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Post by inee on Jul 26, 2018 16:26:46 GMT
What an ill thought out comparison as you rush to defend halal meat. Non free range is labelled as such so the consumer can make an informed choice based on their principles on whether to purchase it or not. That is not the case with halal products. I'm not rushing to defend anything. I'm pointing out hypocrisy in saying this way of treating animals like sh** is worse than this other way of treating animals like sh**. I'm not arsed at all about halal meat. They can bless it all they like, it still tastes like chicken. If you are that bothered, just eat sausages. Hugo if you had to choose i a bolt through your head or a slit throat so you would bleed out slowly ,which would you want ,i will say both ways are horrible ways of dying but one is much quicker less painful than the other. Some of us me included have a deep seated hatred of religion ,more atrocities ,theft ,sex crimes have been carried out in the name of religion than any other way ,belief in gods started as a way to scare and oppress people and still do today to some extent dependant on if you were brainwashed as a kid or not (all religions not just one) , so forgive me if i find it rather distasteful and deeply offensive if meat i buy is blessed , i avoid any meat from new zealand ,i would rather go without than buy their meat as it's all halal ,and yes it may taste the same but kosher or halal leave a very bitter taste in taste in my mouth as i shouldn't have to ask in this country whether my meat is slaughtered according to our ways ,You say just eat sausaes now that is a minefield as many will use lamb casings which may or may not have been blessed. |
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Post by inee on Jul 26, 2018 16:34:46 GMT
No, I think the point that's being made that I do understand is that there is no choice. It's not regulated or labelled in the same way the battery/free range is. For example, KFC only do halal meat. It's not labelled and there is no choice. I still don't see what difference it would make if KFC sold battery chicken as both are cruel. It still would not be labelled and still would not be a choice but is somehow better. I would go a step further. I would say consumers should stop being so effing stupid and take responsibility themselves for what they eat. KFC products are unhealthy sh**, Halal or not. As an example. Buy your own food, cook your own food, know what you are eating. It's easy I'm agreeing with you here ,it maddens me how many people are too lazy to cook ,i know people who will have microwave meals so that's 8 or 9 minutes cooking each individually . In less time you could have meal for the family cheaper and quicker. I will never understand why people buy spuds in supermarkets ,a kilo is around £1 or £1.50 ,so if you buy 7 bags a month you can buy a whole sack in a greengrocers for around £7 most of the year ,or buy with friends or family and a whole bag becomes so much cheaper , is it so difficult for people to realise cooking fresh is not only cheaper in the long run ,but healthier and gives a time when everyone can sit down and talk. |
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Post by inee on Jul 26, 2018 16:43:19 GMT
No, I think the point that's being made that I do understand is that there is no choice. It's not regulated or labelled in the same way the battery/free range is. For example, KFC only do halal meat. It's not labelled and there is no choice. I still don't see what difference it would make if KFC sold battery chicken as both are cruel. It still would not be labelled and still would not be a choice but is somehow better. Some kfc stores are non halal so again if you look into it you can buy non halal kfc.Nandos is the same check the website and you will find the non halal restaurants.The Nandos local to me is in an area with very few if any Muslims yet the chicken served there is halal which makes no sense. The point you both seem to be missing is halal meat is in the general food chain and is not being labelled as such.This is disgraceful as this meat is slaughtered in a way to satisfy 5% of the people who live in the UK. Their book says if halal is not available they can eat the meat on offer so there is a simple solution.Your attitude of eat sausages instead shows how dim the pair of you are. Nearly the book say along the lines of ,if there is no halal meat in the country you are in you can eat kosher as it has been killed in the same way ,if there is neither of those you can still eat meat as long as you clean it and bless it yourselves or go without ,as i said in another post if the sausage casings are lamb then odds on it is halal a real minefield. |
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Post by jaggas on Jul 26, 2018 17:49:54 GMT
It sure is like you I stopped buying and eating New Zealand lamb about 12 years go. After finding out that due to laziness and appeasement rather than send us normal lamb it was easier to bless the lot then let it bleed out so all their lamb could be used by a minority who insist on this kind of meat....Disgusting.
