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Post by inee on Jun 7, 2020 15:51:44 GMT
Got yer wish then, did it run round yer house in a manic state cheering and w**king at yet another piece of history consigned to the bin. Yet another thing that can be glossed over to pretend it didn't happen. Now get yer mates to destroy every almshouse, school or university building or any thing connected with slavery, storm the museum and destroy the records they have there, maybe just maybe people will finally be able to get rid of the false guilt they feel as it never happened then did it. If i had my way every person there would be made to pay for the statue under the proceeds of crime act, just so they would lose everything, It's great that your way won't occur then. I'm sure if Germany resurrected an Adolf Hitler statue you would go absolutely manick. There is a clear and cut line between those who deserve statues and those who certainly do not. Edward Colston falls very heavily into the "not" category. A man whose whole life revolved around causing misery to black people. University buildings very clearly don't idolise Edward Colston, statues do. It's absolutely bonkers to me that anyone would see taking down the statue of a slave trader as anything but a good thing. I'm sure these people would have been the same to support Enoch Powell or Oswald Mosley decades back, or dismiss the overall message of a movement due to violence just like people did with Martin Luther King in the 60s. See i just love the way people think it's ok to destroy a statue but still think its acceptable to use the buildings they payed for, of course the buildings idolise the slave trade, in case you forgot where did some of the money come from to build them, the problem is now idiots think they can remove stuff they don't agree with , it's a very slippery slope. Should we also burn every painting that has a controversial subject or person in it, burn every book you don't agree with, hmm i wonder where that happened before Dear oh dear there's the first one today how many more will there be you assume that im far right you could not be more wrong if you tried. You bought up the Germans which is an entirely different subject, i bet you feel the same way about those companies who used slave labour in the 40's, or do you use thier products because it convinient?? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 15:51:48 GMT
I don’t know if it has happened, I haven’t lived in Bristol for a bloody long time so I have no idea what they teach kids these days! I am just saying that if it were down to me (and that’s the key point) I would keep the statue but make it mandatory that kids should learn about Bristol’s role in the slave trade as a means of promoting tolerance, that way some good may come of it. I agree. So we would agree that slavery is shameful and we would teach our kids that it's shameful? Yes, that way, the statue can act as a talking point, art, if you like. Not all art is morally “right” of course, it serves to start a discussion whereby we can educate ourselves and make our own minds up on the negatives of Bristol’s profiteering from the slave trade. You can’t take the slave money out of the city ergo, imo, you have to co-exist alongside the symbols of that period otherwise you starting falling into the hole that Orwell wrote about. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 15:52:54 GMT
With respect that reads like a very convenient rationalisation- you want to tacitly keep the good bits but get rid of the ugly side. Slave money is slave money at the end of the day. I struggle to understand why people who want to tear down statues would live in the city at all to be honest. Seems massively hypocritical A statue is easily removable. It's easily unusable. It's literally just there for decorative purposes. Of course you have to recognise Bristol's deep and dark racist history because it's obviously true that Bristol was built on the back of the exploitation of thousands of people just due to the colour of their skin. No one is asking for Edward Colston's name to be taken out of the history pages, hell, I personally don't have an issue with Colston School and Colston Hall being named after him, even though it's very changeable, because he is a central part of the city's history. But he is a clear example of the ugly side of this country's history. Our school system and culture does a very good job at hiding the hundreds of years of atrocities the Empire committed, so it's no wonder that I'm sure many people know the name "Colston" but are complete oblivious to how Mr. Colston accrued his wealth. I don’t agree (as I have posted above) but that is a reasoned argument (which I didn’t expect!), so 👍 |
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 7, 2020 15:53:20 GMT
