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Post by gasincider on Jul 27, 2020 15:33:34 GMT
Seems as though the coronavirus has finally hit home at our football club.
Some office staff and the shop staff have been offered the chance to take voluntary redundancy. Sad that it has come to this, but I suppose it is inevitable given that there is no money coming in. It will be a rather strange experience going in the shop. But it then begs the question, who will be behind the counter?
With the 233% increase in sales volumes recently reported it must have been the last thing on the minds of the staff.
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Post by gasincider on Jul 21, 2020 10:22:47 GMT
At least two more in the pipeline including a certain winger
I hear Topper was worried about me. It's all the abuse, I just can't stand it.
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Post by gasincider on Jul 5, 2020 17:16:23 GMT
I took a drive over to look at the Colony today And it was very much full steam ahead. They have raise the ground level by a considerable amount on the right as you look through the gates where the new pitches will be. There were a number of blokes working, together with various pieces of plant. You could see the drainage channels in the stone base and there was a huge pile of what I assume was top soil in an area in front of where the changing room buildings were. Whether they have demolished those buildings can’t be seen, but I could see the roof of what I assume is the gymnasium behind a row of bushes and trees behind the new pitches. I believe the club has said the pitches will be ready for pre-season. It seems to me they’ll have to get a shift on for that to happen. I would think they will have to get a short term deal elsewhere until perhaps October to let the new pitches establish themselves. Finally, it’s apparent the club (Wael) is sinking some serious money into this, I can only hope there is the same intent regarding a new stadium. The buildings at the top end are still there, in the middle is the site office and toilets. the huge pile you are looking at is grit/gravel for drainage. That will then be covered by some sort of sand and then the grass will be planted. I asked about top soil soil and was told it hasn't been used for planting pitches for 20 years. (Interesting). Saturday before last, travellers tried to break in despite the fact they were confronted by two security staff. Police were called.Then last Wednesday night, some little sh*t got in and stole a couple of ladders. I pointed out where they probably got in, as there is a gap in the security fence. Unbelievably, the guy said they were not security. I reminded him it wasn't security's ladders that were stolen. He said he would report the gap to security.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 14:28:42 GMT
So at 10p a share, Wael has awarded himself 180 million shares? Crikey. It'll take a while to shift that lot if he ever decides to sell them. Have a look at the share prices in the paper. The 10p is not relevant.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 14:27:20 GMT
I know nothing!. However if I recall correctly Wael at takeover stated the Sainsbury matter did not affect UWE going forward. He also stated finance was in place to build the stadium. UWE failed for unknown reasons stated by Wael as UWE failure to agree and respond. Again if I recall correctly the UWE land would be leased on a 125 year lease and the funding of the build was Wael money, FA money and Sports Council money (and a n other money?). There was no mention of partnering with other interested parties such as developers. Thus the one difference I can see is the cost of land with regard to Fruit Market or any other site. So the outstanding question is does whatever any potential stadium site involve leasehold or purchase of land. If leasehold it is status quo (as per UWE costs) but additional capital if land has to be purchased. So does Wael have the additional money to purchase or does he need to partner with others to raise that capital? What do you know that makes you negative and it's unlikely? Finance rates are at an all time low. There have been many rumours (fantasy?) about associated hotels, sports centres shopping malls etc by Dwayne Sport or any new company that may be formed. The Fruit Market site is on the edge of a huge complete redevelopment of St Phillips Island and large redevelopment companies are poised to move in and regenerate this run down area as confirmed by Mr Mayor Marvin Rees himself who stated he is supportive of Rovers. UTG Agree with most of that. As I understand it, the deal was about the developer building the stadium, in return for the Mem, plus a balance of rent for want of a better word to cover the costs. The Mem is worth somewhere between £15-20m. The land at The Fruit Market has a cost of somewhere North of £55m. This would of course incorporate other businesses around it like at Bolton or MK Dons etc. Wael may or may not have the funding to square that circle, but if the developer and Wael come to an agreement, it could be a number of ways in which they may proceed. Wael could sell the Mem to them on the basis of them guaranteeing us a long term lease at the new stadium, subject to the ongoing cost per annum. But most importantly, would we keep the majority if not all the income generated by the new stadium. So he now has between £15-20m in his back pocket. But i I think the more likely scenario could be that Wael hands over the Mem on the basis of an agreed number of years on the new site, which would help the developer to mitigate his initial outlay. There are are many ways it can be done, but it all comes back to who is funding it, and what they may or may not demand in return. We certainly don't want to end up as another Coventry. The mayor has spoken many times that he wants to see a sport and leisure set up there, in fact it would become the new Bristol C*ty centre. Which is why it is an opportunity we cannot afford to miss. It would certainly be at the heart of the future Bristol, and one that Lansdown could never wish to emulate t'other side of the river. I am being cautious. This is Rovers, and we've had so many set backs, it's scary. I haven't said it's unlikely. In fact I'm pretty certain it will happen. If it doesn't, we have no real future, as we will die at the Mem. Wael knows that, so now it's on him. If he succeeds, I'll help erect the new statue on the centre. Now that would really water off the sh*theads.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 14:05:16 GMT
