Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:34:53 GMT
Didn’t disagree with you on that point, nor did I make any comment on their class or status. Nor on the fact that the statue should/should not be there. But my point is, no matter who they are, however valid they may feel their argument is, this was an act of vandalism and we should not discriminate on the act because it has some validity. Do we just let people wander around willy billy destroying things they object to.We then give up on the rule of law and order if we do. Simple, albeit narrow, point. Ah ok, apologies on misunderstanding your point. It's a tough one really, in protests people tend to typically get away with what they want, when they become violent. This has been the case of pretty much all violent protests in UK history. Remember London about 10-15 years ago? Of course, violence needs to be quashed - and it will. Genuine question: what are the notable successes in recent history of violent protest? |
|
|
|
Post by gasandelectricity on Jun 7, 2020 16:37:10 GMT
Allowing people to desecrate property (public or private) whether or not we like the context behind or not - if the masses consider it abhorrent - is an extremely dangerous route to go down. Where do you draw the line? I jokingly posted we could tear down Ashton Gate because as gasheads we don't particularly agree with it. Of course, that wouldn't be an appropriate thing to do. I hope those responsible are bought to justice. Even if you agree with it being taken down I would hope you would agree that this is not the right way to go about it. As for the social distancing on show when we're in the middle of a global pandemic, that needs not to be mentioned. I think the best thing that could have happened is the statue was peacefully and appropriately pulled down, and for it to be located in a permanent exhibit in the city museum where the context and history of himself and the slave trade could be discussed and used a prop for educating our children about the origins of our city. I hope it can be recovered so that something along those lines can be done. It’s in the docks mate!  Ha, of course, but will it be in a state fit to do something like that? |
|
|
|
Post by matealotblue on Jun 7, 2020 16:38:43 GMT
Didn’t disagree with you on that point, nor did I make any comment on their class or status. Nor on the fact that the statue should/should not be there. But my point is, no matter who they are, however valid they may feel their argument is, this was an act of vandalism and we should not discriminate on the act because it has some validity. Do we just let people wander around willy billy destroying things they object to.We then give up on the rule of law and order if we do. Simple, albeit narrow, point. Ah ok, apologies on misunderstanding your point. It's a tough one really, in protests people tend to typically get away with what they want, when they become violent. This has been the case of pretty much all violent protests in UK history. Remember London about 10-15 years ago? Of course, violence needs to be quashed - and it will. No problem. Onwards and upwards .....but not sure who willy billy is though...😀 |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:40:23 GMT
God help us if a Government can determine a protest a mob and determine it anarchy. Giving them, Trump like, the excuse to use the armed forces on their populations. Peterloo anyone? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:42:08 GMT
I'm a little bit behind on this fast moving thread but everything seems fairly well behaved so far - just a reminder before anything that could happen does happen, that we would appreciate if we keep everything respectful and not too personal! Cheers You provocative swine |
|
|
|
Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 7, 2020 16:42:47 GMT
Because there's a very clear and cut difference. Take your last statement for example, the people who ran these companies back then and who used their companies to show appreciation for things like Naziism are long past. Had I been alive at the time I wouldn't have used these products, but who I am to judge the son who inherits his father's business who holds completely different views. A lot of things may be miseducation, if there are people who openly supported Nazis that are still alive and run their respective businesses then please educate me! There is obviously a clear and cut difference, as a banker the reason I chose not to join Barclays was due to their association with the apartheid regime. To a certain extent you have to settle that a lot of Bristol's history is built on the back of suffering and pain. I mean paintings are usually in places like museums that educate people on this subject, people go there to specifically learn about these individuals. And no burning every book I don't agree with is pointless as there will always be another book. There is ONE Edward Colston statue and that's one too many. So thankfully it got taken down. It's quite unbelievable to me that people are so angry about the destruction of a pro-racist memorial. See to me that's selective use of history, as in I'm going to look back and condemn the nsdap for their treatment of others in the first part of the 40's. But will ignore that when I want to buy a new car or posh clothes etc., the simple fact is if those companies hadn't used slave labour they would not be here today. How about the nails in corn street should they be removed as slave money would have been banged down on them a few times So whats your opinion on the enslavement of white people in britain. Intersting your bit about your reasons for not joining barclays, so you din't support aparthied, but you decided to align yourself like many others with a terrorist. But there's a clear difference. It's like the differentiation between the art and the artist. I'm uneducated on the enslavement of white people in this country, please educate me. Just because I didn't agree with Apartheid doesn't mean I was fully and 100% behind the methods of the Mandelas, although I was fully behind the goal. But frankly at the time I always thought of Winnie as being far more terroristy than Nelson ever was. |
