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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 9, 2020 18:14:20 GMT
Out of interest I would like to ask a question. In recent times, a public hatred towards Winston Churchill, largely from the younger population has arisen. A common way to put this down is "you would be speaking German if it wasn't for Churchill!" This is used as an attempt to fully delegitimise huge, valid criticisms of Churchill. However, Joseph Stalin is commonly thought of as a "crazed communist who was against free speech and killed tens of millions." But is the exact same not true for him? I think it's safe to say that Stalin had more of an impact on the overall outcome of the war than Churchill. So my point is thus, why is one idolised and criticism of him is suppressed, and the other is tarnished? The actions of both resulted in the deaths of millions, both held abhorrent views towards certain ethnic minorities. Should both not be seen in the same spotlight? Whatever that is. No. It’s certainly not a fact and therefore not safe to say. It’s merely your opinion which you are entitled to. The Russian-German pact from 1939-41 allowed Germany to overrun Europe and any British or Europeans killed in that time were due to the fact that Hitler was only fighting on one front, hence his ability to do what he did in that time. And I don’t think Stalin is “idolised” now, since the 70s there’s been a big revision in opinion about him. Perhaps it’s more to the idea of in this country we do have “free” speech whereas in Russia for much of the time since 1945 “free” speech was not allowed. UTG! And the tide of the war dramatically changed after the USSR entered it. Same with America. I've always seen our involvement in the overall ending of the war as that of Olivier Giroud in France's 2018 World Cup Win. And no I wasn't saying Stalin is idolised, I was saying Churchill was. Stalin is publicly tarnished. |
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 9, 2020 18:15:11 GMT
History is a matter of public record, either way you choose to portray it. Where did the Easter Uprising get the Republican's in Eire, eventually. Ultimately when a quiet push doesn't work, more dramatic action can be required. Like in Charlotte last night. The participants in the Easter Rising were despised by the locals who had family fighting in the army, many were spat on by them as they passed by. It was British bungling with their court martial and execution (especially the ill ones brought in by wheelchair to face the firing squad) which was the catalyst for support. Correct |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 18:15:43 GMT
History is a matter of public record, either way you choose to portray it. Where did the Easter Uprising get the Republican's in Eire, eventually. Ultimately when a quiet push doesn't work, more dramatic action can be required. Like in Charlotte last night. The participants in the Easter Rising were despised by the locals who had family fighting in the army, many were spat on by them as they passed by. It was British bungling with their court martial and execution (especially the ill ones brought in by wheelchair to face the firing squad) which was the catalyst for support. But the eventual outcome was... |
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 9, 2020 18:18:27 GMT
No. It’s certainly not a fact and therefore not safe to say. It’s merely your opinion which you are entitled to. The Russian-German pact from 1939-41 allowed Germany to overrun Europe and any British or Europeans killed in that time were due to the fact that Hitler was only fighting on one front, hence his ability to do what he did in that time. And I don’t think Stalin is “idolised” now, since the 70s there’s been a big revision in opinion about him. Perhaps it’s more to the idea of in this country we do have “free” speech whereas in Russia for much of the time since 1945 “free” speech was not allowed. UTG! And the tide of the war dramatically changed after the USSR entered it. Same with America. I've always seen our involvement in the overall ending of the war as that of Olivier Giroud in France's 2018 World Cup Win. And no I wasn't saying Stalin is idolised, I was saying Churchill was. Stalin is publicly tarnished. Your last couple of sentences are rubbish ,have you studied WW2 at all,what do you think we were doing in Normandy,Italy and Burma drinking tea!! |
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Post by Gassy on Jun 9, 2020 18:24:57 GMT
