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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 5:26:16 GMT
I realize I'm probably opening myself up for attack here, but if Trump and Putin both hate the EU I can't help but think the EU is probably a good thing. Oooh. Now that's worthy of a thread. I wonder why Johnson, Reese-Mogg, Aaron Banks, Putin and Trump hate structures which defy their self interest. I wonder. Oh please, just because someone doesn't agree with you it doesn't mean that their opinions or views are just 'self interest'. The Brexit issue is far too important for baseless personal insults. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 27, 2018 5:46:09 GMT
Oooh. Now that's worthy of a thread. I wonder why Johnson, Reese-Mogg, Aaron Banks, Putin and Trump hate structures which defy their self interest. I wonder. Oh please, just because someone doesn't agree with you it doesn't mean that their opinions or views are just 'self interest'. The Brexit issue is far too important for baseless personal insults. Typical for you to say. Ya bellend. Trololol |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 5:54:01 GMT
So, what state are we in regarding the Brexit negotiations with the EU?
PM May's proposals have been shot down by Barnier (and therefore the EU). Not surprisingly, they see these proposals as just the start of the negotiations, and therefore think they can make May back down even more. Unfortunately, May's proposals are as far as she can ever go. She just cannot give any more ground. It all makes a 'clean break' even more likely.
In my opinion, the EU will reject each and every proposal made by the UK. Their intention all along has been to attempt to humiliate the UK. The EU will only agree to proposals that keep the UK 'locked into' the EU. How on earth the UK agreed to a 39 billion 'divorce payment' without that payment being linked to a trade deal is beyond me.
The government have screwed up every advantage they had in the negotiations. I do not think there will be any serious agreement made while we are still in this phony 'negotiation' stage. We should walk away now, leave a business card, and tell them to ring us when they are serious about making a deal. In the meantime, we revert to WTO rules, which are the same rules we trade with the majority of the rest of the world. It may mean short term pain for some, but in the long term, we will all benefit. I think "for the many, not the few" is a popular cry nowadays?
I think the UK have now made four separate proposals regarding the Irish border, and all have been rejected by the EU. The EU have not made a single proposal regarding the Irish border. This is not 'negotiating'. The EU are just seeing how far they can make the UK government bend over ! It's pretty obvious what is happening.
May, as a Prime Minister and leader of her party, is finished. She has lost all credibility.
Walk away now and let the EU play their petty games on their own. It's time to become a fully independent sovereign nation once again. Onwards and upwards.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 5:54:46 GMT
Oh please, just because someone doesn't agree with you it doesn't mean that their opinions or views are just 'self interest'. The Brexit issue is far too important for baseless personal insults. Typical for you to say. Ya bellend. Trololol <iframe width="26.1400000000001" height="6.439999999999998" style="position: absolute; width: 26.1400000000001px; height: 6.439999999999998px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_49514432" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="26.1400000000001" height="6.439999999999998" style="position: absolute; width: 26.14px; height: 6.44px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1244px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_20621720" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="26.1400000000001" height="6.439999999999998" style="position: absolute; width: 26.14px; height: 6.44px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 259px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_64105518" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="26.1400000000001" height="6.439999999999998" style="position: absolute; width: 26.14px; height: 6.44px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1244px; top: 259px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_92703670" scrolling="no"></iframe> To be fair, that is not a baseless insult is it  |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 27, 2018 6:32:03 GMT
