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Post by Rod1883 on Jun 9, 2020 16:14:33 GMT
Oldie
Sadly many are advocating tearing down images from our history - as I said above - where does that stop?
The Tolpuddle martyrs, the Suffragettes etc were of their time targeting issues of their time.
What is the point of attacking images of and from different times, of people that did things that we don't agree with now, but those things have already been put right? In my view many of the BLM protests and protestors with their acts of vandalism and violence risk fuelling hatred rather than the stated aim of calmly trying to do the opposite.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 16:44:54 GMT
Oldie Sadly many are advocating tearing down images from our history - as I said above - where does that stop? The Tolpuddle martyrs, the Suffragettes etc were of their time targeting issues of their time. What is the point of attacking images of and from different times, of people that did things that we don't agree with now, but those things have already been put right? In my view many of the BLM protests and protestors with their acts of vandalism and violence risk fuelling hatred rather than the stated aim of calmly trying to do the opposite. Re Suffragettes "During the radical suffragette campaign, some women carried out attacks on works of art in an attempt to publicise their cause. In 1914, Mary Richardson infamously slashed the Velasquez painting known as the Rokeby Venus in the National Gallery. The Mount Stewart exhibition includes a sheet of identity photographs of suffragettes issued to the National Portrait Gallery by the Metropolitan Police following the slashing incident." Were they wrong?
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Post by Rod1883 on Jun 9, 2020 16:46:37 GMT
...to target historical artworks, then imho - yes they were.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 16:50:45 GMT
...to target historical artworks, then imho - yes they were. Ok. Then I presume you would not fight for a just cause if artefacts, valuable in the eyes of the opponents' of your cause, would be damaged. Ok.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 16:56:53 GMT
In more upto date news, over in Charlotte North Carolina
"City council meeting while we protested. They voted 9-2 to stop funding of tear gas for the police"
Bingo
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 17:14:16 GMT
Oldie Sadly many are advocating tearing down images from our history - as I said above - where does that stop? The Tolpuddle martyrs, the Suffragettes etc were of their time targeting issues of their time. What is the point of attacking images of and from different times, of people that did things that we don't agree with now, but those things have already been put right? In my view many of the BLM protests and protestors with their acts of vandalism and violence risk fuelling hatred rather than the stated aim of calmly trying to do the opposite. Re Suffragettes "During the radical suffragette campaign, some women carried out attacks on works of art in an attempt to publicise their cause. In 1914, Mary Richardson infamously slashed the Velasquez painting known as the Rokeby Venus in the National Gallery. The Mount Stewart exhibition includes a sheet of identity photographs of suffragettes issued to the National Portrait Gallery by the Metropolitan Police following the slashing incident." Were they wrong? And where did it get them? Their success was built on putting the nation’s issues ahead of their own by standing down for the First World War. Their co-operation with the state made it harder to ignore them than when they were blowing sh** up.
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Post by Rod1883 on Jun 9, 2020 17:18:30 GMT
Clearly, and as others have already said, you have your view Oldie and won't be swayed, and always seem to want to have the last word. That's fine everyone is entitled to their view - that's the benefit of the society we live in.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 17:20:55 GMT
Oldie Sadly many are advocating tearing down images from our history - as I said above - where does that stop? The Tolpuddle martyrs, the Suffragettes etc were of their time targeting issues of their time. What is the point of attacking images of and from different times, of people that did things that we don't agree with now, but those things have already been put right? In my view many of the BLM protests and protestors with their acts of vandalism and violence risk fuelling hatred rather than the stated aim of calmly trying to do the opposite. The media would have you believe it was “‘many” but did you know Rod that less than 2% of the population of Bristol signed the last petition to remove Colston’s statue? Why is that percentage so small as to be insignificant? Could it be that up until George Floyd’s killing people in Bristol had other things to worry about, like keeping a roof over their head, than a statue?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 17:31:33 GMT