|
|
|
Post by trevorgas on Jun 7, 2020 16:44:06 GMT
God I hate this self righteous stuff ,ever bought or used any products from Bayer? Tearing down symbols of the past does not educate anyone,engaging with the subject matter does. What's next Wellington, Churchill..... I haven't actually. I'm actually a defender of Churchill against many people of the same political thinking as me because Churchill was a very flawed character. I think people should be more educated on stuff other than his role in the defence of our country. He shouldn't just be recognised as a "brave, brave leader" as he is currently, but then again he shouldn't be thought of as someone who was inherently evil and caused the deaths of millions of Indians purely due to his racial beliefs, he was somewhere in the middle. And I think it's hypocritical to point out the flaws of someone like Churchill and not someone like Gandhi for instance. What you're describing is not reality, let's say there is a father; Tom and a son; Joshua. Tom and Joshua are walking through and see the statue, Joshua asks about it and Tom gives a detailed history of Edward Colston, cons and pros, of things that he contributed to the city but also things that he did that were negative, like his exploitation of slaves. Joshua then forms a balanced view in his own head and evaluates using his own moral compass with his own values, Edward Colston as a character. This is not reality. In reality Joshua asks who's that man and Edward Colston is portrayed with all pros and no cons. Then Joshua grows up and teaches his son about it, with it being easily avoidable to miss all of the cons of Edward Colston. I would be shocked to learn that the majority of Bristol's inhabitants knew before today that Edward Colston himself accrued the majority of his wealth off of the back of exploiting and trading slaves. Dont agree whatever happened to at some stage doing some research and forming you own opinion. As for who knew about Colston everyone of my generation does as far as I'm aware. I'm not a great admire of Churchill can i please tear his statues down based on the logic of today? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:44:30 GMT
It’s in the docks mate! Ha, of course, but will it be in a state fit to do something like that? Depends how far out to sea he gets before they pick him up... FWIW I agree. I don’t think mob rule should win out here and if possible, as you say, make it a museum piece. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:44:40 GMT
Ah ok, apologies on misunderstanding your point. It's a tough one really, in protests people tend to typically get away with what they want, when they become violent. This has been the case of pretty much all violent protests in UK history. Remember London about 10-15 years ago? Of course, violence needs to be quashed - and it will. Genuine question: what are the notable successes in recent history of violent protest? The over throw of the western supported fascist, the Shah of Iran. Hosni Mubarak in Egypt? The establishment of a new Republic in Eire? |
|
|
|
Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 7, 2020 16:46:48 GMT
Within reason, yes. The killing of a man is very different to the destruction of a statue so I'm not even going to give a response to that. Is the law always morally pure? Was homosexuality not illegal as little as 55 years ago? Would you have told a gay man then "so it's okay to behave outside the boundaries of the law but if I assassinate Martin Luther King that's okay?" Within whose reason, always yours? It doesn't work that way. Boundaries are the same for everyone so if you can do what you want then so can anyone else and because each persons reasoning is different you may not agree, but you don't care what anyone else thinks so neither will anyone else care what you think. So if a bunch of hells angels beat you up for pulling down the statue I'm assuming you will think that's ok because they thought it was in reason? Within common reason. Murder is not acceptable but homosexuality is. Aren't the Hell's Angels banned in several countries? There's a clear and obvious line, I don't believe my views are strong enough to justify violence against me, but would I lose a wink of sleep if someone was walking down the street and right hooked Derek Chauvin across the jaw? No. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:49:48 GMT
The people have spoken for now anyway.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 16:52:44 GMT
The people have spoken for now anyway. Can I have a cider now?? |
|
|
|
Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 7, 2020 16:54:27 GMT