So, what state are we in regarding the Brexit negotiations with the EU? PM May's proposals have been shot down by Barnier (and therefore the EU). Not surprisingly, they see these proposals as just the start of the negotiations, and therefore think they can make May back down even more. Unfortunately, May's proposals are as far as she can ever go. She just cannot give any more ground. It all makes a 'clean break' even more likely. In my opinion, the EU will reject each and every proposal made by the UK. Their intention all along has been to attempt to humiliate the UK. The EU will only agree to proposals that keep the UK 'locked into' the EU. How on earth the UK agreed to a 39 billion 'divorce payment' without that payment being linked to a trade deal is beyond me. The government have screwed up every advantage they had in the negotiations. I do not think there will be any serious agreement made while we are still in this phony 'negotiation' stage. We should walk away now, leave a business card, and tell them to ring us when they are serious about making a deal. In the meantime, we revert to WTO rules, which are the same rules we trade with the majority of the rest of the world. It may mean short term pain for some, but in the long term, we will all benefit. I think "for the many, not the few" is a popular cry nowadays? I think the UK have now made four separate proposals regarding the Irish border, and all have been rejected by the EU. The EU have not made a single proposal regarding the Irish border. This is not 'negotiating'. The EU are just seeing how far they can make the UK government bend over ! It's pretty obvious what is happening. May, as a Prime Minister and leader of her party, is finished. She has lost all credibility. Walk away now and let the EU play their petty games on their own. It's time to become a fully independent sovereign nation once again. Onwards and upwards. As a remainer I'd have to say I agree with this. We are in this situation and have to now be strong and sort it out. The EU were always going to f**k us over if we voted leave. The last 2 governments have really messed this up. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 8:39:32 GMT
So, what state are we in regarding the Brexit negotiations with the EU? PM May's proposals have been shot down by Barnier (and therefore the EU). Not surprisingly, they see these proposals as just the start of the negotiations, and therefore think they can make May back down even more. Unfortunately, May's proposals are as far as she can ever go. She just cannot give any more ground. It all makes a 'clean break' even more likely. In my opinion, the EU will reject each and every proposal made by the UK. Their intention all along has been to attempt to humiliate the UK. The EU will only agree to proposals that keep the UK 'locked into' the EU. How on earth the UK agreed to a 39 billion 'divorce payment' without that payment being linked to a trade deal is beyond me. The government have screwed up every advantage they had in the negotiations. I do not think there will be any serious agreement made while we are still in this phony 'negotiation' stage. We should walk away now, leave a business card, and tell them to ring us when they are serious about making a deal. In the meantime, we revert to WTO rules, which are the same rules we trade with the majority of the rest of the world. It may mean short term pain for some, but in the long term, we will all benefit. I think "for the many, not the few" is a popular cry nowadays? I think the UK have now made four separate proposals regarding the Irish border, and all have been rejected by the EU. The EU have not made a single proposal regarding the Irish border. This is not 'negotiating'. The EU are just seeing how far they can make the UK government bend over ! It's pretty obvious what is happening. May, as a Prime Minister and leader of her party, is finished. She has lost all credibility. Walk away now and let the EU play their petty games on their own. It's time to become a fully independent sovereign nation once again. Onwards and upwards. I am afraid I do not agree. This to me is just flag waving rhetoric. On WTO I do think, as Nobby has done, people state this without really knowing or if they do, never articulate exactly how this will work. Take food costs, perhaps the biggest single item that will affect the average person in the UK. Under WTO rules the UK would not be able to set tariffs that discriminate between trading partners except as part of a free trade agreement (which we have right now with the EU). If we walk away from a free trade deal with the EU then the UK will, under WTO rules, have to apply the same tariff as we apply to non EU countries currently. Unless we go for a complete free trade deal and allow unlimited zero tariffs across all imports regardless of origin. Currently 70% of food imports originate from the EU. As a result food prices would rise significantly. I have seen a report where cheese, of which the West Country exports a considerable amount to France, has a 44% tariff, and of course in reverse the other way. Alternatively we could import cheaper products (the % on a lower initial cost being the benefit) from countries that do not have the same regulatory standards, which wipes out the gain in quality and animal welfare achieved over the last 25 years. So what would this mean, in real terms. Lets face it the biggest impact would be those on average incomes or below. Add on to this that under this government in real terms incomes have only recently recovered to 2008 levels, a frightening statistic. The squeeze has been horrendous and the resultant debt to income ratios have