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Post by inee on Jul 26, 2018 18:21:53 GMT
I take it by your comments that you have never lived in country where the rule of law is not applied democratically? If not I will pull rank on you and state that I have, not only was it a near fascist state but a theocracy at that. As for the demand for justice for sex crimes, your allegation of greater rights than the victim is preposterous. The truth is your version of justice is revenge, an idea that we, in the UK, moved away from centuries ago. Rather strangely your view absolutely corresponds to the Sharia Law version of justice where revenge is absolutely the response. Contradictory to your view of Islam? Totally. But absolutists share a common thread. Autocracy.
Nope never have or will visit foreign countries as there is too much of this country i havent seen or visited ,not trying to pull rank as you say ,however do you know anyone who has been a victim of a sex crime ,who believes that justice has been served with a soft sentance ,whatever you say an offender if caught and convicted gets more rights than the victim ,prison is soft these days ,rules are harder on the staff than the offenders ,the victim seldom get any help whatsoever ,instead left to sort themselves out ,many people do not and will never understant the damage these assaults cause people it's not something that you can click your fingers and say whoppee i feel justice has been done ,in many cases the victims only feel any sort of justice when the offender dies as then and only then can they begin to lose the fear ,my type of justice was carried out in this country until very recently as a side note horfield prison has i believe only in the last few years emptied out their gallows room.
I would disagree and say if anything my version of justice has been practiced for a long long time before islam was invented so nope not sharia law
The fundamental point you are making, again, is that you are not happy with the legislature, the executive and the judiciary. The separation of these three fundamental pillars of government are essential to a healthy democracy (as you probably believe, correctly, in a theocracy, Islamic or otherwise, they are not)
As citizens it is absolutely correct that we do not, cannot influence or undermine the independence of the Judiciary. Our role is to vote in the legislature, the executive role is to govern by the rules passed by the legislature, it is the Judiciary to interpret and then apply the tariff when those laws are broken. Independently. To change the rules you vote in the government to just that. If you lose the vote you accept, in a democracy, the outcome. You appear not to. That is my friend anarchy at best, criminal at worst.
I would hazard a guess and say that the majority of people do not believe in or accept certain laws it does not make them anarchist ,it means they are free thinking ,lets go to another responce of yours concerning sentancing do you believe or agree that every sentance handed down by the courts in this countery is fair and just ,do you believe that say two peole commit the same offence they get different sentances ,do you agree that a short while back burglary became an offence that was largely ignored by the police, there are many examples of this that can be looked up.
You say anarchy at best criminal at worst .then go on to praise those who have commited those acts ,you object to my views but support people who have violently taken the law into their hand as well as being active terrorists the first bomb edused on uk soil in 1914 was set off by those you applaud.
I refer to my previous comment. The UK did not end up a making a reasonable stab at democracy by accident. In our past many people were killed (The Peterloo Massacre) deported (Tolpuddle Martyrs), stripped of livelihoods (Union Membership) or willingly died for the cause (Suffragette). Whilst I completely share your views on the disgrace of empire as we acted it out, that is not what I am talking about and you know it. Its the hard won rights of the "ordinary" citizen, a description you and I share, that your views the people who enabled those rights would be embarrassed by. The "no one to vote for" refers to Brexit, where all political parties and protagonists on both sides of the debate are a disgrace. Vote I will given the opportunity, but the way this is going I very much doubt that I will be allowed to given that our Parliamentary legislature has been hijacked by 40 or so hard right extremists in the Tory Party and opposed by a few idiots in the Labour Party.
I beg to differ there i believe in one man one vote and unlike some will never seek to change it , i doubt for one minute those you speak of would dissagree with my views on crime and punishment as they themselves were more violent than i'm advocating for certain types of crime ,i also suspect more than a few attended and cheered at public executions and as mentioned by myself above some actively took part in terrorist actions.
Absolutely wrong. I quote Voltaire and believe in it with a passion. Time and time again, the more one allows extremists the exposure to express their views, the more the fool they make of themselves. You may recall Nick Griffin on question time. Made an utter fool of himself and destroyed his vile party. Lovely. Don't jump out of your pram about the inference that you are an extremist, I don't know that. But you do come across as angry, and may I say confused. Easy prey for the extremists in politics.
