but there are things more important in life than doing well on a football pitch. The fact Wael employed him with an ongoing assault case plus his past history and then stood by him when he was charged with assaulting his wife seems to contradict that view. All those fans/posters who claimed they'd never watch Rovers whilst Barton was our manager seem to have already returned, perhaps a conviction might be a step too far but nothing would surprise me.
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Post by purdownpoacher1 on Jun 30, 2022 19:47:22 GMT
Yes, welcome back eric - missed your contributions ! UTG💙
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Post by Topper Gas on Jun 30, 2022 19:55:34 GMT
My guess is it’s a bit politically motivated and the CPS want to be seen to be tough given the high profile incidents of recent years and public/media pressure for more convictions. With JB being a well known person (and one with a checkered past) they seem blinkered in wanting to press ahead even if it appears contradictory to their own guidelines. It looks like the evidence is flimsy in the JB case and will likely be thrown out. The bigger worry for me after watching that incident on Tuesdays programme is how can anyone have confidence in the criminal justice system when the CPS are clearly so inconsistent. I felt massively sorry for the police watching that - it must be so dispiriting. Very Surely the difference is Mrs B called 999 and alleged she'd been assaulted and then, I believe, repeated that to the PC's when they attended the scene and that's recorded on their cams, as such, the cases aren't really that similar. if this case ever gets to trial the cam recordings could be real shockers for fans even if JB is ultimately found not guilty by the magistrate.
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Post by Baxtinho on Jun 30, 2022 20:00:24 GMT
Seriously? Wael is a lot things but there's no way he's stupid. What you describe would be an enormous PR own goal, it would turn the vast majority of fans against him and we'd have to deal with everything else that'd come with standing behind a manager convicted of trying to kick his wife's head off. There's a section of our fans, I have no doubt, that would want Barton to stay even if found guilty - but there are things more important in life than doing well on a football pitch. The fact Wael employed him with an ongoing assault case plus his past history and then stood by him when he was charged with assaulting his wife seems to contradict that view. All those fans/posters who claimed they'd never watch Rovers whilst Barton was our manager seem to have already returned, perhaps a conviction might be a step too far but nothing would surprise me. I don't know anyone who was staying away that has returned - maybe the odd few have changed their minds but certainly not all.
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Post by eric on Jun 30, 2022 20:17:09 GMT
Surely the difference is Mrs B called 999 and alleged she'd been assaulted and then, I believe, repeated that to the PC's when they attended the scene and that's recorded on their cams, as such, the cases aren't really that similar. if this case ever gets to trial the cam recordings could be real shockers for fans even if JB is ultimately found not guilty by the magistrate. Really? You don’t think there is a difference when there is one case where the whole event is filmed showing the perpetrator landing numerous punches and then a full force volley to the head which sees the CPS choose not to proceed and then another case where there seems to be no clear or substantial evidence let alone recorded footage which the CPS seem hellbent on pursuing? The CPS guidelines seemingly in place in the summer of 2021 don’t appear to have been followed consistently. The only obvious assumption is that JB is being treated differently to the rest of the population for political reasons, media pressure and perception. I imagine the CPS would rather see such a case fail in court so a judge or magistrate is blamed rather than being seen as the ones who stopped it proceeding in the first place and accused of not taking domestic violence seriously. For the record if JB is proven guilty his employment at BRFC should be the least of his worries. Anyone guilty of serious violent offences should be jailed.