risen again and "bankruptcy" for so many is one pay packet away. Food banks anyone? Of course the impact on the people who form the rump of the hard line Brexiteers in the Tory party will be minimal, or of little consequence. They wave the flag at the lower income groups, even accuse those of us who support remain of treason (Tory MEP) and suggest, without humour, we should be held to account in the same way as an Islamic Jihadi. This latest tactic by the Brexiteers appears to be, "look, this is a f**k up, and yes our party of choice is a bloody mess. Lets just leave and be great again" Don't fall for it. Its bullshit. Remember, even Reese - Mogg under pressure had to admit the economic benefits of leaving the EU may take to 50 years to accrue. That's just the economics. On the social side we are leaving ourselves open to creeping nationalism which manifests itself in vile organisations like the EDL. You can witness exactly this by some of the comments posted on here by members of this forum. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 9:06:29 GMT
So, what state are we in regarding the Brexit negotiations with the EU? PM May's proposals have been shot down by Barnier (and therefore the EU). Not surprisingly, they see these proposals as just the start of the negotiations, and therefore think they can make May back down even more. Unfortunately, May's proposals are as far as she can ever go. She just cannot give any more ground. It all makes a 'clean break' even more likely. In my opinion, the EU will reject each and every proposal made by the UK. Their intention all along has been to attempt to humiliate the UK. The EU will only agree to proposals that keep the UK 'locked into' the EU. How on earth the UK agreed to a 39 billion 'divorce payment' without that payment being linked to a trade deal is beyond me. The government have screwed up every advantage they had in the negotiations. I do not think there will be any serious agreement made while we are still in this phony 'negotiation' stage. We should walk away now, leave a business card, and tell them to ring us when they are serious about making a deal. In the meantime, we revert to WTO rules, which are the same rules we trade with the majority of the rest of the world. It may mean short term pain for some, but in the long term, we will all benefit. I think "for the many, not the few" is a popular cry nowadays? I think the UK have now made four separate proposals regarding the Irish border, and all have been rejected by the EU. The EU have not made a single proposal regarding the Irish border. This is not 'negotiating'. The EU are just seeing how far they can make the UK government bend over ! It's pretty obvious what is happening. May, as a Prime Minister and leader of her party, is finished. She has lost all credibility. Walk away now and let the EU play their petty games on their own. It's time to become a fully independent sovereign nation once again. Onwards and upwards. I am afraid I do not agree. This to me is just flag waving rhetoric. On WTO I do think, as Nobby has done, people state this without really knowing or if they do, never articulate exactly how this will work. Take food costs, perhaps the biggest single item that will affect the average person in the UK. Under WTO rules the UK would not be able to set tariffs that discriminate between trading partners except as part of a free trade agreement (which we have right now with the EU). If we walk away from a free trade deal with the EU then the UK will, under WTO rules, have to apply the same tariff as we apply to non EU countries currently. Unless we go for a complete free trade deal and allow unlimited zero tariffs across all imports regardless of origin. Currently 70% of food imports originate from the EU. As a result food prices would rise significantly. I have seen a report where cheese, of which the West Country exports a considerable amount to France, has a 44% tariff, and of course in reverse the other way. Alternatively we could import cheaper products (the % on a lower initial cost being the benefit) from countries that do not have the same regulatory standards, which wipes out the gain in quality and animal welfare achieved over the last 25 years. So what would this mean, in real terms. Lets face it the biggest impact would be those on average incomes or below. Add on to this that under this government in real terms incomes have only recently recovered to 2008 levels, a frightening statistic. The squeeze has been horrendous and the resultant debt to income ratios have risen again and "bankruptcy" for so many is one pay packet away. Food banks anyone? Of course the impact on the people who form the rump of the hard line Brexiteers in the Tory party will be minimal, or of little consequence. They wave the flag at the lower income groups, even accuse those of us who support remain of treason (Tory MEP) and suggest, without humour, we should be held to account in the same way as an Islamic Jihadi. This latest tactic by the Brexiteers appears to be, "look, this is a f**k up, and yes our party of choice is a bloody mess. Lets just