I saw it differently to you ,i vividly remember someone who was the son of an immagrants and a few other imagrants agreeing and supporting nicks views on immagration, i also remember jack straw whining about the bnp using an image of a ww2 aircraft as a shame to the heroes who piloted them ,only for nick to expose straws lily livered grandad who refused to fight ,i also recall jack straw saying that the uk government(labour) nothing to do with the bnp program stating that they never had any knowledge of people being tortured by the cia ,but later when outed had to admit that his government gave info to the yanks that enabled the cia to kidnap someone.
When you compare the two which one is worse ,now you may think yourself superior to me as regard your coments about me being easy prey to extremist ,i'm afraid you are totally and utterly clueless ,my beliefs and views are my own and never have or will be because im'm easy prey to anybody ,you could say that my views could ,be left wing ,right wing ,or even central ,it's not confution at all i know exactly who and what i am and thats all that matters ,i don't change my views to seek friends or jump on the latest bandwagon ,with me what you see is what you get i suspect (maybe im wrong) that your party of choice is the labour party if so how could you possibly vote for a party that continually screws the country over.
Your life experiences are your own and not for me to interpret. As for myself I have lived in three countries during the course of my life. I Have never knowingly or willingly broken the law in two (I did get a speeding ticket (once) in the UK, does that count?). I did willingly and knowingly break the law in one, by being in possession and distributing a UK publication that was highly critical of the regime there. The secret police (laughingly not so secret, actually came up to my office desk and demanded I hand over the original. I did. But they were to thick to not understand I worked for Xerox, a reprographics company. Black and white copies were already in circulation) It was that well known ultra left publication, The Economist. Laugh? we all did)
I hope this helps you understand my viewpoint and why I object to yours.
I find it strange that you have such a passionet responce to my beliefs in law and order then willingly break the laws of a foreign country ,which in my opinion is worse than breaking a law in this country ,as you were a guest wherever it was ,how would you have reacted if you were tried and punished by the laws of that country ,would you have accepted it or like many run to the british embassy for help ,i'm genuainely interested in your responce ,
As you have lived in foreign climbs do you accept that if someone breaks the law over there they should be punished acording to that countries laws, for example drug smuggling in some countries equate to the death penalty or do you believe they should be tried in their own countries.
Likewise a few years back a yank sprayed graffditi somewhere abroad, was caught and sentanced to lashes what are your views on that ,i will lay mine out as if your stupid enough to get caught commiting a crime you deserve the punishment
Where we probably differ is knowing you views and mine are vastly different i would glady sit down and have a pint with you ,i would also if the need arose fight alongside you in an armed conflict as to me england is more important than anyone political beliefs ,if that isn't democratic i don't know what is
sorry it took so long to reply but i've been terrorised all day by my granddaughter so couldn't spend much time replying
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Post by jaggas on Jul 26, 2018 18:26:47 GMT
Inee I 100% agree with your views on ritually slaughtered meat but sadly and disgracefully it is sneaked into the food chain at many supermarkets, takeaways and restaurants without being labelled or the consumer being told so they cannot make an informed choice as to eat this meat. I am sure if you feel as strongly as I do about this disgusting meat that is foisted on the majority to appease a minority you will know how to avoid eating it.If you are a parent with children at school it is unavoidable as halal is the only option in most schools.Weirdly it is foisted on schools with no muslim pupils as it is too much hassle to cater for the majority who do not wish to eat it. The Education authorities are afraid to act on parents concerns for fear of being labelled racist by the white liberal types who think diversity means we all be sensitive to Islam and its vile customs and values and dont ban halal for fear of a backlash from Guardian readers. There are many "vile customs and values" about. What are your views on Kapparot, where some Orthodox Jews swing chickens above their heads, recite prayers to transfer the practitioner's sins to the birds and then slit their throats? Or the practice known as 'Metzitzah b'Peh', or 'oral suction circumcisions' which have caused some babies to contract herpes and even some to die as result? Nice bit of antisemitism there that was completely ignored by the leftie liberals on here who rush to defend Islam and make daft comparisons to defend the worst of Islam....Neither of the vile practices you use as examples are regularly carried out in the UK nor as