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Post by Gassy on Jun 7, 2020 16:12:19 GMT
I think that's quite a harsh stereotype you've just made on people from a 10 second video tbh. Ultimately we don't know what each of these people have been through for them to protest. Protest is one thing.....carrying out acts of unlawful vandalism is another. This time it was a statue that many don’t want to see there. But next time it will be....what? Are we condoning this sort of thing now? I'm saying that out of the people in the video that you can see, we shouldn't be stereotyping the type of person they are in terms of middle class hypocrites who aren't Bristolians. As we've now seen, stuartcampbell was there to see it in person. Is he now a a middle class hypocrite just because he witnessed it?
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 7, 2020 16:12:59 GMT
That's all well and good, but you have to actually recognise the "shame." And not try and cover it. Ah i see so removing a statue and the plaque isn't covering it and hiding history Portraying him in a saint-like fashion isn't either.
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 7, 2020 16:13:52 GMT
You might idolise it but I don't. I see it as a reminder of a period of Bristols history that we all need to learn the mistakes of. You would have a point if people actually learned from the mistakes!! Edward Colston is just thought of as a cultural figure to Bristol, many, many people have only learnt today of his dark history. God I hate this self righteous stuff ,ever bought or used any products from Bayer? Tearing down symbols of the past does not educate anyone,engaging with the subject matter does. What's next Wellington, Churchill.....
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Post by gasandelectricity on Jun 7, 2020 16:14:17 GMT
I'm a little bit behind on this fast moving thread but everything seems fairly well behaved so far - just a reminder before anything that could happen does happen, that we would appreciate if we keep everything respectful and not too personal!
Cheers
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Post by teanbiscuits on Jun 7, 2020 16:15:12 GMT
You might idolise it but I don't. I see it as a reminder of a period of Bristols history that we all need to learn the mistakes of. You would have a point if people actually learned from the mistakes!! Edward Colston is just thought of as a cultural figure to Bristol, many, many people have only learnt today of his dark history. I can't say I agree with that at all. It has been and still is taught in primary schools in Bristol for a start.
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Post by inee on Jun 7, 2020 16:15:48 GMT
See i just love the way people think it's ok to destroy a statue but still think its acceptable to use the buildings they payed for, of course the buildings idolise the slave trade, in case you forgot where did some of the money come from to build them, the problem is now idiots think they can remove stuff they don't agree with , it's a very slippery slope. Should we also burn every painting that has a controversial subject or person in it, burn every book you don't agree with, hmm i wonder where that happened before Dear oh dear there's the first one today how many more will there be you assume that im far right you could not be more wrong if you tried. You bought up the Germans which is an entirely different subject, i bet you feel the same way about those companies who used slave labour in the 40's, or do you use thier products because it convinient?? Because there's a very clear and cut difference. Take your last statement for example, the people who ran these companies back then and who used their companies to show appreciation for things like Naziism are long past. Had I been alive at the time I wouldn't have used these products, but who I am to judge the son who inherits his father's business who holds completely different views. A lot of things may be miseducation, if there are people who openly supported Nazis that are still alive and run their respective businesses then please educate me! There is obviously a clear and cut difference, as a banker the reason I chose not to join Barclays was due to their association with the apartheid regime. To a certain extent you have to settle that a lot of Bristol's history is built on the back of suffering and pain. I mean paintings are usually in places like museums that educate people on this subject, people go there to specifically learn about these individuals. And no burning every book I don't agree with is pointless as there will always be another book. There is ONE Edward Colston statue and that's one too many. So thankfully it got taken down. It's quite unbelievable to me that people are so angry about the destruction of a pro-racist memorial. See to me that's selective use of history, as in I'm going to look back and condemn the nsdap for their treatment of others in the first part of the 40's. But will ignore that when I want to buy a new car or posh clothes etc., the simple fact is if those companies hadn't used slave labour they would not be here today. How about the nails in corn street should they be removed as slave money would have been banged down on them a few times So whats your opinion on the enslavement of white people in britain. Intersting your bit about your reasons for not joining barclays, so you din't support aparthied, but you decided to align yourself like many others with a terrorist.
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Post by althepirate on Jun 7, 2020 16:17:55 GMT
So you decide it's ok to behave outside the boundaries of the law. So what becomes of right and wrong? Can anyone then work outside the law? Was it ok for George Floyd's killer to do what he did then because he maybe thought it was right too? I'm afraid you can't have it both ways. This is the real world you can't get all your own way. Within reason, yes. The killing of a man is very different to the destruction of a statue so I'm not even going to give a response to that. Is the law always morally pure? Was homosexuality not illegal as little as 55 years ago? Would you have told a gay man then "so it's okay to behave outside the boundaries of the law but if I assassinate Martin Luther King that's okay?" Within whose reason, always yours? It doesn't work that way. Boundaries are the same for everyone so if you can do what you want then so can anyone else and because each persons reasoning is different you may not agree, but you don't care what anyone else thinks so neither will anyone else care what you think. So if a bunch of hells angels beat you up for pulling down the statue I'm assuming you will think that's ok because they thought it was in reason?