What else would a statue that idolises someone who built the vast majority of his wealth on the trade and exploitation of slaves mean? It could, should, be used as a tool to teach our kids the detail of a shameful period in our history. Then we can move on to the next shameful period to teach. That's all well and good, but you have to actually recognise the "shame." And not try and cover it. |
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Post by althepirate on Jun 7, 2020 15:53:53 GMT
It's a beautiful day, the sun is shining and great events have occurred today. A statue I have been pushing to take down for years has been ripped from its pedestal and stamped on by the people. A statue that idolised a person who built his entire fortune off of slave trading hundreds of thousands of black people back in his day. The statue shouldn't have been there to begin with. And that's why it's been torn down. Happy to say I witnessed it in person. So you decide it's ok to behave outside the boundaries of the law. So what becomes of right and wrong? Can anyone then work outside the law? Was it ok for George Floyd's killer to do what he did then because he maybe thought it was right too? I'm afraid you can't have it both ways. This is the real world you can't get all your own way. |
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 7, 2020 15:55:25 GMT
So my question is this...can we now all tear down things in the city of Bristol that we object to? Where would you start? Doesn’t really matter tbh, but if you let a mob do whatever they want, whenever they want to it just leads to anarchy. |
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Post by peterparker on Jun 7, 2020 15:58:42 GMT
What else would a statue that idolises someone who built the vast majority of his wealth on the trade and exploitation of slaves mean? It could, should, be used as a tool to teach our kids the detail of a shameful period in our history. Then we can move on to the next shameful period to teach. Starter for 10 British War Crimes in WW2 |
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Post by inee on Jun 7, 2020 15:59:19 GMT
It could, should, be used as a tool to teach our kids the detail of a shameful period in our history. Then we can move on to the next shameful period to teach. That's all well and good, but you have to actually recognise the "shame." And not try and cover it. Ah i see so removing a statue and the plaque isn't covering it and hiding history |
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Post by Gassy on Jun 7, 2020 15:59:24 GMT
Hi guys, dont normally get involved in this type of debate, but just saw th statue being felled on th news, i'll just leave this here: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue & street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped.” George Orwell - 1984
Edit: BTW i have every sympathy for their cause, but this is just wrong and un-lawful and they will lose support from normal folk not gain it, similar to Extinction Rebellion, we all knew they had a point and we wanted to support it, but they ruined other peoples lives, became violent and lost our trust.
To be fair Jock, have a look at that video again- how many people of colour do you see tearing down that statue? I see a load of middle class hypocrites who probably never even considered the slave trade when they decided to move to Bristol because of it’s universities and high rankings in the “best cities to live” guides. I think that's quite a harsh stereotype you've just made on people from a 10 second video tbh. Ultimately we don't know what each of these people have been through for them to protest. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:02:29 GMT
It could, should, be used as a tool to teach our kids the detail of a shameful period in our history. Then we can move on to the next shameful period to teach. That's all well and good, but you have to actually recognise the "shame." And not try and cover it. Precisely. Totally. But just read the objections to the use of that word on this thread. Kids would be more open to truth I think and that statue could be used as a catalyst. |
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Post by teanbiscuits on Jun 7, 2020 16:03:17 GMT
It's just been pulled down. I for one hope it gets put back up. No one learns from history by trying to hide it. Quite an awful point. Statues that idolise slave traders aren't particularly for historical benefit. You might idolise it but I don't. I see it as a reminder of a period of Bristols history that we all need to learn the mistakes of. |
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Post by gregsy on Jun 7, 2020 16:03:45 GMT
I'm trying hard to structure some kind of point on this thread that can avoid getting an ear bashing from both sides of the debate....