Re Suffragettes "During the radical suffragette campaign, some women carried out attacks on works of art in an attempt to publicise their cause. In 1914, Mary Richardson infamously slashed the Velasquez painting known as the Rokeby Venus in the National Gallery. The Mount Stewart exhibition includes a sheet of identity photographs of suffragettes issued to the National Portrait Gallery by the Metropolitan Police following the slashing incident." Were they wrong? And where did it get them? Their success was built on putting the nation’s issues ahead of their own by standing down for the First World War. Their co-operation with the state made it harder to ignore them than when they were blowing sh** up. History is a matter of public record, either way you choose to portray it. Where did the Easter Uprising get the Republican's in Eire, eventually. Ultimately when a quiet push doesn't work, more dramatic action can be required. Like in Charlotte last night.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 17:36:48 GMT
Oldie Sadly many are advocating tearing down images from our history - as I said above - where does that stop? The Tolpuddle martyrs, the Suffragettes etc were of their time targeting issues of their time. What is the point of attacking images of and from different times, of people that did things that we don't agree with now, but those things have already been put right? In my view many of the BLM protests and protestors with their acts of vandalism and violence risk fuelling hatred rather than the stated aim of calmly trying to do the opposite. The media would have you believe it was “‘many” but did you know Rod that less than 2% of the population of Bristol signed the last petition to remove Colston’s statue? Why is that percentage so small as to be insignificant? Could it be that up until George Floyd’s killing people in Bristol had other things to worry about, like keeping a roof over their head, than a statue? Exactly...so why the fuss? The statue meant a lot more to Afro Caribbeans than John Smith who, more than likely, had no clue as to who Colston was and cared even less. If some white skinned folk did know who he was and what he stood for and chose to support the Afro Caribbean community, good on them.
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 9, 2020 17:41:19 GMT
Oldie Sadly many are advocating tearing down images from our history - as I said above - where does that stop? The Tolpuddle martyrs, the Suffragettes etc were of their time targeting issues of their time. What is the point of attacking images of and from different times, of people that did things that we don't agree with now, but those things have already been put right? In my view many of the BLM protests and protestors with their acts of vandalism and violence risk fuelling hatred rather than the stated aim of calmly trying to do the opposite. Re Suffragettes "During the radical suffragette campaign, some women carried out attacks on works of art in an attempt to publicise their cause. In 1914, Mary Richardson infamously slashed the Velasquez painting known as the Rokeby Venus in the National Gallery. The Mount Stewart exhibition includes a sheet of identity photographs of suffragettes issued to the National Portrait Gallery by the Metropolitan Police following the slashing incident." Were they wrong? The difference was that was a publicity campaign, not targeting a specific statue. Both were wrong in my opinion, but I can understand the Colston statue.
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Post by Gassy on Jun 9, 2020 17:48:27 GMT
Oldie Sadly many are advocating tearing down images from our history - as I said above - where does that stop? The Tolpuddle martyrs, the Suffragettes etc were of their time targeting issues of their time. What is the point of attacking images of and from different times, of people that did things that we don't agree with now, but those things have already been put right? In my view many of the BLM protests and protestors with their acts of vandalism and violence risk fuelling hatred rather than the stated aim of calmly trying to do the opposite. The media would have you believe it was “‘many” but did you know Rod that less than 2% of the population of Bristol signed the last petition to remove Colston’s statue? Why is that percentage so small as to be insignificant? Could it be that up until George Floyd’s killing people in Bristol had other things to worry about, like keeping a roof over their head, than a statue? Tbf, using that statistic is hardly the fairest way to put the argument. How many signed for Cummings to be sacked? 1.1m. Which is what, less than 2% of the UK population? Yet we know the true number is much higher, as suggested by YouGov.
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 9, 2020 17:52:07 GMT
And where did it get them? Their success was built on putting the nation’s issues ahead of their own by standing down for the First World War. Their co-operation with the state made it harder to ignore them than when they were blowing sh** up. History is a matter of public record, either way you choose to portray it. Where did the Easter Uprising get the Republican's in Eire, eventually. Ultimately when a quiet push doesn't work, more dramatic action can be required. Like in Charlotte last night. The participants in the Easter Rising were despised by the locals who had family fighting in the army, many were spat on by them as they passed by. It was British bungling with their court martial and execution (especially the ill ones brought in by wheelchair to face the firing squad) which was the catalyst for support.