For our friend the accountant. Here's a few questions your view may be very relevant to in the ongoing situation. 1) Why has Wael capitalised the debt between 1883 and Ltd? 1883 owns the Mem, Ltd is the football club. 2)How many shares do Dwayne get in 1883 for £18.4 million? 3) Capitalising debt does not give answers to how the club pays for developing the training ground, or indeed pays the wages over the ensuing months together with additional running costs, so I assume either Wael hopefully is now wealthy enough to cover it all, or another investor may be covering it. I think that shareholders are entitled to ask the questions, but you view 1) because Wael has plans and is trying to reassure those that were worried that he is committed. Although i dont quite understand the question.its just a chain. Dwane loaned 1883 money, who in turn loan it to the FC. The 'missing' 2m between 1883 and the FC is probably taken up as Wonga/Sainsburys cost. Whats the problem again? 2) i beleive the ordinary share are 10p a pop. 3) who knows, but its a situation facing all clubs right now. Maybe the training ground is coming out of Wael's pocket As I say, I agree what happens next is important, but lets wait til we get some info before questioning everything and just accept Wael has done a nice thing. Any deals, can be questioned as and when, but it seems, much like the Colony, sh** is going to get done one way or another and we wont hear until things happen instead of having people leaking all sorts of nonsense over the internet Actually the club are owed money by Dwayne. As for the shares being 10p, totally irrelevant. It's basically a description. Thinking back in time, I believe that it was a base price for newly issued shares. But Im Going on memory there. Whether it still carries that element of clout I can't remember. I have not denigrated Wael on any of this. Reread it. I've said if Wael is funding the training ground, I've no problem with it. I'm worried about possible new investors and what hold they may or may not have. I think if Wael is to borrow in a meaningful sense, then I hope he's getting better advice than NH and his bloody wonga loan. I assume that the club will pay a fee for use of the training ground in order to fund it. Again no problem, if it's not a ridiculously high figure. We currently pay about £50k per year at Cribbs. To fund the £2m approx at the Colony, we would have to pay in excess of £100k per annum. Unless of course, Wael is covering the cost. If he is, he would deservedly earn the grateful thanks of all gasheads.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 13:46:53 GMT
Anything is possible. I have thought about this. If we assume that our friendly developer builds the stadium but Wael runs the club, and takes up a lease on the new stadium, I think both guys would be reasonably happy, subject to the debt issue. Its all well and good the club paying to operate from the new stadium, but the developer would need to be confident in the clubs owner. If the club went bust, the developer would be left with an empty stadium and no one repaying the cost of building it. What then happens? Yes indeed. My (very limited) understanding was that the FM Developers wanted the stadium and club as part of the overall development and as part of their business plan. I have no proof of that, but the delay in the FM sale going through, the linked development of the new training ground and the "sorting" of the balance sheet to at the club gives some hope to this. I hope. This was my understanding as well, though the training ground was never part of the deal.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 13:44:54 GMT
For our friend the accountant. Here's a few questions your view may be very relevant to in the ongoing situation. 1) Why has Wael capitalised the debt between 1883 and Ltd? 1883 owns the Mem, Ltd is the football club. 2)How many shares do Dwayne get in 1883 for £18.4 million? 3) Capitalising debt does not give answers to how the club pays for developing the training ground, or indeed pays the wages over the ensuing months together with additional running costs, so I assume either Wael hopefully is now wealthy enough to cover it all, or another investor may be covering it.I think that shareholders are entitled to ask the questions, but you view would be interesting Seriously are you a screw loose or something, Wael clears £18m of debts, writes off £2m of interest, is committed to spending £2m+ on a new training ground but you are questioning whether he can pay the wage bill over the summer, having spent over £20m do you seriously think he's then going to struggle to find the £1m or so for the wages, it does beggar belief what you are posting on this thread. Sorry Topper. I thought your level of knowledge was better than that. You just have no idea, so not worth responding to.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 12:43:21 GMT
Problem? I said it makes no difference as he has still carried the debt. Again it will be interesting to see if another charge is put against the stadium. That in itself will not be the pits, depending who the investors are. It's a case of how the monies raised are spent. And as I say, I just hope he is getting good advice. Do you think he might leverage an equity swap with the FM Developers, utilising the development value of the Mem footprint? Anything is possible. I have thought about this. If we assume that our friendly developer builds the stadium but Wael runs the club, and takes up a lease on the new stadium, I think both guys would be reasonably happy, subject to the debt issue. Its all well and good the club paying to operate from the new stadium, but the developer would need to be confident in the clubs owner. If the club went bust, the developer would be left with an empty stadium and no one repaying the cost of building it. What then happens?