nobby pointed out foisted on the rest of us in the name of tolerance and diversity.Halal slaughter is though and there is plenty of photographic and video evidence to show animals are being mistreated and not slaughtered in accordance with UK laws in halal abattoirs as the muslims torture and torment the animals prior to hacking at their throats while mumbling nonsense about some make believe being who is going to judge us all when we die. Circumcision is carried out on all muslim boys in the UK. I am sure Oldie will know more as he converted to Islam for very selfish reasons, not sure if he went far enough to sacrifice his foreskin for Allah during his conversion though. Females do get circumcised here in the UK and we are now well into cutting season where little somali girls who have the misfortune to be born into a community with muslim savages for parents force their little girls to have their genitals sliced off with anything from a can lid to a shard of glass with no anesthetic.They are then sewn up with just enough room to pee and menstruate and stay that way until their wedding night when the Somali husband can smash it all right in causing great pain,suffering and emotional scarring that can last a lifetime.The somali man doesn`t care as he has proved he is a real man and that his poor wife was a virgin.There have been zero convictions for FGM in the UK despite it being illegal for many years.The girls brainwashed with religion and backward customs since the day they were born are too frightened to name the people who carried out the brutal attack on their genitals ie: their parents grandparents and respected elders in the backward barbaric community. I am sure a few will now scour the internet looking for an excuse for this savagery and come up with a way of defending or comparing it to something else. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 26, 2018 18:33:45 GMT
ineeI don't expect you to change your views on the death penalty but I found this really interesting. "The Job" thisiscriminal.comReally interesting take on the impact on the people who actually have to carry out death sentences. I really recommend the whole podcast I've been listening from the first episode.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 26, 2018 18:39:45 GMT
Cliff Richard.
Would you have him back?
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 26, 2018 18:41:07 GMT
ineeI don't expect you to change your views on the death penalty but I found this really interesting. "The Job" thisiscriminal.comReally interesting take on the impact on the people who actually have to carry out death sentences. I really recommend the whole podcast I've been listening from the first episode. The narrators voice is like liquid sex by the way. I could listen to her reading a phone book. |
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Post by jaggas on Jul 26, 2018 19:08:39 GMT
Never agreed with the death penalty even though there are some wrong uns that should have been executed by the state.My argument has always been you could execute 1m wrong uns but if a few of those executed were in fact innocent then capital punishment cannot be justified.Even with the best dna and diligent policing innocent people would have been executed.Sion Jenkins and Barry George are prime examples.
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Post by inee on Jul 26, 2018 19:10:40 GMT
Hugo the ElderI have bookmarked that page and will have a listen when I've got the time ,i do realise that those who administer the punishment will suffer to differing levels and types of punishment. Personally i would never use the electric chair for the simple reason that i can't stand the smell of burning flesh or hair. lethal injection would be imo just like giving an unwanted anaesthetic. Hanging is the easiest and cheapest but requires a lot of time and study to ensure a quick death ,so i s'pose if i did the job that would be the one for me ,as it involves a bit of study to perfect ,i do not know if it would affect me long term the reason why is because i firmly believe that for certain crimes that is the only fitting punishment and i would be relieving the world of one more animal or subhuman so in that regards it would make each one worth it ,but as i said until you do the job you cannot gauge the way you will feel mentally (plus i rather suspect it would be a great stress reliever). Plus it's a great way to cut prison costs and save the public from becoming victims ,yes i also understand that it isn't a deterrent as these people will still act the way they do regardless of sentence if caught, but what it will do is to reduce the number of those who committed the crimes and ensure they will never be able to re offend, personally i feel that with certain crimes once you cross that line ,you lose all rights to be treated as a human
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 26, 2018 19:11:18 GMT
Never agreed with the death penalty even though there are some wrong uns that should have been executed by the state.My argument has always been you could execute 1m wrong uns but if a few of those executed were in fact innocent then capital punishment cannot be justified.Even with the best dna and diligent policing innocent people would have been executed.Sion Jenkins and Barry George are prime examples. Yeah, I agree. 1 wrong one would be too high a price to pay. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 26, 2018 19:13:40 GMT