leave and be great again" Don't fall for it. Its bullshit. Remember, even Reese - Mogg under pressure had to admit the economic benefits of leaving the EU may take to 50 years to accrue. That's just the economics. On the social side we are leaving ourselves open to creeping nationalism which manifests itself in vile organisations like the EDL. You can witness exactly this by some of the comments posted on here by members of this forum. As for WTO rules and Tariff's, you just have to see how Trump treated the EU this last week. Beforehand, the EU put Tariff's on US cars coming into Europe, with no Tariff's being charged to EU cars going to the US. First the US approach the EU to rectify this, only to be asked by the EU what the US will give in return....Trump blew his top, threatened a Trade War, and the EU flew to Washington, and in 24 hours it was all resolved with the EU removing the Tariff's on US cars coming into Europe. When push comes to shove, the EU will back down when it is obvious that you can hurt them. Trump has just proven this. The EU already impose Tariff's on many goods coming into the EU. It's called the Common External Tariff. All goods coming into Britain from outside the EU are subject to tariffs, designed to protect European industries from cheaper competition. We can get rid of the Common External Tariff's on day one. No Oldie. You are taking the words of Rees-Mogg out of context. Here is the transcript of what was actually said:- "Rees-Mogg: “We will know at some point, of course we will. But it’s a question of timescale.” Guru-Murthy: “So how long have you got?” Rees-Mogg: “We won’t know the full economic consequences for a very long time, we really won’t.” Guru-Murthy: “Of course not, but I mean we’ll have an indication. We’ll know if there’s been chaos, we’ll know if there have been job losses.” Rees-Mogg: “The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.” He is not saying it will take 50 years, but that in the next 50 years there will be 'overwhelming opportunities". Not quite the same thing eh? "On the social side we are leaving ourselves open to creeping nationalism which manifests itself in vile organisations like the EDL."maybe you can re-word that, "On the social side we are leaving ourselves open to creeping Communism which manifests itself in vile organisations like the Labour Party." Nothing like labeling those who have a different opinion to you as right-wing nut jobs eh ? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 9:37:38 GMT
Honestly, I don't think there is anything to learn from Trump. I mean, seriously.
He appears to have fallen back to Obama's Trade negotiations, which he cancelled last year. In effect you promoting Trump who would break WTO rules without hesitation and at the same time saying the UK can fall safely backbto those rules!! Go figure.
On Reese-Mogg. I should have said "up to 50 years" Not sure that is anymore reassuring.
As for the communist jibe, well really?
You really think that those of us who oppose the likes of the EDL, or call out racism or bigotry generally are communists?
Really?
So Nobby, back to basics. Are you suggesting the EU will enter into a free trade agreement with the UK without a customs union and free movement of labour?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 9:57:48 GMT
Honestly, I don't think there is anything to learn from Trump. I mean, seriously. He appears to have fallen back to Obama's Trade negotiations, which he cancelled last year. In effect you promoting Trump who would break WTO rules without hesitation and at the same time saying the UK can fall safely backbto those rules!! Go figure. On Reese-Mogg. I should have said "up to 50 years" Not sure that is anymore reassuring. As for the communist jibe, well really? You really think that those of us who oppose the likes of the EDL, or call out racism or bigotry generally are communists? Really? So Nobby, back to basics. Are you suggesting the EU will enter into a free trade agreement with the UK without a customs union and free movement of labour? No, I'm not. I'm just pointing out that these ridiculous scare stories are just that, ridiculous. " So Nobby, back to basics. Are you suggesting the EU will enter into a free trade agreement with the UK without a customs union and free movement of labour?"
Yes, but it will never happen under the current phony 'negotiations'. It will only happen when we leave the EU. Haven't the EU just signed a deal with Japan, with Japan not having a Custom's Union, nor accepting Free Movement from the EU? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 10:38:40 GMT
Interesting critique of the WTO in this article and Trumps antics. And of course China's behaviour. Frying pan and fire anyone? Canada Cuts U.S., China Out of Talks on Reforming Global Trade flip.it/suXk.r |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 11:29:07 GMT
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Post by jaggas on Jul 27, 2018 18:14:10 GMT
The chairman of the WTO has confirmed leaving the EU and moving onto WTO rules will be smooth and fast and business will not be interrupted.