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 12:36:19 GMT
For our friend the accountant. Here's a few questions your view may be very relevant to in the ongoing situation.
1) Why has Wael capitalised the debt between 1883 and Ltd? 1883 owns the Mem, Ltd is the football club.
2)How many shares do Dwayne get in 1883 for £18.4 million?
3) Capitalising debt does not give answers to how the club pays for developing the training ground, or indeed pays the wages over the ensuing months together with additional running costs, so I assume either Wael hopefully is now wealthy enough to cover it all, or another investor may be covering it.
I think that shareholders are entitled to ask the questions, but you view would be interesting
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 12:25:46 GMT
Of course he could, but don't think he will. I was pointing out that clearing the debt made no difference Then why did you have such a problem with it? Problem? I said it makes no difference as he has still carried the debt. Again it will be interesting to see if another charge is put against the stadium. That in itself will not be the pits, depending who the investors are. It's a case of how the monies raised are spent. And as I say, I just hope he is getting good advice.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 12:21:37 GMT
I have a reasonable idea- I'm an accountant. My point was not about the operations of companies. To be honest, I think football clubs are not like usual companies and the comparisons whilst work on a level are clumsy. The point I was making is that you had been throwing the accusation of debt at Wael for a long time and now hes written it off. A consistent person would say that's better, or thanks. However, now you state the issue you have been banging on about for 18 months to be trivial matter. Its beyond belief. It's beyond belief that you are an accountant and can't see an issue with how the debt rocketed up so quickly. I'd worry for your clients. Nobody said it is trivial, I asked why he's cleared it now when it makes no real difference other than to remove the charge on the Mem. It was awful how it grew so quickly, but that wasn't just down to Wael, as he wasn't in charge. Now he is, and I hope he's taking sensible advise as to the future.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 12:14:09 GMT
He still owns the Mem, our only viable asset. He didn't own the Mem before this transaction. Ownership of the Mem was indirectly vested in Dwayne Sports as the shareholder. Wael didn;t have control over Dwayne Sports. Furthermore Dwayne Sports also had a charge on the Mem to cover debt. The difference now is that WAQ has control over Dwayne Sports as the majority shareholder of that Company. The other difference is that there would no longer appear to be a charge over the Mem and, I think, the direct ownership is still vested in one of the two BRFC Companies. What you are implying is that he could sell the Mem to realise some of the value in the shares that he owns. But you could say that of any potential owner of any football club. I personally trust that this statement of commitment is a statement that he will not do that. He can sell his shares in Dwayne Sports but the Mem stays where it is. Of course he could, but don't think he will. I was pointing out that clearing the debt made no difference
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 10:52:21 GMT
He still owns the Mem, our only viable asset. Thought you said the charge should go to allow for investment. Unless of course the charge is just a "paper exercise". I said our club is in the same position today as it was yesterday. So ask yourself, why has Wael now capitalised the debt? The only answer I can come up with is it removes the charge on the Mem, thus opening it up to possible investors to have any funding they make to be guaranteed against our only viable asset. If Wael is funding everything himself yesterday makes no difference to us as a club ongoing. The debt was all internal. There will obviously have been a cost to Wael in terms of buying up his family interests in the club, unless they just wished to wash their hands of it, but that could have been achieved in several different ways, and rightly should only be known to the family. Our only concerns are whatever relates to our club.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 10:42:53 GMT
Things I have discovered from reading gasinciders posts on this forum over the years. 1 - even a stopped clock is right twice a day. 2 - if you have nothing good to say about someone, it's probably best to say nothing at all, speaking bad can end up causing damage plus resentment from others. 3 - if you say it often enough it must be true as repetition makes a fact seem more true, regardless of whether it is or not. 4 - if you have a broken record try buying a new one, honestly, it will sound better. Apart from all this bullshit, argue the points I've raised, or you add nothing to the debate.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 10:40:57 GMT
GI- it would not be difficult to find several posts where you have critiqued the creation of debt. Now that Wael has "uncreated" it you are saying it doesnt matter and makes no difference. I find it incredible how people forget their own words in all of this. I'll confirm it here. It was absolutely awful that a debt so large could be accumulated in so short a time. It was a recipe for disaster. Once the debt was there, it was a paper exercise that makes no difference to the club. The only possible reason I can think of, is that there may shortly be a knew charge put in place. I hope not, but that will be decided by Waels own financial position. It's not even a bad thing necessarily, depending on who the new investors are. Do you understand how companies operate?