Hugo the ElderI have bookmarked that page and will have a listen when I've got the time ,i do realise that those who administer the punishment will suffer to differing levels and types of punishment. Personally i would never use the electric chair for the simple reason that i can't stand the smell of burning flesh or hair. lethal injection would be imo just like giving an unwanted anaesthetic. Hanging is the easiest and cheapest but requires a lot of time and study to ensure a quick death ,so i s'pose if i did the job that would be the one for me ,as it involves a bit of study to perfect ,i do not know if it would affect me long term the reason why is because i firmly believe that for certain crimes that is the only fitting punishment and i would be relieving the world of one more animal or subhuman so in that regards it would make each one worth it ,but as i said until you do the job you cannot gauge the way you will feel mentally (plus i rather suspect it would be a great stress reliever). Plus it's a great way to cut prison costs and save the public from becoming victims ,yes i also understand that it isn't a deterrent as these people will still act the way they do regardless of sentence if caught, but what it will do is to reduce the number of those who committed the crimes and ensure they will never be able to re offend, personally i feel that with certain crimes once you cross that line ,you lose all rights to be treated as a human The death penalty hasn't had any effect on lowering crime in the US. Obviously reoffending rates improve. Edit. For those that can't be bothered to listen to a 25 minutes podcast, it's about how a prison guard feels about having to take a life himself and how he feels that the people who vote for the death penalty and jurers who sentence it should be made to be part of the process of killing that person. |
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Post by inee on Jul 26, 2018 19:22:27 GMT
Hugo the Elder I have bookmarked that page and will have a listen when I've got the time ,i do realise that those who administer the punishment will suffer to differing levels and types of punishment. Personally i would never use the electric chair for the simple reason that i can't stand the smell of burning flesh or hair. lethal injection would be imo just like giving an unwanted anaesthetic. Hanging is the easiest and cheapest but requires a lot of time and study to ensure a quick death ,so i s'pose if i did the job that would be the one for me ,as it involves a bit of study to perfect ,i do not know if it would affect me long term the reason why is because i firmly believe that for certain crimes that is the only fitting punishment and i would be relieving the world of one more animal or subhuman so in that regards it would make each one worth it ,but as i said until you do the job you cannot gauge the way you will feel mentally (plus i rather suspect it would be a great stress reliever). Plus it's a great way to cut prison costs and save the public from becoming victims ,yes i also understand that it isn't a deterrent as these people will still act the way they do regardless of sentence if caught, but what it will do is to reduce the number of those who committed the crimes and ensure they will never be able to re offend, personally i feel that with certain crimes once you cross that line ,you lose all rights to be treated as a human The death penalty hasn't had any effect on lowering crime in the US. Obviously reoffending rates improve. Edit. For those that can't be bothered to listen to a 25 minutes podcast, it's about how a prison guard feels about having to take a life himself and how he feels that the people who vote for the death penalty and jurers who sentence it should be made to be part of the process of killing that person. Although it will be a good listen and i will have a listen ,i suspect it's more a propaganda exercise ,for the simple fact the guard doesn't have any obligation to anyone to execute people ,no one can be forced to be an executioner ,they would simply work elsewhere |
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Post by jaggas on Jul 26, 2018 19:33:39 GMT
Hugo the Elder I have bookmarked that page and will have a listen when I've got the time ,i do realise that those who administer the punishment will suffer to differing levels and types of punishment. Personally i would never use the electric chair for the simple reason that i can't stand the smell of burning flesh or hair. lethal injection would be imo just like giving an unwanted anaesthetic. Hanging is the easiest and cheapest but requires a lot of time and study to ensure a quick death ,so i s'pose if i did the job that would be the one for me ,as it involves a bit of study to perfect ,i do not know if it would affect me long term the reason why is because i firmly believe that for certain crimes that is the only fitting punishment and i would be relieving the world of one more animal or subhuman so in that regards it would make each one worth it ,but as i said until you do the job you cannot gauge the way you will feel mentally (plus i rather