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 9, 2020 17:58:35 GMT
Out of interest I would like to ask a question. In recent times, a public hatred towards Winston Churchill, largely from the younger population has arisen. A common way to put this down is "you would be speaking German if it wasn't for Churchill!" This is used as an attempt to fully delegitimise huge, valid criticisms of Churchill. However, Joseph Stalin is commonly thought of as a "crazed communist who was against free speech and killed tens of millions." But is the exact same not true for him? I think it's safe to say that Stalin had more of an impact on the overall outcome of the war than Churchill. So my point is thus, why is one idolised and criticism of him is suppressed, and the other is tarnished? The actions of both resulted in the deaths of millions, both held abhorrent views towards certain ethnic minorities. Should both not be seen in the same spotlight? Whatever that is. I will answer a question with a question if I may Should be ever erect a statue of anybody ever again? Is it even possible If an authorirty want to wack up a statue of somebody now or try to, no doubt some will dig up offensive tweets or something on other social media recorded having abused someone in street or something I think there's a very clear line of those who "deserve statues" and those who do not. Of course you could argue that judging by modern standards historical figures are almost always morally bankrupt, but oftentimes not. Take Mother Teresa for instance, she's a saint but her charity work has received widespread criticism, she would prioritise churches over hospitals in third world regions, the hospitals she built were ridiculously unhygienic and have been compared to the medical facilities of certain concentration camps, but she was willing to receive quality medical care for herself, but not for others. But no mob is ever going to take down a Mother Teresa statue, because there's a very big difference. Again, Liam Neeson's comments vs Mark Wahlberg having a history of abusing black people and of racist comments. There is a clear and cut line and the statue was never there for historical purposes, if it was there would have been clear information about the negative things Colston did, there wasn't. I just think it's clear who doesn't deserve a statue and who does, I mean, are you implying anyone can have a statue be placed in public? Oswald Mosley? Enoch Powell? The Moors' Murderers? No, of course not. None of these people deserve statues even though they'd suit the same purposes of "education."
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 9, 2020 18:01:39 GMT
I will answer a question with a question if I may Should be ever erect a statue of anybody ever again? Is it even possible If an authorirty want to wack up a statue of somebody now or try to, no doubt some will dig up offensive tweets or something on other social media recorded having abused someone in street or something On that topic the latest historical artefact under attack by the radical left I have seen is “do they know it’s Christmas time”- apparently a disgusting example of the white saviour which doesn’t take into account religious beliefs etc, etc. The rise of the perennially offended extreme left winger scouring history for things to be offended at makes me think of a quote that has been attributed to Churchill but actually has no real known origin, but yet feels so appropriate for where we are headed: “The fascists of the future will be anti-fascists” As someone who is on the far left it seems just as ridiculous seemingly seeking out very unpopular agendas from those on the far left to try and portray "extreme left wingers" as ridiculous, or something similar, it just seems strange to me. I've not seen this anywhere, I looked it up and I still couldn't find it. And it clearly doesn't have any support.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 18:04:21 GMT
The media would have you believe it was “‘many” but did you know Rod that less than 2% of the population of Bristol signed the last petition to remove Colston’s statue? Why is that percentage so small as to be insignificant? Could it be that up until George Floyd’s killing people in Bristol had other things to worry about, like keeping a roof over their head, than a statue? Exactly...so why the fuss? The statue meant a lot more to Afro Caribbeans than John Smith who, more than likely, had no clue as to who Colston was and cared even less. If some white skinned folk did know who he was and what he stood for and chose to support the Afro Caribbean community, good on them. In theory, but forgive me for my cynicism about how genuine that support is. I struggle to buy into it that there has been a genuine “great awokening” and not some new shiny bandwagon for the wannabe extreme left to jump on, just as they jumped on climate change and told us it was the greatest issue facing society, just as they clapped for our carers and demanded we all do the same, then they told us that actually, they got it wrong it’s not climate change or covid, racism is the biggest issue! See where I’m going? Forgive me for being cynical that these inverse “Karen’s” haven’t just found another vehicle to assuage their white (possibly middle class) guilt, a cause that will be dropped like a hot potato in short order in favour of trans rights or some such fluff. The lack of signatures for Colston’s removal is a case in point for me. No-one cared in any great numbers until Saturday and I don’t think the erasing of history should be subject to internet fads lead by people who need a new cause celebre for five minutes. Let’s revisit this in 9 months to a year and see if the talk is still about statues or systemic racism. Most likely we’ll have moved on to no deal Brexit and everyone will say “George Floyd...who was he? Edward Colston? Nah, don’t know him mate”. Sadly for us in Britain the cause that burns out rather than fades away is the story as old as time.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 18:07:18 GMT