Can't think of one....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:04:01 GMT
Doesn’t really matter tbh, but if you let a mob do whatever they want, whenever they want to it just leads to anarchy. Oh my god |
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 7, 2020 16:04:46 GMT
It's great that your way won't occur then. I'm sure if Germany resurrected an Adolf Hitler statue you would go absolutely manick. There is a clear and cut line between those who deserve statues and those who certainly do not. Edward Colston falls very heavily into the "not" category. A man whose whole life revolved around causing misery to black people. University buildings very clearly don't idolise Edward Colston, statues do. It's absolutely bonkers to me that anyone would see taking down the statue of a slave trader as anything but a good thing. I'm sure these people would have been the same to support Enoch Powell or Oswald Mosley decades back, or dismiss the overall message of a movement due to violence just like people did with Martin Luther King in the 60s. See i just love the way people think it's ok to destroy a statue but still think its acceptable to use the buildings they payed for, of course the buildings idolise the slave trade, in case you forgot where did some of the money come from to build them, the problem is now idiots think they can remove stuff they don't agree with , it's a very slippery slope. Should we also burn every painting that has a controversial subject or person in it, burn every book you don't agree with, hmm i wonder where that happened before Dear oh dear there's the first one today how many more will there be you assume that im far right you could not be more wrong if you tried. You bought up the Germans which is an entirely different subject, i bet you feel the same way about those companies who used slave labour in the 40's, or do you use thier products because it convinient?? Because there's a very clear and cut difference. Take your last statement for example, the people who ran these companies back then and who used their companies to show appreciation for things like Naziism are long past. Had I been alive at the time I wouldn't have used these products, but who I am to judge the son who inherits his father's business who holds completely different views. A lot of things may be miseducation, if there are people who openly supported Nazis that are still alive and run their respective businesses then please educate me! There is obviously a clear and cut difference, as a banker the reason I chose not to join Barclays was due to their association with the apartheid regime. To a certain extent you have to settle that a lot of Bristol's history is built on the back of suffering and pain. I mean paintings are usually in places like museums that educate people on this subject, people go there to specifically learn about these individuals. And no burning every book I don't agree with is pointless as there will always be another book. There is ONE Edward Colston statue and that's one too many. So thankfully it got taken down. It's quite unbelievable to me that people are so angry about the destruction of a pro-racist memorial. |
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Post by inee on Jun 7, 2020 16:05:44 GMT
It could, should, be used as a tool to teach our kids the detail of a shameful period in our history. Then we can move on to the next shameful period to teach. Starter for 10 British War Crimes in WW2 I think it's been touched on in schools but as the victors write the history books it would have been taught as a wonderful thing, same way as the yanks nuking japan goes , or the rape of Nanjing by the japs. We could go on forever ,the thing is human are a bunch of lady gardens always have been always will be |
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 7, 2020 16:06:46 GMT
It's a beautiful day, the sun is shining and great events have occurred today. A statue I have been pushing to take down for years has been ripped from its pedestal and stamped on by the people. A statue that idolised a person who built his entire fortune off of slave trading hundreds of thousands of black people back in his day. The statue shouldn't have been there to begin with. And that's why it's been torn down. Happy to say I witnessed it in person. So you decide it's ok to behave outside the boundaries of the law. So what becomes of right and wrong? Can anyone then work outside the law? Was it ok for George Floyd's killer to do what he did then because he maybe thought it was right too? I'm afraid you can't have it both ways. This is the real world you can't get all your own way. Within reason, yes. The killing of a man is very different to the destruction of a statue so I'm not even going to give a response to that. Is the law always morally pure? Was homosexuality not illegal as little as 55 years ago? Would you have told a gay man then "so it's okay to behave outside the boundaries of the law but if I assassinate Martin Luther King that's okay?" |
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 7, 2020 16:07:14 GMT
To be fair Jock, have a look at that video again- how many people of colour do you see tearing down that statue? I see a load of middle class hypocrites who probably never even considered the slave trade when they decided to move to Bristol because of it’s universities and high rankings in the “best cities to live” guides. I think that's quite a harsh stereotype you've just made on people from a 10 second video tbh. Ultimately we don't know what each of these people have been through for them to protest. Protest is one thing.....carrying out acts of unlawful vandalism is another. This time it was a statue that many don’t want to see there. But next time it will be....what? Are we condoning this sort of thing now? |
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 7, 2020 16:07:57 GMT
Doesn’t really matter tbh, but if you let a mob do whatever they want, whenever they want to it just leads to anarchy. Oh my god Why for....? |
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 7, 2020 16:08:44 GMT
Quite an awful point. Statues that idolise slave traders aren't particularly for historical benefit. You might idolise it but I don't. I see it as a reminder of a period of Bristols history that we all need to learn the mistakes of. You would have a point if people actually learned from the mistakes!! Edward Colston is just thought of as a cultural figure to Bristol, many, many people have only learnt today of his dark history. |
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Post by gasandelectricity on Jun 7, 2020 16:10:49 GMT
So my question is this...can we now all tear down things in the city of Bristol that we object to? Ashton Gate? |
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