Tbf, using that statistic is hardly the fairest way to put the argument. How many signed for Cummings to be sacked? 1.1m. Which is what, less than 2% of the UK population? Yet we know the true number is much higher, as suggested by YouGov. Yeah, that’s a decent counter argument to be fair- although if that’s the case doesn’t it more show how scary it is how people aren’t motivated to even take an action such as sign a petition? The most basic act of democratic change? I agree. The highest ever was around a 2nd referendum which was something like 7m max! On a separate note: I see a huge crowd (could be thousands) of Coventry fans are gathering to celebrate in the town centre. No social distancing, no masks, no gloves & all drinking beers. Will they get the same reaction from so many about a 2nd wave? |
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 9, 2020 18:25:17 GMT
Right let’s flip it around Oldie, we know by now what you don’t like about Britain. Quite a lot, it seems. What DO you like about the U.K.? Say something positive about it, because I have no idea what you are likely to come up with... I know this wasn't directed at Oldie but I think I might answer too. It's more cultural things for me! I like Britain's food and delacies, fish and chips, English Breakfasts, sunday roast and so on. But as it's been one of my personal favourite exercises in my life I would say personally, Britain's music to me is always something that stands out about things I love about this country. The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Joy Division etc to more punk-orientated bands like the Clash and the Sex Pistols who are very politics-orientated lyrics wise. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 18:47:12 GMT
Yeah, that’s a decent counter argument to be fair- although if that’s the case doesn’t it more show how scary it is how people aren’t motivated to even take an action such as sign a petition? The most basic act of democratic change? I agree. The highest ever was around a 2nd referendum which was something like 7m max! On a separate note: I see a huge crowd (could be thousands) of Coventry fans are gathering to celebrate in the town centre. No social distancing, no masks, no gloves & all drinking beers. Will they get the same reaction from so many about a 2nd wave? Are they black skinned? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 18:53:33 GMT
Yeah, that’s a decent counter argument to be fair- although if that’s the case doesn’t it more show how scary it is how people aren’t motivated to even take an action such as sign a petition? The most basic act of democratic change? I agree. The highest ever was around a 2nd referendum which was something like 7m max! On a separate note: I see a huge crowd (could be thousands) of Coventry fans are gathering to celebrate in the town centre. No social distancing, no masks, no gloves & all drinking beers. Will they get the same reaction from so many about a 2nd wave? If Coventry fans do that then they are equally idiotic and selfish as the protestors or any other people that pre-arrange large gatherings at the moment. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 9, 2020 19:03:48 GMT
The participants in the Easter Rising were despised by the locals who had family fighting in the army, many were spat on by them as they passed by. It was British bungling with their court martial and execution (especially the ill ones brought in by wheelchair to face the firing squad) which was the catalyst for support. But the eventual outcome was... Loss of Home Rule which was all set prior to the First World War, partition, civil war in the south, lots of innocent deaths and continued strife for 70 odd years. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 9, 2020 19:05:39 GMT
And the tide of the war dramatically changed after the USSR entered it. Same with America. I've always seen our involvement in the overall ending of the war as that of Olivier Giroud in France's 2018 World Cup Win. And no I wasn't saying Stalin is idolised, I was saying Churchill was. Stalin is publicly tarnished. Your last couple of sentences are rubbish ,have you studied WW2 at all,what do you think we were doing in Normandy,Italy and Burma drinking tea!! First couple of sentences are wrong too. |
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 9, 2020 19:17:47 GMT
Your last couple of sentences are rubbish ,have you studied WW2 at all,what do you think we were doing in Normandy,Italy and Burma drinking tea!! First couple of sentences are wrong too. Otherwise it was fine😆😆 |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 19:23:05 GMT
But the eventual outcome was... Loss of Home Rule which was all set prior to the First World War, partition, civil war in the south, lots of innocent deaths and continued strife for 70 odd years. Let's not divert to far...but under whose terms was the proposed "Home Rule" Even the term sticks in the throat. Another thread perhaps |
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Post by gas2 on Jun 9, 2020 19:29:57 GMT
It's a good job we are not called he black Arabs anymore and will we have to change our nickname from he pirates to ?