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Post by gasify on Jun 30, 2022 20:29:46 GMT
Surely the difference is Mrs B called 999 and alleged she'd been assaulted and then, I believe, repeated that to the PC's when they attended the scene and that's recorded on their cams, as such, the cases aren't really that similar. if this case ever gets to trial the cam recordings could be real shockers for fans even if JB is ultimately found not guilty by the magistrate. Really? You don’t think there is a difference when there is one case where the whole event is filmed showing the perpetrator landing numerous punches and then a full force volley to the head which sees the CPS choose not to proceed and then another case where there seems to be no clear or substantial evidence let alone recorded footage which the CPS seem hellbent on pursuing? The CPS guidelines seemingly in place in the summer of 2021 don’t appear to have been followed consistently. The only obvious assumption is that JB is being treated differently to the rest of the population for political reasons, media pressure and perception. I imagine the CPS would rather see such a case fail in court so a judge or magistrate is blamed rather than being seen as the ones who stopped it proceeding in the first place and accused of not taking domestic violence seriously. For the record if JB is proven guilty his employment at BRFC should be the least of his worries. Anyone guilty of serious violent offences should be jailed. OR "The CPS said their guidelines were not to prosecute if there is no statement from the victim and the perpetrator had not been involved in any domestic violence during the last 12 months." Maybe he had been involved in the last 12 months. That really is the ONLY logical conclusion that can be taken from your post
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2022 22:54:28 GMT
Sorry my fault it wasn't clear, If he is guilty he will go down and be sacked with no pay or severance package and rightly so. I meant to say he would only escape being sacked i would think if it went to appeal, and if he was acquitted and went back to normal service I'd be amazed if Wael hasn't already put a big compensation clause into his original contract If by "go down", you mean he will go to jail. There is little chance of that happening, just as there is of him being found guilty. Of course that is my opinion. That said, from what is in the public domain and if his wife does appear for the defence, it would be very difficult for a magistrate to find him guilty. Having said that, if some on here were the magistrate, they would probably send him down for life. Jeezzz, need to sort my posts. I'm a pro Barton fan love the guy for what he's done with the gas from day one, I dont think for one moment there is a case. Just trying to make the point he will be in demand as a manager when this case goes away. But would not condemn the charges if proven. Just re read my comments and realise I definitely need to give up the Natch. UTG
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Post by Topper Gas on Jul 1, 2022 6:01:43 GMT
Surely the difference is Mrs B called 999 and alleged she'd been assaulted and then, I believe, repeated that to the PC's when they attended the scene and that's recorded on their cams, as such, the cases aren't really that similar. if this case ever gets to trial the cam recordings could be real shockers for fans even if JB is ultimately found not guilty by the magistrate. Really? You don’t think there is a difference when there is one case where the whole event is filmed showing the perpetrator landing numerous punches and then a full force volley to the head which sees the CPS choose not to proceed and then another case where there seems to be no clear or substantial evidence let alone recorded footage which the CPS seem hellbent on pursuing? The CPS guidelines seemingly in place in the summer of 2021 don’t appear to have been followed consistently. The only obvious assumption is that JB is being treated differently to the rest of the population for political reasons, media pressure and perception. I imagine the CPS would rather see such a case fail in court so a judge or magistrate is blamed rather than being seen as the ones who stopped it proceeding in the first place and accused of not taking domestic violence seriously. For the record if JB is proven guilty his employment at BRFC should be the least of his worries. Anyone guilty of serious violent offences should be jailed. As I previously pointed out Mrs B gave a "statement", the woman in the other incident apparently made no comments to the police.
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Post by eric on Jul 1, 2022 6:48:28 GMT
Really? You don’t think there is a difference when there is one case where the whole event is filmed showing the perpetrator landing numerous punches and then a full force volley to the head which sees the CPS choose not to proceed and then another case where there seems to be no clear or substantial evidence let alone recorded footage which the CPS seem hellbent on pursuing? The CPS guidelines seemingly in place in the summer of 2021 don’t appear to have been followed consistently. The only obvious assumption is that JB is being treated differently to the rest of the population for political reasons, media pressure and perception. I imagine the CPS would rather see such a case fail in court so a judge or magistrate is blamed rather than being seen as the ones who stopped it proceeding in the first place and accused of not taking domestic violence seriously. For the record if JB is proven guilty his employment at BRFC should be the least of his worries. Anyone guilty of serious violent offences should be jailed. As I previously pointed out Mrs B gave a "statement", the woman in the other incident apparently made no comments to the police. The other incident was an absolute open goal tap in for the prosecutors. You couldn’t get an easier conviction - the whole incident playing out in front of multiple witnesses, in full, clear view of cctv with police arriving in seconds with the perpetrator stood still stood over his victim. If ever there was a prime example of when a ‘victimless prosecution’ should go ahead that was it surely? A repeat, violent domestic abuser who should have been prosecuted and jailed in order to protect other future victims regardless of whether his latest victim wanted to prosecute. If the JB case is also being classed as a ‘victimless prosecution’ if Mrs B doesn’t want to proceed then that is where I’m really struggling with the CPS motivation and consistency. They choose to ignore the easy conviction which will protect other future victims but pursue the obviously harder conviction of JB when the case is far less clear and extremely unlikely to have to same quality of evidence. As I mentioned earlier it left the detective in the other case questioning the point of his role and totally dispirited with the system and anyone watching on tv would have been left dumbstruck at the CPS decision making. I’d love to hear the reasoning and their justifications for their actions on the two cases. Anyway, I’ll leave it there and see how it pans out later in the year. My hunch is it will get thrown out, huge amount of public money wasted and the lawyers counting their cash.