Ah ok, apologies on misunderstanding your point. It's a tough one really, in protests people tend to typically get away with what they want, when they become violent. This has been the case of pretty much all violent protests in UK history. Remember London about 10-15 years ago? Of course, violence needs to be quashed - and it will. Genuine question: what are the notable successes in recent history of violent protest? Everything Martin Luther King accomplished. Everything Malcolm X accomplished. Everything Nelson Mandela accomplished. Of course Martin Luther King himself was a pacifist, but trust me people had the same critiques of him as much as they do towards the BlackLivesMatter movement, which is stupid, as BlackLivesMatter isn't responsible for any violence. What should be more spoken about at the moment though is clear and cut police brutality in America, everyday you see war crimes committed, people being shot with rubber bullets (rubber bullets are huge and have only a thin layer of rubber around the metal, they're meant to be shot at the floor to ricochet and spread crowds, not SHOT AT PEOPLE'S FACES). But this movement has 100% caused success in lots of aspects, the reopening of the Breonna Taylor case, George Floyd's murderer being pushed from third degree to second degree murder and the arrest of his fellow accomplice officers. I just find it interesting people have been more focussed on the rioting and not the police brutality at the moment, I certainly care more about a peaceful protestor getting shot by a rubber bullet in the face causing him to lose his eye than I do a Nike store getting looted. I hope everyone on this feed feels the same way. |
|
|
|
Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 7, 2020 16:55:42 GMT
I haven't actually. I'm actually a defender of Churchill against many people of the same political thinking as me because Churchill was a very flawed character. I think people should be more educated on stuff other than his role in the defence of our country. He shouldn't just be recognised as a "brave, brave leader" as he is currently, but then again he shouldn't be thought of as someone who was inherently evil and caused the deaths of millions of Indians purely due to his racial beliefs, he was somewhere in the middle. And I think it's hypocritical to point out the flaws of someone like Churchill and not someone like Gandhi for instance. What you're describing is not reality, let's say there is a father; Tom and a son; Joshua. Tom and Joshua are walking through and see the statue, Joshua asks about it and Tom gives a detailed history of Edward Colston, cons and pros, of things that he contributed to the city but also things that he did that were negative, like his exploitation of slaves. Joshua then forms a balanced view in his own head and evaluates using his own moral compass with his own values, Edward Colston as a character. This is not reality. In reality Joshua asks who's that man and Edward Colston is portrayed with all pros and no cons. Then Joshua grows up and teaches his son about it, with it being easily avoidable to miss all of the cons of Edward Colston. I would be shocked to learn that the majority of Bristol's inhabitants knew before today that Edward Colston himself accrued the majority of his wealth off of the back of exploiting and trading slaves. Dont agree whatever happened to at some stage doing some research and forming you own opinion. As for who knew about Colston everyone of my generation does as far as I'm aware. I'm not a great admire of Churchill can i please tear his statues down based on the logic of today? Churchill did a lot more good and a lot less bad than Colston. It's different. |
|
pirate
Forum Legend
Posts: 19,461 
|
Post by pirate on Jun 7, 2020 16:57:42 GMT
God help us if a Government can determine a protest a mob and determine it anarchy. Giving them, Trump like, the excuse to use the armed forces on their populations. Peterloo anyone?    |
|
|
|
Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 7, 2020 16:58:49 GMT
Allowing people to desecrate property (public or private) whether or not we like the context behind or not - if the masses consider it abhorrent - is an extremely dangerous route to go down. Where do you draw the line? I jokingly posted we could tear down Ashton Gate because as gasheads we don't particularly agree with it. Of course, that wouldn't be an appropriate thing to do. I hope those responsible are bought to justice. Even if you agree with it being taken down I would hope you would agree that this is not the right way to go about it. As for the social distancing on show when we're in the middle of a global pandemic, that needs not to be mentioned. I think the best thing that could have happened is the statue was peacefully and appropriately pulled down, and for it to be located in a permanent exhibit in the city museum where the context and history of himself and the slave trade could be discussed and used a prop for educating our children about the origins of our city. I hope it can be recovered so that something along those lines can be done. I think that's a fair point. But it is worth noting people have been attempting to peacefully take the statue down for years. And I can definitely understand people aware of Colston's history seeing the BlackLivesMatter protests and being infuriated at the fact a statue is in public idolising him. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 17:01:39 GMT
|
|
pirate
Forum Legend
Posts: 19,461
|
Post by pirate on Jun 7, 2020 17:02:12 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 17:03:05 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 7, 2020 17:04:30 GMT
Just to make a point. I would much rather a statue of Paul Stephenson be resurrected than a statue of Edward Colston.
|
|
