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Post by axegas on Jun 10, 2020 19:56:05 GMT
I can't speak for the people, I have no further information as I have just been told. Let me hazard a guess, Imperialism? Question Where's the dateline going to be ,the Romans massive imperialists,the Normans? No-one celebrates or admires the Romans or the Normans, people study and learn about them and the impact they had on history. That's the difference between them and someone like Colston, who has a statue dedicated to him for the things he did for the city of Bristol. I don't think anyone's trying to say, lets erase him from history and cover up the things that he's done. Not wanting a statue of slavers is just not wanting an individual to be celebrated by a modern day society which has moved on and completely rejects slavery in all it's forms. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 19:58:07 GMT
I can't speak for the people, I have no further information as I have just been told. Let me hazard a guess, Imperialism? Question Where's the dateline going to be ,the Romans massive imperialists,the Normans? I cannot answer for others, whatever their race. For me, after 1700. Which sort of reflects my period of interest and the period my personal education focused on. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 19:59:40 GMT
Question Where's the dateline going to be ,the Romans massive imperialists,the Normans? No-one celebrates or admires the Romans or the Normans, people study and learn about them and the impact they had on history. That's the difference between them and someone like Colston, who has a statue dedicated to him for the things he did for the city of Bristol. I don't thing anyone's trying to say, lets erase him from history and cover up the things that he's done. Not wanting a statue of slavers is just not wanting an individual to be celebrated by a modern day society which has moved on and completely rejects slavery in all it's forms. You can cut that out. Perfectly reasonable and considered responses... whatever next👍 |
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 10, 2020 20:06:33 GMT
Question Where's the dateline going to be ,the Romans massive imperialists,the Normans? No-one celebrates or admires the Romans or the Normans, people study and learn about them and the impact they had on history. That's the difference between them and someone like Colston, who has a statue dedicated to him for the things he did for the city of Bristol. I don't think anyone's trying to say, lets erase him from history and cover up the things that he's done. Not wanting a statue of slavers is just not wanting an individual to be celebrated by a modern day society which has moved on and completely rejects slavery in all it's forms. The Italians certainly do. I am ambivalent about Colstons statue however,I don't think anyone celebrates him most people just walk by his statue and probably don't notice it . |
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 10, 2020 20:09:12 GMT
That is true but what if the majority refuse or don't want to be educated? Their choice, it's still a free world, for some. They choose to be cannon or factory fodder, the choice is entirely theirs. Who would? Oh yes Will be interesting to see how it plays out. |
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 10, 2020 20:13:21 GMT
Question Where's the dateline going to be ,the Romans massive imperialists,the Normans? No-one celebrates or admires the Romans..... ,_Tower_Hill Not strictly true....  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 20:20:34 GMT
Thanks for this. I laughed out loud over the bit about "the head does not match the body" Does he post on here? |
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 10, 2020 20:24:11 GMT
Thanks for this. I laughed out loud over the bit about "the head does not match the body" Does he post on here? Yep...on here as Trajangas....you must have seen his posts. But my Latin ain’t that good so not sure what the heck he’s talking about.... |
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Post by axegas on Jun 10, 2020 20:28:00 GMT
No-one celebrates or admires the Romans or the Normans, people study and learn about them and the impact they had on history. That's the difference between them and someone like Colston, who has a statue dedicated to him for the things he did for the city of Bristol. I don't think anyone's trying to say, lets erase him from history and cover up the things that he's done. Not wanting a statue of slavers is just not wanting an individual to be celebrated by a modern day society which has moved on and completely rejects slavery in all it's forms. The Italians certainly do. I am ambivalent about Colstons statue however,I don't think anyone celebrates him most people just walk by his statue and probably don't notice it . I think the Romans are more "admired" for what they left behind in terms of artwork and architecture rather than for the practices they had or how they achieved their conquests. I feel like with a whole society it's easier to pick out the bits they did right and ignore the rest like we do with Roman architecture. You can't really celebrate Hitlers artwork and conveniently forget the rest of what he did can you. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 20:28:27 GMT
Thanks for this. I laughed out loud over the bit about "the head does not match the body" Does he post on here? Yep...on here as Trajangas....you must have seen his posts. But my Latin ain’t that good so not sure what the heck he’s talking about.... 😂😂😂😂 Nice one |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 20:29:24 GMT
The Italians certainly do. I am ambivalent about Colstons statue however,I don't think anyone celebrates him most people just walk by his statue and probably don't notice it . I think the Romans are more "admired" for what they left behind in terms of artwork and architecture rather than for the practices they had or how they achieved their conquests. I feel like with a whole society it's easier to pick out the bits they did right and ignore the rest like we do with Roman architecture. You can't really celebrate Hitlers artwork and conveniently forget the rest of what he did can you. Don't get drawn and deflected |
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Post by axegas on Jun 10, 2020 20:31:19 GMT
I think the Romans are more "admired" for what they left behind in terms of artwork and architecture rather than for the practices they had or how they achieved their conquests. I feel like with a whole society it's easier to pick out the bits they did right and ignore the rest like we do with Roman architecture. You can't really celebrate Hitlers artwork and conveniently forget the rest of what he did can you. Don't get drawn and deflected huh? |
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 10, 2020 20:38:25 GMT
No-one celebrates or admires the Romans or the Normans, people study and learn about them and the impact they had on history. That's the difference between them and someone like Colston, who has a statue dedicated to him for the things he did for the city of Bristol. I don't think anyone's trying to say, lets erase him from history and cover up the things that he's done. Not wanting a statue of slavers is just not wanting an individual to be celebrated by a modern day society which has moved on and completely rejects slavery in all it's forms. The Italians certainly do. I am ambivalent about Colstons statue however,I don't think anyone celebrates him most people just walk by his statue and probably don't notice it . They won’t now.. |