Similar people were saying the same about not scrapping the pound and adopting the euro and were proved right.I can recall Oldie and the other lefties like Rick and Sladey on the original rovers forum predicting disaster if we didnt join the euro.Going as far as to call people wanting to keep the pound as racist xenophobes who go misty eyed at the sight of the queen on a tenner.
No deal is a real possibility now if May has the balls to walk away.This is the best thing that could happen as Barnier and co will be lynched by European businesses who depend on the UK for their futures.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 18:38:11 GMT
The chairman of the WTO has confirmed leaving the EU and moving onto WTO rules will be smooth and fast and business will not be interrupted. Similar people were saying the same about not scrapping the pound and adopting the euro and were proved right.I can recall Oldie and the other lefties like Rick and Sladey on the original rovers forum predicting disaster if we didnt join the euro.Going as far as to call people wanting to keep the pound as racist xenophobes who go misty eyed at the sight of the queen on a tenner. No deal is a real possibility now if May has the balls to walk away.This is the best thing that could happen as Barnier and co will be lynched by European businesses who depend on the UK for their futures. Me a leftie.😂😂😂😂 I quoted the WTO rules, you stated your opinion. Noted🤔 |
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Post by aghast on Jul 27, 2018 20:38:06 GMT
Total feckup. When it goes wrong, blame the EU, the Liberals, the Left, the snowflakes, the current government, the previous government, Blair's goverment, or indeed anyone you care to choose. But don't blame yourself for voting for this catastrophe. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 21:04:25 GMT
Total feckup. When it goes wrong, blame the EU, the Liberals, the Left, the snowflakes, the current government, the previous government, Blair's goverment, or indeed anyone you care to choose. But don't blame yourself for voting for this catastrophe. Precisely sir 👍 |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 27, 2018 21:04:29 GMT
Total feckup. When it goes wrong, blame the EU, the Liberals, the Left, the snowflakes, the current government, the previous government, Blair's goverment, or indeed anyone you care to choose. But don't blame yourself for voting for this catastrophe. Welcome to the madhouse. |
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Post by aghast on Jul 27, 2018 21:13:21 GMT
Total feckup. When it goes wrong, blame the EU, the Liberals, the Left, the snowflakes, the current government, the previous government, Blair's goverment, or indeed anyone you care to choose. But don't blame yourself for voting for this catastrophe. Welcome to the madhouse. I felt like dipping my toe back in again. |
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Post by jaggas on Jul 29, 2018 20:47:09 GMT
Back to Brexit can anyone remember during the referendum debates the remain campaign telling us that the EU had hardly any control over the UK yet now we are being told they can starve us of food and medicine if we leave? Lies then and lies now as project fear ramps it up.They still wont tell you that the majority of Europes insulin is manufactured here in the UK so if we get no food and medicine from the wonderful EU we are told we should remain part of starve us and make us ill because they are spiteful nasty lady gardens then all the diabetics in Europe will die if we reciprocate.
Its all bollox as the EU coudn`t possibly starve a nation that is self sufficient nor could it make everyone ill when we manufacture our own medicine and can buy what we don`t have elsewhere.
The scaremongering is now at fever pitch from the remainers as we head to what the nation voted for a no deal Brexit and to leave the rotten nasty spiteful EU for good.
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Post by aghast on Jul 29, 2018 21:14:45 GMT
When we leave the EU, the only food we will have is steak and kidney pie, and chips.
Fact.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 29, 2018 21:17:01 GMT
Lucky we have those always truthful and trustworthy Leavers on hand to sort things out.
Over to you Nige and Boris.....
Boris...
Boris???
Oh, they all seem to have scuttled off.....
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