The media would have you believe it was “‘many” but did you know Rod that less than 2% of the population of Bristol signed the last petition to remove Colston’s statue? Why is that percentage so small as to be insignificant? Could it be that up until George Floyd’s killing people in Bristol had other things to worry about, like keeping a roof over their head, than a statue? Tbf, using that statistic is hardly the fairest way to put the argument. How many signed for Cummings to be sacked? 1.1m. Which is what, less than 2% of the UK population? Yet we know the true number is much higher, as suggested by YouGov. Yeah, that’s a decent counter argument to be fair- although if that’s the case doesn’t it more show how scary it is how people aren’t motivated to even take an action such as sign a petition? The most basic act of democratic change?
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 9, 2020 18:10:25 GMT
Politics is horseshoe shaped, far left and far right are closer than they would admit. As Per the quote I posted earlier: “The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists”. I wondered how that could even make any sense when I first read it but seeing how history is being reviewed and re-spun and moral pressure applied to go agree with the findings I can really appreciate how it is very prescient. I hope your family situation is improving, btw. The quote is illegitimate, that's why. Just like the quotes "Anyone can deal with victory. Only the mighty can bear defeat." and "When diplomacy ends, War begins." and "The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes" shouldn't be taken seriously? Why? Because they're Adolf Hitler quotes. The quote "The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists" comes from a person who ordered a gathering of people protesting against fascism in Greece to be killed.
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 9, 2020 18:12:36 GMT
I will answer a question with a question if I may Should be ever erect a statue of anybody ever again? Is it even possible If an authorirty want to wack up a statue of somebody now or try to, no doubt some will dig up offensive tweets or something on other social media recorded having abused someone in street or something I think there's a very clear line of those who "deserve statues" and those who do not. Of course you could argue that judging by modern standards historical figures are almost always morally bankrupt, but oftentimes not. Take Mother Teresa for instance, she's a saint but her charity work has received widespread criticism, she would prioritise churches over hospitals in third world regions, the hospitals she built were ridiculously unhygienic and have been compared to the medical facilities of certain concentration camps, but she was willing to receive quality medical care for herself, but not for others. But no mob is ever going to take down a Mother Teresa statue, because there's a very big difference. Again, Liam Neeson's comments vs Mark Wahlberg having a history of abusing black people and of racist comments. There is a clear and cut line and the statue was never there for historical purposes, if it was there would have been clear information about the negative things Colston did, there wasn't. I just think it's clear who doesn't deserve a statue and who does, I mean, are you implying anyone can have a statue be placed in public? Oswald Mosley? Enoch Powell? The Moors' Murderers? No, of course not. None of these people deserve statues even though they'd suit the same purposes of "education." Well on today's standards we should remove the statue of Cromwell from outside Parliament,think that would get a lot of support from the Irish Catholic community.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 18:13:26 GMT
Re Suffragettes "During the radical suffragette campaign, some women carried out attacks on works of art in an attempt to publicise their cause. In 1914, Mary Richardson infamously slashed the Velasquez painting known as the Rokeby Venus in the National Gallery. The Mount Stewart exhibition includes a sheet of identity photographs of suffragettes issued to the National Portrait Gallery by the Metropolitan Police following the slashing incident." Were they wrong? The difference was that was a publicity campaign, not targeting a specific statue. Both were wrong in my opinion, but I can understand the Colston statue. That's a fair summary. Whether the tearing down of the Colston was more to do with an expression, a highly visible expression, of disgust or to create more noise about the campaign, who knows. For me they achieved both.
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