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 11, 2020 2:40:43 GMT
I actually found this article quite astounding. Barbara Reynolds focuses almost solely on the violent consequences of the Black Lives Matter movement, but focuses on the non-violent consequences of Martin Luther King's protests. Anyone who does even a shed of research knows that Martin Luther King's protests oftentimes led to riots and violence, with Martin Luther King never involved. Although Martin Luther King did say: "Certain conditions continue to exist in our society, which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation’s summers of riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention." Barbara Reynolds, very naively, focuses on the violent consequences of the movement and act all high and mighty like Martin Luther King's followers in the 1960s were fully and 100% committed to a non-violent approach, that's anything from the case. The same things we're seeing today were seen then, if not worse. The vast, vast majority of Black Lives Matter supporters, exactly the same as in Martin Luther King's times, advocate for a non-violent approach. In fact it's completely and utter bonkers to me that people are willing to condemn an entire movement from the actions of people that 9 times out of 10 weren't even there to protest anyway and are joining on the bandwagon. I just think saying "back in my day, we were all non-violent, today they're just doing hate speech and being violent" is outstandingly ignorant. |
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 11, 2020 3:02:35 GMT
Lots of people do care but I get what you’re saying. I didn’t want to play down the racism that’s pretty endemic in many circles but inequalities, social mobility and poverty underpins much of it. All these issues are part of it. I’d go on to say that many people in authority in this country actually don’t want to deal with poverty, inequalities or provide equality if opportunity. They have a vested interest in the maintenance of the status quo, it suits them to do so. But that really is a very big issue which lies at the heart of politics in this country. UTG! Bingo Wareham. As always, it’s great changing your picture on Facebook and going for a day out to shout a bit, but how many will still be on board when they are being asked to pay more tax to fund BLM programmes or give up their child’s university place to someone from a disadvantaged background? That’s when it becomes real for the “woke left” and you find out which side they were really on all along. People aren't advocating for the need for diversity over quality 365, if the child doesn't get a university place due to someone from a disadvantaged background now getting it instead, in an ideal world it'd be because the one with disadvantaged background achieves better A-Level grades. And in fact oftentimes this is almost always a good thing. You can't really complain on missing out on a university placement because someone is better than you, the difficulty is those from a disadvantaged background oftentimes don't have the circumstances to go to a Cambridge, to an Oxford, even if they're capable. On the need for extra tax as well, I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of people at the protests were under the age of 40, if not everyone. In the most recent election when Jeremy Corbyn suffered an "embarrassing defeat" (it was still better than 3 of the last 6 Tory performances, but hey ho), in which he advocated for complete and utter taxation reform, he garnered more support of any other party from the under 40s. Of course this was definitely not the case for the over 40s, as the election result showed. The point being that these people protesting obviously are willing to pay more tax to fund BLM programmes, they've been advocating for a party that wants them to pay a lot more tax for the greater good. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 10:02:10 GMT
Don't get drawn and deflected huh? Think he's saying don't fall for the logical fallacy arguments. Some people are equating the removal of a controversial statue to the removal of the pyramids or Roman empire, as though if one were true then the other must be. It's a classic logical fallacy argument trap that is easy to get dragged in to, and avoids the original issue. |
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 11, 2020 11:13:46 GMT
Think he's saying don't fall for the logical fallacy arguments. Some people are equating the removal of a controversial statue to the removal of the pyramids or Roman empire, as though if one were true then the other must be. It's a classic logical fallacy argument trap that is easy to get dragged in to, and avoids the original issue. Not true,I asked a perfectly straight forward question ie:where is the dateline,Oldie kindly replied with the 17th Century which in many respects is fine. There was no trap just a question as surprisingly I am interested in other folks opinions. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 11:21:52 GMT
Falling like confetti over in the States Check out this story: Statue of Confederate President tumbles as US faces renewed culture war flip.it/Ttk.DM from Flipboard. The next couple of days in Virginia and the Carolinas is going to be interesting |
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Post by inee on Jun 11, 2020 12:26:47 GMT
Here's a different take on it.
Would it still be a racist, if he was killed not because of his colour but because he and the cop had a beef with each other, see it is simply a murder not a racist murder, and the cop should get recharged as I think is it murder 1 (can't work out why the yanks have so many charges for murder)as it seems it was purely an opportunity to inflict pain. or you could say it was premeditated as because of an ongoing beef with George Floyd saw it as an opportunity to inflict maximum pain.
Thoughts
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 12:36:25 GMT
Here's a different take on it. Would it still be a racist, if he was killed not because of his colour but because he and the cop had a beef with each other, see it is simply a murder not a racist murder, and the cop should get recharged as I think is it murder 1 (can't work out why the yanks have so many charges for murder)as it seems it was purely an opportunity to inflict pain. or you could say it was premeditated as because of an ongoing beef with George Floyd saw it as an opportunity to inflict maximum pain. Thoughts My opinion is that you cannot look at the Floyd murder in isolation. Rather it's a pattern of behaviour, a pattern of custom and practice, where Afro Americans are more likely to die at the hands of the police in the USA when measured as a % of the population, more likely to receive longer jail sentences, more likely to be subject to discriminatory practice in the work place. The cop who committed this murder was part of that atmosphere. |
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