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Post by rememberhalifax on Jul 1, 2022 7:03:21 GMT
As I previously pointed out Mrs B gave a "statement", the woman in the other incident apparently made no comments to the police. The other incident was an absolute open goal tap in for the prosecutors. You couldn’t get an easier conviction - the whole incident playing out in front of multiple witnesses, in full, clear view of cctv with police arriving in seconds with the perpetrator stood still stood over his victim. If ever there was a prime example of when a ‘victimless prosecution’ should go ahead that was it surely? A repeat, violent domestic abuser who should have been prosecuted and jailed in order to protect other future victims regardless of whether his latest victim wanted to prosecute. If the JB case is also being classed as a ‘victimless prosecution’ if Mrs B doesn’t want to proceed then that is where I’m really struggling with the CPS motivation and consistency. They choose to ignore the easy conviction which will protect other future victims but pursue the obviously harder conviction of JB when the case is far less clear and extremely unlikely to have to same quality of evidence. As I mentioned earlier it left the detective in the other case questioning the point of his role and totally dispirited with the system and anyone watching on tv would have been left dumbstruck at the CPS decision making. I’d love to hear the reasoning and their justifications for their actions on the two cases. Anyway, I’ll leave it there and see how it pans out later in the year. My hunch is it will get thrown out, huge amount of public money wasted and the lawyers counting their cash. Quite astonishing! have not seen programme but it would be interesting to hear what , after seeing the footage and being made aware of the perpetrators record, possible reason they had for not prosecuting, but of course we will never know, leaving our friend to carry on with his thuggery causing more misery and frustration to those charged with keeping the peace, unbelievable but not wholly surprising in this day and age.
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Post by SleepyGas on Jul 1, 2022 8:54:19 GMT
Really? You don’t think there is a difference when there is one case where the whole event is filmed showing the perpetrator landing numerous punches and then a full force volley to the head which sees the CPS choose not to proceed and then another case where there seems to be no clear or substantial evidence let alone recorded footage which the CPS seem hellbent on pursuing? The CPS guidelines seemingly in place in the summer of 2021 don’t appear to have been followed consistently. The only obvious assumption is that JB is being treated differently to the rest of the population for political reasons, media pressure and perception. I imagine the CPS would rather see such a case fail in court so a judge or magistrate is blamed rather than being seen as the ones who stopped it proceeding in the first place and accused of not taking domestic violence seriously. For the record if JB is proven guilty his employment at BRFC should be the least of his worries. Anyone guilty of serious violent offences should be jailed. OR "The CPS said their guidelines were not to prosecute if there is no statement from the victim and the perpetrator had not been involved in any domestic violence during the last 12 months." Maybe he had been involved in the last 12 months. That really is the ONLY logical conclusion that can be taken from your post That is an interesting angle. I wondered the same when I read that post, but surely historical allegations/incidents (that did not lead to an arrest) would form part of the prosecution case and therefore would have been mentioned by now? I believe previous cases (guilty or not guilty) cannot be cited in prosecutions, but if there were several historic examples of Mrs Barton calling the police to calm down her husband (which did not lead to charges) then that would be admissible in court? Wouldn't it?