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Post by inee on Jun 7, 2020 16:18:20 GMT
I'm a little bit behind on this fast moving thread but everything seems fairly well behaved so far - just a reminder before anything that could happen does happen, that we would appreciate if we keep everything respectful and not too personal! Cheers Oi sod off this is a mod free zone
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 7, 2020 16:20:18 GMT
Protest is one thing.....carrying out acts of unlawful vandalism is another. This time it was a statue that many don’t want to see there. But next time it will be....what? Are we condoning this sort of thing now? I'm saying that out of the people in the video that you can see, we shouldn't be stereotyping the type of person they are in terms of middle class hypocrites who aren't Bristolians. As we've now seen, stuartcampbell was there to see it in person. Is he now a a middle class hypocrite just because he witnessed it? Didn’t disagree with you on that point, nor did I make any comment on their class or status. Nor on the fact that the statue should/should not be there. But my point is, no matter who they are, however valid they may feel their argument is, this was an act of vandalism and we should not discriminate on the act because it has some validity. Do we just let people wander around willy billy destroying things they object to.We then give up on the rule of law and order if we do. Simple, albeit narrow, point.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:20:31 GMT
To be fair Jock, have a look at that video again- how many people of colour do you see tearing down that statue? I see a load of middle class hypocrites who probably never even considered the slave trade when they decided to move to Bristol because of it’s universities and high rankings in the “best cities to live” guides. I think that's quite a harsh stereotype you've just made on people from a 10 second video tbh. Ultimately we don't know what each of these people have been through for them to protest. Yeah maybe, I openly admit that I’m thinking of the stereotype of the Bristol I see today when I spend time there. Bristol, it seems to me, has turned into an extension of Shoreditch and it leaves me a bit uneasy as I don’t recognise much Bristolian culture from my youth, it seems to have appropriated the gentrification of London and thus is in danger of losing it’s own sense of identity, imo. That’s a story for another thread though!
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Post by Gassy on Jun 7, 2020 16:21:53 GMT
I think that's quite a harsh stereotype you've just made on people from a 10 second video tbh. Ultimately we don't know what each of these people have been through for them to protest. Yeah maybe, I openly admit that I’m thinking of the stereotype of the Bristol I see today when I spend time there. Bristol, it seems to me, has turned into an extension of Shoreditch and it leaves me a bit uneasy as I don’t recognise much Bristolian culture from my youth, it seems to have appropriated the gentrification of London and thus is in danger of losing it’s own sense of identity, imo. That’s a story for another thread though! I think thats a fair reflection. Bristol is pretty hipster these days, in the centre anyway
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:22:39 GMT
So my question is this...can we now all tear down things in the city of Bristol that we object to? Go for it.
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Post by Gassy on Jun 7, 2020 16:25:40 GMT
I'm saying that out of the people in the video that you can see, we shouldn't be stereotyping the type of person they are in terms of middle class hypocrites who aren't Bristolians. As we've now seen, stuartcampbell was there to see it in person. Is he now a a middle class hypocrite just because he witnessed it? Didn’t disagree with you on that point, nor did I make any comment on their class or status. Nor on the fact that the statue should/should not be there. But my point is, no matter who they are, however valid they may feel their argument is, this was an act of vandalism and we should not discriminate on the act because it has some validity. Do we just let people wander around willy billy destroying things they object to.We then give up on the rule of law and order if we do. Simple, albeit narrow, point. Ah ok, apologies on misunderstanding your point. It's a tough one really, in protests people tend to typically get away with what they want, when they become violent. This has been the case of pretty much all violent protests in UK history. Remember London about 10-15 years ago? Of course, violence needs to be quashed - and it will.
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 7, 2020 16:25:49 GMT
You would have a point if people actually learned from the mistakes!! Edward Colston is just thought of as a cultural figure to Bristol, many, many people have only learnt today of his dark history. God I hate this self righteous stuff ,ever bought or used any products from Bayer? Tearing down symbols of the past does not educate anyone,engaging with the subject matter does. What's next Wellington, Churchill..... I haven't actually. I'm actually a defender of Churchill against many people of the same political thinking as me because Churchill was a very flawed character. I think people should be more educated on stuff other than his role in the defence of our country. He shouldn't just be recognised as a "brave, brave leader" as he is currently, but then again he shouldn't be thought of as someone who was inherently evil and caused the deaths of millions of Indians purely due to his racial beliefs, he was somewhere in the middle. And I think it's hypocritical to point out the flaws of someone like Churchill and not someone like Gandhi for instance. What you're describing is not reality, let's say there is a father; Tom and a son; Joshua. Tom and Joshua are walking through and see the statue, Joshua asks about it and Tom gives a detailed history of Edward Colston, cons and pros, of things that he contributed to the city but also things that he did that were negative, like his exploitation of slaves. Joshua then forms a balanced view in his own head and evaluates using his own moral compass with his own values, Edward Colston as a character. This is not reality. In reality Joshua asks who's that man and Edward Colston is portrayed with all pros and no cons. Then Joshua grows up and teaches his son about it, with it being easily avoidable to miss all of the cons of Edward Colston. I would be shocked to learn that the majority of Bristol's inhabitants knew before today that Edward Colston himself accrued the majority of his wealth off of the back of exploiting and trading slaves.