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 9, 2020 19:41:24 GMT
Oldie Sadly many are advocating tearing down images from our history - as I said above - where does that stop? The Tolpuddle martyrs, the Suffragettes etc were of their time targeting issues of their time. What is the point of attacking images of and from different times, of people that did things that we don't agree with now, but those things have already been put right? In my view many of the BLM protests and protestors with their acts of vandalism and violence risk fuelling hatred rather than the stated aim of calmly trying to do the opposite. Re Suffragettes "During the radical suffragette campaign, some women carried out attacks on works of art in an attempt to publicise their cause. In 1914, Mary Richardson infamously slashed the Velasquez painting known as the Rokeby Venus in the National Gallery. The Mount Stewart exhibition includes a sheet of identity photographs of suffragettes issued to the National Portrait Gallery by the Metropolitan Police following the slashing incident." Were they wrong? Exactly Oldie, people like to look back and remember the non-violent bits of history. There was a very popular cartoon of Martin Luther King back in the 1960s standing next to a reporter with absolute chaos in the background, a war-zone with the caption being "I plan to lead another non-violent march tomorrow." With "non-violent" underlined. Accompanying it were the words "How can you, a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, be such a deceitful hypocrite, you're not fooling anyone but yourself." The point is these same people who are criticising the effects of a movement for such thing, but the core ideals of the movement focus on peaceful protests, just like MLK did. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 19:43:15 GMT
Yeah, that’s a decent counter argument to be fair- although if that’s the case doesn’t it more show how scary it is how people aren’t motivated to even take an action such as sign a petition? The most basic act of democratic change? I agree. The highest ever was around a 2nd referendum which was something like 7m max! On a separate note: I see a huge crowd (could be thousands) of Coventry fans are gathering to celebrate in the town centre. No social distancing, no masks, no gloves & all drinking beers. Will they get the same reaction from so many about a 2nd wave? Under normal circumstances they bloody well should do! Crowds are crowds- they aren’t allowed. Well, they *weren’t* allowed The moral argument has been well and truly lost by now. After the weekend gatherings are limited to no more than 20,000 it seems 🤷♂️ But the Coventry fans are chicken feed- the real issue is when Liverpool win the league and Leeds win the championship. Imagine that? Try telling their fans to go home and save lives after the police stood by and watched 137k break the rules. I couldn’t blame those fans for feeling aggrieved and kicking off if the Police start getting involved and issuing fines either. Lockdown is over, let’s face it- let people just do what they want now. We can only wait and see what the fallout is and if it’s severe, hold an inquest in the court of public opinion. |
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 9, 2020 19:45:13 GMT
And the tide of the war dramatically changed after the USSR entered it. Same with America. I've always seen our involvement in the overall ending of the war as that of Olivier Giroud in France's 2018 World Cup Win. And no I wasn't saying Stalin is idolised, I was saying Churchill was. Stalin is publicly tarnished. Your last couple of sentences are rubbish ,have you studied WW2 at all,what do you think we were doing in Normandy,Italy and Burma drinking tea!! To pick out Normandy for instance, there were 156,000 soldiers during the Normandy landings, the vast majority of which were not British. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 19:45:42 GMT
It's a good job we are not called he black Arabs anymore and will we have to change our nickname from he pirates to ? That’s an interesting point, I guess you are being facetious but if we are going to revisit slavery and remove any traces of it we should not be glorifying pirate culture given the crimes they committed. Nor should we be the black Arabs. What can we reference instead? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 9, 2020 19:47:24 GMT
Loss of Home Rule which was all set prior to the First World War, partition, civil war in the south, lots of innocent deaths and continued strife for 70 odd years. Let's not divert to far...but under whose terms was the proposed "Home Rule" Even the term sticks in the throat. Another thread perhaps Bearing in mind that Asquith needed the Irish Parliamentary Party as coalition allies and the Unionists were set against it, I'd suggest it was one of those messy compromises. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 9, 2020 19:49:41 GMT
Your last couple of sentences are rubbish ,have you studied WW2 at all,what do you think we were doing in Normandy,Italy and Burma drinking tea!! To pick out Normandy for instance, there were 156,000 soldiers during the Normandy landings, the vast majority of which were not British. Vast majority? Also, how did they get there? Swim the while width of the channel? |
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 9, 2020 19:50:02 GMT
Your last couple of sentences are rubbish ,have you studied WW2 at all,what do you think we were doing in Normandy,Italy and Burma drinking tea!! First couple of sentences are wrong too. Anyone can open up a history book and find out that the vast majority of Germany's expansion throughout the war was done pre-USSR involvement, and although it's true that Germany were initially winning their battle against the USSR the overall balance of the war changed during the Battle of Stalingrad. |
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