suspect it would be a great stress reliever). Plus it's a great way to cut prison costs and save the public from becoming victims ,yes i also understand that it isn't a deterrent as these people will still act the way they do regardless of sentence if caught, but what it will do is to reduce the number of those who committed the crimes and ensure they will never be able to re offend, personally i feel that with certain crimes once you cross that line ,you lose all rights to be treated as a human The death penalty hasn't had any effect on lowering crime in the US. Obviously reoffending rates improve. Edit. For those that can't be bothered to listen to a 25 minutes podcast, it's about how a prison guard feels about having to take a life himself and how he feels that the people who vote for the death penalty and jurers who sentence it should be made to be part of the process of killing that person. Reading The Green Mile makes you think even though it is fiction. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 26, 2018 20:35:04 GMT
The death penalty hasn't had any effect on lowering crime in the US. Obviously reoffending rates improve. Edit. For those that can't be bothered to listen to a 25 minutes podcast, it's about how a prison guard feels about having to take a life himself and how he feels that the people who vote for the death penalty and jurers who sentence it should be made to be part of the process of killing that person. Although it will be a good listen and i will have a listen ,i suspect it's more a propaganda exercise ,for the simple fact the guard doesn't have any obligation to anyone to execute people ,no one can be forced to be an executioner ,they would simply work elsewhere Nah, it's not propaganda at all. The guy they interviewed wrote the state "How to..." manual for excecute people. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Jul 26, 2018 21:34:07 GMT
I'm not rushing to defend anything. I'm pointing out hypocrisy in saying this way of treating animals like sh** is worse than this other way of treating animals like sh**. I'm not arsed at all about halal meat. They can bless it all they like, it still tastes like chicken. If you are that bothered, just eat sausages. Hugo if you had to choose i a bolt through your head or a slit throat so you would bleed out slowly ,which would you want ,i will say both ways are horrible ways of dying but one is much quicker less painful than the other. Some of us me included have a deep seated hatred of religion ,more atrocities ,theft ,sex crimes have been carried out in the name of religion than any other way ,belief in gods started as a way to scare and oppress people and still do today to some extent dependant on if you were brainwashed as a kid or not (all religions not just one) , so forgive me if i find it rather distasteful and deeply offensive if meat i buy is blessed , i avoid any meat from new zealand ,i would rather go without than buy their meat as it's all halal ,and yes it may taste the same but kosher or halal leave a very bitter taste in taste in my mouth as i shouldn't have to ask in this country whether my meat is slaughtered according to our ways ,You say just eat sausaes now that is a minefield as many will use lamb casings which may or may not have been blessed. you seem to be under the impression that a bullet to the head kills you immediately? |
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Post by jaggas on Jul 26, 2018 22:05:30 GMT
Throat slit bleeding out slowly prayers being said in the name of an all seeing fairy that doesn`t exist is your prefered method I take it............
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jul 27, 2018 5:13:01 GMT
Throat slit bleeding out slowly prayers being said in the name of an all seeing fairy that doesn`t exist is your prefered method I take it............ See, that's what I don't get. I think we've probably both been playing a little bit in defending our corner, but we both agree that God is made up. How then, can blessing meat possibly make any difference? I can understand the issue around choice and I understand there is a possible point to conceed around method of execution. But where you both let yourself down is getting all hot and bothered about a religious thing that we all agree is meaningless. If it were all as meaningless as you and Inee keep saying why do you both keep ascribing meaning to it? It literally makes no difference. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 8:50:48 GMT
Throat slit bleeding out slowly prayers being said in the name of an all seeing fairy that doesn`t exist is your prefered method I take it............ See, that's what I don't get. I think we've probably both been playing a little bit in defending our corner, but we both agree that God is made up. How then, can blessing meat possibly make any difference? I can understand the issue around choice and I understand there is a possible point to conceed around method of execution. But where you both let yourself down is getting all hot and bothered about a religious thing that we all agree is meaningless. If it were all as meaningless as you and Inee keep saying why do you both keep ascribing meaning to it? It literally makes no difference. Checkmate |
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