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 7, 2020 16:27:18 GMT
You would have a point if people actually learned from the mistakes!! Edward Colston is just thought of as a cultural figure to Bristol, many, many people have only learnt today of his dark history. I can't say I agree with that at all. It has been and still is taught in primary schools in Bristol for a start.
I know many many people who were never taught it even to this day. But Edward Colston's cons certainly wasn't taught 30 years ago!
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Post by gasandelectricity on Jun 7, 2020 16:28:41 GMT
Allowing people to desecrate property (public or private) whether or not we like the context behind or not - if the masses consider it abhorrent - is an extremely dangerous route to go down. Where do you draw the line? I jokingly posted we could tear down Ashton Gate because as gasheads we don't particularly agree with it. Of course, that wouldn't be an appropriate thing to do. I hope those responsible are bought to justice. Even if you agree with it being taken down I would hope you would agree that this is not the right way to go about it. As for the social distancing on show when we're in the middle of a global pandemic, that needs not to be mentioned.
I think the best thing that could have happened is the statue was peacefully and appropriately pulled down, and for it to be located in a permanent exhibit in the city museum where the context and history of himself and the slave trade could be discussed and used a prop for educating our children about the origins of our city.
I hope it can be recovered so that something along those lines can be done.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:29:55 GMT
I hear on the grapevine that the police are looking into the vandalism of the statue and trying to identify the offenders in order to prosecute. That won’t be good for PR!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:31:43 GMT
Yeah maybe, I openly admit that I’m thinking of the stereotype of the Bristol I see today when I spend time there. Bristol, it seems to me, has turned into an extension of Shoreditch and it leaves me a bit uneasy as I don’t recognise much Bristolian culture from my youth, it seems to have appropriated the gentrification of London and thus is in danger of losing it’s own sense of identity, imo. That’s a story for another thread though! I think thats a fair reflection. Bristol is pretty hipster these days, in the centre anyway I shall simply say my thoughts entirely!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:32:38 GMT
Allowing people to desecrate property (public or private) whether or not we like the context behind or not - if the masses consider it abhorrent - is an extremely dangerous route to go down. Where do you draw the line? I jokingly posted we could tear down Ashton Gate because as gasheads we don't particularly agree with it. Of course, that wouldn't be an appropriate thing to do. I hope those responsible are bought to justice. Even if you agree with it being taken down I would hope you would agree that this is not the right way to go about it. As for the social distancing on show when we're in the middle of a global pandemic, that needs not to be mentioned. I think the best thing that could have happened is the statue was peacefully and appropriately pulled down, and for it to be located in a permanent exhibit in the city museum where the context and history of himself and the slave trade could be discussed and used a prop for educating our children about the origins of our city. I hope it can be recovered so that something along those lines can be done. It’s in the docks mate!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:33:30 GMT
God I hate this self righteous stuff ,ever bought or used any products from Bayer? Tearing down symbols of the past does not educate anyone,engaging with the subject matter does. What's next Wellington, Churchill..... I haven't actually. I'm actually a defender of Churchill against many people of the same political thinking as me because Churchill was a very flawed character. I think people should be more educated on stuff other than his role in the defence of our country. He shouldn't just be recognised as a "brave, brave leader" as he is currently, but then again he shouldn't be thought of as someone who was inherently evil and caused the deaths of millions of Indians purely due to his racial beliefs, he was somewhere in the middle. And I think it's hypocritical to point out the flaws of someone like Churchill and not someone like Gandhi for instance. What you're describing is not reality, let's say there is a father; Tom and a son; Joshua. Tom and Joshua are walking through and see the statue, Joshua asks about it and Tom gives a detailed history of Edward Colston, cons and pros, of things that he contributed to the city but also things that he did that were negative, like his exploitation of slaves. Joshua then forms a balanced view in his own head and evaluates using his own moral compass with his own values, Edward Colston as a character. This is not reality. In reality Joshua asks who's that man and Edward Colston is portrayed with all pros and no cons. Then Joshua grows up and teaches his son about it, with it being easily avoidable to miss all of the cons of Edward Colston. I would be shocked to learn that the majority of Bristol's inhabitants knew before today that Edward Colston himself accrued the majority of his wealth off of the back of exploiting and trading slaves. Ask the Welsh about Churchill....
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