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Post by eric on Jul 1, 2022 10:58:14 GMT
The other incident was an absolute open goal tap in for the prosecutors. You couldn’t get an easier conviction - the whole incident playing out in front of multiple witnesses, in full, clear view of cctv with police arriving in seconds with the perpetrator stood still stood over his victim. If ever there was a prime example of when a ‘victimless prosecution’ should go ahead that was it surely? A repeat, violent domestic abuser who should have been prosecuted and jailed in order to protect other future victims regardless of whether his latest victim wanted to prosecute. If the JB case is also being classed as a ‘victimless prosecution’ if Mrs B doesn’t want to proceed then that is where I’m really struggling with the CPS motivation and consistency. They choose to ignore the easy conviction which will protect other future victims but pursue the obviously harder conviction of JB when the case is far less clear and extremely unlikely to have to same quality of evidence. As I mentioned earlier it left the detective in the other case questioning the point of his role and totally dispirited with the system and anyone watching on tv would have been left dumbstruck at the CPS decision making. I’d love to hear the reasoning and their justifications for their actions on the two cases. Anyway, I’ll leave it there and see how it pans out later in the year. My hunch is it will get thrown out, huge amount of public money wasted and the lawyers counting their cash. Quite astonishing! have not seen programme but it would be interesting to hear what , after seeing the footage and being made aware of the perpetrators record, possible reason they had for not prosecuting, but of course we will never know, leaving our friend to carry on with his thuggery causing more misery and frustration to those charged with keeping the peace, unbelievable but not wholly surprising in this day and age. You are right we will never know. It just looks to me like they created these guidelines and then felt obliged to follow them. In the case I’ve referred to this has meant their lack of willing to pursue an easy win victimless prosecution has 1) Left his current partner at risk of harm and 2) left him free to carry out his cowardly thuggery on a new and future victim. When you see their apparent desperation to pursue the JB it makes you wonder whether their priory is to genuinely protect the public or protect their own reputation, hence feeling of a need to take the higher profile JB case all the way despite what seems a quite flimsy set of evidence.
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Post by Midsomer Murderer on Jul 1, 2022 11:02:31 GMT
The fact Wael employed him with an ongoing assault case plus his past history and then stood by him when he was charged with assaulting his wife seems to contradict that view. All those fans/posters who claimed they'd never watch Rovers whilst Barton was our manager seem to have already returned, perhaps a conviction might be a step too far but nothing would surprise me. I don't know anyone who was staying away that has returned - maybe the odd few have changed their minds but certainly not all. Not been missed - Ground has been rocking
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Barton...
Jul 1, 2022 12:17:07 GMT
via mobile
Post by baggins on Jul 1, 2022 12:17:07 GMT
I don't know anyone who was staying away that has returned - maybe the odd few have changed their minds but certainly not all. Not been missed - Ground has been rocking And season ticket sales suggest not many care about his private life and are looking forward to see what he can do in Lg1.
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Post by SleepyGas on Jul 1, 2022 12:33:32 GMT
I don't know anyone who was staying away that has returned - maybe the odd few have changed their minds but certainly not all. Not been missed - Ground has been rocking The ground has been rocking, especially towards the business end of the season. Very enjoyable. But I have missed some of those that have been staying away. Some of these people I only saw at Rovers, so it is a shame that they cannot bring themselves to attend under Barton. But that is their choice and I respect their decision. It must be very hard for them though.
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Post by baggins on Jul 1, 2022 12:52:52 GMT
Not been missed - Ground has been rocking The ground has been rocking, especially towards the business end of the season. Very enjoyable. But I have missed some of those that have been staying away. Some of these people I only saw at Rovers, so it is a shame that they cannot bring themselves to attend under Barton. But that is their choice and I respect their decision. It must be very hard for them though. They missed one hell of a Season and I don't feel sorry for them.
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Post by SleepyGas on Jul 1, 2022 12:54:26 GMT
The ground has been rocking, especially towards the business end of the season. Very enjoyable. But I have missed some of those that have been staying away. Some of these people I only saw at Rovers, so it is a shame that they cannot bring themselves to attend under Barton. But that is their choice and I respect their decision. It must be very hard for them though. They missed one hell of a Season and I don't feel sorry for them. I doubt they are too concerned with your pity
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Barton...
Jul 1, 2022 12:55:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by baggins on Jul 1, 2022 12:55:23 GMT
They missed one hell of a Season and I don't feel sorry for them. I doubt they are too concerned with your pity There is no pity.
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Post by peterhooper57 on Jul 1, 2022 12:58:45 GMT
They missed one hell of a Season and I don't feel sorry for them. I doubt they are too concerned with your pity Unfortunately for you, Joey has done an absolutely fantastic job, promised and delivered promotion, and matches have been selling out, long may that continue.
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