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 10:32:26 GMT
It was pretty clear people were trying to destabilise the club and force Wael out too. Fair play to him, lesser men would have walked. Perhaps it's time for Wael to man up and tell certain people they are no longer welcome at the Mem? There's clearly been a campaign by Knowall/Fanatical, Gasincider, Jim Chappell, & KM to undermine Wael, are they really Rovers supporters or just concerned with looking after their own interests, whatever they may be? One thing for certain is the SC needs disbanding and replaced with a new organisation. Here we go. The answer to everything is to ban people. Thank you for your constructive comments. If you want to be a nodding donkey, feel free. One of the guys who changes his opinions more often than his socks. If companies are not held to account, or in our case, football clubs, they become closet dictatorships that learn nothing and slide into chaos. Our previous owner did that with his attitude of 'it's my money I'll do it my way'. I just hope Wael has learnt from what's gone before and brings us the success we all crave.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 10:26:09 GMT
Financially, Wael has written off any chance that he had to recoup his money by calling in debt. He still owns the Mem, our only viable asset.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 10:16:43 GMT
Pure speculation on my part There has been long time hair pulling out over a massive debt. Massive abuse. The debt is removed and it now seems it never was a debt by some! Waverers switching side from pessimist to optimist. Anyone with construction knowledge would know that a fruit market would be a steel framed building on an industrial site with outline planning use already agreed. Construction would be achieved in much less than 10 months not the 10 years stated. Some industrial developers have buildings already built standing empty waiting for a tenant either for lease or purchase. Move in within the month. Stadiums as we all now know would take longer but if a site was about to be purchased most of the planning and outline design ground work would have been already "agreed" by Planning Dept in private meetings. If as suggested a site is about to be agreed 2 years for the construction would be well within realistic time frames for a first home game 3 seasons away. 2 seasons away might be possible is the stadium is phased with only say 2 sides built You are of course correct. In fact I was told that on completion of a deal, the companies at the fruit market would have 12 months to relocate, and then construction to begin. The 5-10 year bit is what was in the email to the managers at the fruit market. I find that ridiculous, as I said at the time. Why would anyone tie money up for that length of time with nothing to show for it. It would be be great if Wael could buy the land and build the stadium himself. The reality is that that is not likely. So my whole point is, who is currently funding us? If it's Wael, ok. If it's not I just hope it's not another Charlton Athketic situation that almost brought the club down.
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Post by gasincider on Jun 20, 2020 10:10:10 GMT
GI, you're clearly a smart bloke and know a thing or two about business. I already read your posts with intrigue, although I certainly don't agree with most of them. However, when you say "Our club today, in reality, is in the same place as it was yesterday" - I'm genuinely baffled by this statement. I think the overall point you're trying to make is a good one, and it's correct. But as many have said, it's tainted by general negativity over Wael's actions, rather than seeing this a fresh start where we can learn from out mistakes. Fair question. The reason I said the debt situation hasn't changed anything, was because the debt was internal. In other words, as the whole debt was Waels, it didn't matter. As an exercise in making us more marketable, it certainly helps. Moreso if Wael is looking for investors. It means the charge on the Mem, our only viable asset, is gone, and the ground is now unencumbered. It can therefore be used as a guarantee for any potential new investor. I'm not saying it will be, just that it can be. With regard to your last point, due to various issues raised over the years I have not been convinced by Wael. Now that he has taken over from Hani, it could be as 'Feeling the Blues' has stated, that he is no longer being held back by other people, and it might well be the renaissance that Wael has needed. I hope so, because that would mean we would all benefit.
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